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#31
July 5th, 2009, 01:46 PM
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__________________
Mom To Matt and Murphy- Born March 18/08 English Mastiffs. AHHHH They are a year old already!!!! 
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#32
July 5th, 2009, 02:22 PM
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It just sounds like the dog was telling the other dog to back off his water, this is not nessicarily aggression, I would not want someone I did not know comming over and getting in my face while I am drinking eaither it is not unreasonable for a dog to react in this matter in order to discipline the other dog. These situations can cause an agressive incident but it is usually just a "telling off" and should be corrected to stop escalation but not punished. Clacking your dog in the face teaches him nothing and is counter productive to bond forming, he did not snap at the owner but at the other dog who invaded his space. Infact I find hand feeding and watering is a great bonding experience as is projects the owner as the provider of a valuable resource. This experience could cause the relationship permenant damage by producing a resource and punishing the dog for accepting it.
KItona - I agree with you (I just realized you already made the same point as I did) Last edited by cell; July 5th, 2009 at 03:03 PM.
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#33
July 5th, 2009, 03:02 PM
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__________________
 Chase (Friendly Resident Wigglebum) - Border Collie/Lab/Shepherd X Kailey (Misunderstood Gentle Beauty) - GSD & foster failure #1   Rupert (Gold-Medal Winner of the 3 a.m. Kitty Destruction Olympics  ) Heidi - RIP my sweet baby girl
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#34
July 5th, 2009, 05:49 PM
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First of all, the proper way to describe an under the jaw correction a la Brad is 2 fingers, moving at a 45 degree angle to the jaw (NOT 90), in a very quick movement (SPEED, not FORCE, there's a big difference). Not a punch, although to someone who doesn't know better, they could describe it that way without thinking about how inaccurate it sounds. Corrections aren't for everyone, or every dog. HOWEVER, if the dog is acting possessive of something it is not acceptable to respond the way that dog did.
Personally, my dog gets a correction, whether it's by leash, verbal, and yes, even facial, when he gets possessive over water, food, his bone, or a toy for some examples. He also gets said item taken away. Why is it important to give a strong correction you may ask? Well, I don't have kids, but there are two little girls next door who love to play with my dog, and I would hate to see anything scary or bad happen to them. Even if he growled while they picked up one of his toys could be devastating to them, and very scary. One of them does have a fear of dogs already, and used to run into the house every time we came home with Fizz (even just pulling in with the car would send her running into the house crying), but now she'll come up to him and pet him. But if he ever reacted with a growl or anything out of possessiveness, it would set her back months for being comfortable around dogs. Possessiveness is not cool and your dog needs to know that. There are many ways to do it, the under the jaw correction is one of them. Brad may have chosen that because other corrections weren't working, or they hadn't been correcting him properly before and the ante needed to be upped. For example, your dog chews up his bed. You give him a verbal scolding, and put him in a time out for 10 min. Next day, you come home to your couch chewed up. Do you do the same correction, probably not. Yes to the scolding, but maybe the time out is for half an hour this time. So maybe in this case if leash corrections weren't working, he showed them an under the jaw correction. Just like at the park, maybe my dog corrects another dog with a growl and a bark first. If it happens again, he may snap or bite (without breaking skin). I've only seen him do it once, and it was when a dog jumped up at me to lick my face, and I ended up being very close to having a broken nose. And I've seen other dogs doing the same to him if he was being too rambunctious. So, I apologize for the length of this post, but I just wanted to stress that letting a dog get away with possessiveness is really not cool, and isn't "normal dog behaviour". I know a lot of you don't believe in physical corrections, and that's ok, that's your choice. I personally think that they have their place, and aren't for every dog, or every owner. But they do have a purpose for some. There are a lot of training methods out there, some I agree with, some I don't, just like all of you. But please don't paint a trainer as an abuser when you don't know the whole story. Brad's a good guy, and I'll vouch for him any day of the week and twice on Tuesday. PS - The original quote was from someone on Brad's site who is training with someone certified under Brad. Next time you want to quote something from another site, at least post a link so that people can read the whole thing and know where it came from, and what context it was posted in. Last edited by Lynne_B; July 5th, 2009 at 06:00 PM. Reason: added the PS part
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#35
July 5th, 2009, 06:00 PM
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Omg i would have been out of there so quick with quite a few choice words to say the least!!!
__________________
'God turns clouds inside out to make fluffy beds for the dogs in dogs heaven,and when they are tired from running around and barking, the dogs find a cloud bed for sleeping, god watches over each one of them and there are no bad dreams'.
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#36
July 5th, 2009, 07:12 PM
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I can tell you that kind of correction would send my male into defense mode. Brad would have never known what was coming.
There are always ways of correcting a dog, and yes some dogs need a little more of a correction, but I find that sort of technique to be a little barbaric.
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#37
July 5th, 2009, 08:07 PM
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Lynne, I don't think anyone has said they think possesivness is cool. I don't think anyone here allows it and thinks its cute. We all want dogs that can play and be trusted with kids.
Maybe it is the fact that I usually deal with rescue dogs, and my lab is the first non rescue I have ever had. The last thing I would ever do to a dog that already has a troubled past, no matter how possesive they are is act aggressivley with them. I will be the authority, they will know who the boss is, but it will be done in a way that they will always know that I can be trusted. I don't want them thinking that at anytime when they are reacting with what to them is a normal doggie reaction is by punishing them and breaking trust. That dog did not know what it was doing was wrong, there is a difference between a dog that KNOWS sit and refuses getting a minor collar correction and a dog doing something that it would not have pre thought, or known was wrong and getting punched in the face for it. There are ways of having a dog know that they are at the bottom of the totem pole without being aggressive, period. And I will always strongly say that treating a dog that is acting aggressivly with aggressivness is a recipe for trouble. Perhaps Brand knows what he is doing, but promoting these methods can cause trouble. WHat if someone at home has a large aggressive dog and the next time it acts up they hit the dog. Then what if the dog escalates it? What if it is done with the wrong energy? What if the dog does not see the person as their alpha? Could be VERY disatrous. I am sure that if I ever chose to hurt my dog she would act very submissive to me when I did it, but the fact is that she is already submissive to me and that is from always being positive and giving her time to think in each situation and a chance to do it right. I really really don't like the idea of hitting dogs, punishing dogs, pinning dogs.. When there are better more positive ways, that also help build a bond and trust. And with rescue dogs those are wayyyy more important. Also treating a dog that is already submissive with force when it does something not acceptable can lead to all kinds of issues, mistrust, submissive peeing, head shyness, fear, ect.
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#40
July 5th, 2009, 11:08 PM
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luvmylab, I totally agree with you. The reason why I pointed out all the stuff about possessiveness is because a few of the responses sounded like it wasn't understood what kind of reaction the dog was having. Also, any time I've talked to Brad about corrections, or one of his trainers, they will tell you to get someone to show you how to do it properly before doing it. And like I said, not every dog will need a correction. Every dog, when it comes to training, is trained differently, because every dog has different personality traits and things that it likes and dislikes. A dog that has a bad past, whether it was abandoned, or neglected, or grew up in a puppy mill, or the past is just plain unknown have to be treated very carefully, because you never know how they'll react. So I guess what I'm getting at is that if you are unsure of how to train, or if you have questions about any training method you should consult a trainer or a behaviourist (or both if they do both).
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#42
July 6th, 2009, 07:39 AM
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here are many ways to do it, the under the jaw correction is one of them. Brad may have chosen that because other corrections weren't working, or they hadn't been correcting him properly before and the ante needed to be upped. For example, your dog chews up his bed. You give him a verbal scolding, and put him in a time out for 10 min. Next day, you come home to your couch chewed up. Do you do the same correction, probably not. Yes to the scolding, but maybe the time out is for half an hour this time.
Sorry, I'm a certified dog trainer, and you can get much better results with postive reinforcements.. If you come home and your dog has chewed his bed, you do NOT punish the dog. A dog has about a 4 sec cause and effect mental ability. If when you came home and saw the bed, (this is an example), and he was chewing on a chew toy, and you punished him, he will learn that chewing on a chew toy was wrong. He will not be able to say...OH...I chewed up my bed a few hrs ago, and now my owners are unhappy with me doing that so they will punish me. NOT>>>>> come on, use some common logic. He may know from looking at you that something has made you unhappy, the change in your face, the lifting of your shoulders, your deep intake of air, but he doesn't know that you are mad about something that happened a few hrs before. I don't mean to come across like a witch, but all I can say is that anyone can claim to be a trainer, but it takes a lot of work, studying and practice, practice, practice, with good results. I hope people don't start believing whoever this person is, and if they do, then I'm very sorry for the pets. Mary
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#43
July 6th, 2009, 07:52 AM
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[QUOTE=Lynne_B;797332]For example, your dog chews up his bed. You give him a verbal scolding, and put him in a time out for 10 min. Next day, you come home to your couch chewed up. Do you do the same correction, probably not.QUOTE]
If you verbally correct at this point - it's pointless. I do not believe that any form of hitting or smacking is a good form of discipline. Human hands are that for feeding and stroking, not physical punishment in such a manner. Someone in this thread put things very well. I cannot quote perfectly but in a nutshell she mentions that she cannot convince her dog that she is another canine. I think that this is one of the most enlightening things that anyone has ever said.
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#44
July 6th, 2009, 08:03 AM
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If I came home and saw the dog bed chewe up I would not do a scolding and a time out. I did not witness the chewing. If I came home, saw the dog bed, and punished the dog, what exactly does the dog think he is punished for? For coming to great you when you came in the door in his mind... THAT would be why next time the couch is chewed, you just created a problem...
It is like people that punish their dog for running away.. The dog takes off, you chase it, call it, hang treats, start yelling across the neighborhood wanna go for a car car ride?? Then you catch the dog and you scold it... Well, now you punished the dog for coming to you, next time good luck... No matter how mad you are, when you catch the dog you have to reward it, next time the dog will come faster... Sorry, but if you don't witness the behavior, it is gone and over in their mind, try keeping the dog away from things you don't want chewed when you are not around in the future.
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#45
July 6th, 2009, 08:38 AM
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#46
July 6th, 2009, 08:52 AM
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Debbie
__________________
~Friendship is like a bank account. You can't continue to draw on it without making deposits~ ~Tegan 9 year old yellow lab~ ~Wilbur 9 year old LH cat~ ~Mirabelle 18 mos dsh~ ~O'Shawnnessey 18 mos dsh~ ~Darby 1 year old dsh~ ~Mindy 7 yr old shih tzu~ ~Dexter 10yr old Salmon (large goldfish)
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#47
July 6th, 2009, 08:58 AM
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Why does he not teach the dog 'back up' when things get dicey? Yesterday, a rottie mix interupted a party at my friends. At the party was a lab and my foster. The dog was dominent and when he went for my little one, I just stood up, pointed and used a big voice saying 'back up'. I am certain that this dog did not understand (as we found his french owners 3 hours later) but the gesture was enough to advise him that he was too close too fast. (BTW - we did intergrate all 3 in the secured backyard and everything went smooth....nice dog).
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#48
July 6th, 2009, 09:22 AM
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A sudden hand movement towards the face of any animal, humans included, is just plain rude. It's a violent aggressive action, therefor has no place in the ''training'' of anything! What would happen if you were to do that to another human, or horse or strange dog? You'd be lucky to not get charged, kicked or bit. Sorry, I just don't get the whole ''trust through aggressive domination'' thing that these so-called ''trainers'' employ. My dogs get good solid intelligent leadership from me, not b!t&#% slaps!
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#49
July 6th, 2009, 09:23 AM
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How do you know that dogs don't have memory? Did someone tell you? Has there been a study or 2 done to that effect? Many of the sources I have read have been about half and half for trainers that say they do and don't have memory.
I think dogs do have memory, of good things, bad things, lots of things. My dog remembers the way to the park vs. the vets office, he remembered where his "pee area" was at my husbands grandparents house when the last time we were there was a year ago. He remembers that hubbie's grandma gives him good neck scratches because the first thing he did when he saw her was went up to her, sat, and put his head up (we hadn't seen them in about a year, and usually he's just uber excited and sniffing and licking). So, I'm sorry, but I disagree when you say that dogs don't have memory and wouldn't know what they are being punished for. But if you want, you can use the same example I cited and put in the assumption that they were caught in the act for whatever they were doing, as that wasn't really the point I was trying to get across, you could use anything, like getting caught grabbing something off the counter, or out of the garbage, or whatever. Also, I am not a trainer, nor have I ever claimed to be, I've just worked with Brad before. Also, I do use positive reinforcement (praise, no treats), but I do correct for bad behaviour as well. My dog is very loving, gentle, loves attention, has a lot of energy (and I love it, he's got a great personality). He loves to play with us and with other dogs, and he's very strong and smart. I'm not here telling you to use these training methods though, just explaining why they make sense to me. You use whatever you feel works best for you and your dog, as there are a ton of training techniques out there.
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#50
July 6th, 2009, 09:32 AM
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I have a few comments on this
1. I don't think it's unreasonable for a dog to warn another dog if they're doing something they don't like, whether it's invading space, challenging over an object, whatever. Dogs are allowed to say "back off, it's mine" PROVIDED that it's not a human, and object/space is in fact "theirs". Correcting dogs who growl warning is like taking the diffuser off a time bomb. In this case I don't know that I'd even correct the snap. It would depend on the dog and the situation, which is impossible to know unless you witnessed it. It could be that the other dog was displaying other rude or challenging behaviours at the time. I don't correct my dogs when they correct each otherusually, it's how they communicate. I will, however, correct my dogs if they are guarding something innapropriate, like MY food or MY space. 2. If the person was in fact instructed to "punch" the dog, i.e. hit it with a closed fist, then this is obviously not cool. However, if the person was instructed to administer a physical correction with their hand...i.e. a poke with a finger or two to interrup the unwanted behaviour, I don't necessarily have a problem with it. SOME dogs CAN respond well to this type of correction in SOME circumstances. Again, it depends on the dog. Any type of physical correction with Jaida is completely lost on her, it means nothing...she rarely displays any behaviours that would warrant it anyways. Gracie, however, will get a poke on her flank with either a finger or a toe if she starts to fixate on another dog in an agressive manner. It immediately interrups the escalation of her aggressive behaviour and turns her attention to me, far more effectively than even a leash correction. Then I'm able to praise the bejeezus out of her for her calm body language and her attentiveness to me. There's a huge difference between a poke and a punch. Again, though, I'm not 100% convinced that any type of correction was needed in this situation.
__________________
Owned by: Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11) Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9) Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4) Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3) Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months) Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months) __________ Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011)  Riley and Molly
Last edited by bendyfoot; July 6th, 2009 at 10:29 AM. Reason: misworded s/t
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#51
July 6th, 2009, 09:40 AM
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Lynne B - you know I luv ya but I am going to say this. Indeed dogs do have memory. I deal with abused rescues and that memory is sometimes very difficult to change. The memory and associations are negative. They are usually memories that involves hand movements. Anyways - that is just a 'BenMax' way of thinking.
At the same time I do agree with Bendyfoot as to using hands in mannerism that curb behaviour but I am sorry.....punching is not one of them Lynne B.
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#52
July 6th, 2009, 10:03 AM
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 Thanks Benmax, if it makes you feel better I don't agree with punching either! (and I do value your opinion as well as others here). I think punching or hitting or kicking a dog is stupid, and can cause problems like everyone else has said, I guess what I'm getting at is that I think this person wasn't describing it properly. The way that Brad teaches how to do an under the jaw correction is not punching. I just wanted to clarify that, because everyone reads something about Brad doing a physical correction, and jumps all over him calling out "abuse! abuse!". I have a lot of respect for the man, so I feel compelled to stick up for him, he's a public figure that everyone seems to want to take down all the time. And yes, physical corrections are not always a good idea, especially if it is a dog, like you described, that is hand shy, as it can cause even more damage, and the dog could shut down. Some dogs can't even handle you being in their physical space, or manouvering them with a collar and leash. Some dogs have never been socialized properly and have to be handled very carefully around other dogs and people. And like I said, it's always a good idea to contact a professional when you are unsure of what to do. Physical corrections are only a very small part of training, and aren't for every person, or every dog by any means, it's just a tool in your toolbox of training. The biggest tools we use with our dog are attention, body language, and praise. And the majority of what we learned has been from Brad and his methods.
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#53
July 6th, 2009, 10:10 AM
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Lynne B what we learned has not been from Brad. I have learned things from different trainers and behaviouralists. These trainers range from those who train police dogs to the high level trainer. I never heard of Brad until I saw him on TV. He does not have it Lynne B. He is not a natural. Sorry to disagree but just by his mannerism on TV with the people and the dogs, this guy is clumbsy, unnatural and fake in my opinion. He is just not my mentor when it comes to training. Please tell us more about this jaw method thing. I really want to visualize it and understand.
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#54
July 6th, 2009, 10:14 AM
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Touch for a distraction is ok. If anyone has ever see Cesar Milan show the dog whisper, you will see how he does the touch to break the thought process in dogs. Even with being attacked, he doesn't punch a dog. If the person describing the situation was doing so poorly, then perhaps something else was going on. You can touch a dog without hurting it. I would never touch a dog with my hand under or on the head. dogs have very good memories. What they don't have is a congnative ability to say that action A at 10am and human reaction at 1pm have anything in common. If you have a child, and he does something in the morning, you don't go to him in the afternoon and put him in time out. It will only work if the time out is directly after the offense. that is how dogs learn. If B always happens after A, and B isn't pleasant, the A will stop happening (over time).
Mary
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#55
July 6th, 2009, 10:37 AM
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#56
July 6th, 2009, 10:54 AM
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Firstly - for police dog training I cannot share much with you as I only saw the end results - never A-Z.
As for this technique - I can only imagine this as being dangerous to the human hand with a dog that is growling and has a high value item in or around his mouth, next to another dog. I am not sure about this technique as personally, I would not try it.
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#57
July 6th, 2009, 10:58 AM
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I don't think a correction on the face is wise either...um, that's where the pointy bits are!!! The idea of coming in quickly there, too, doesn't seem like a great idea, JMO.
If the poke(?) was meant as an interruption, the rump or the shoulder probably would have been just as effective and much safer than the face area.
__________________
Owned by: Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11) Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9) Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4) Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3) Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months) Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months) __________ Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011) Riley and Molly
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#58
July 6th, 2009, 11:00 AM
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#60
July 6th, 2009, 06:44 PM
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Bendy I love it, you are so right, when a dog is growling, I agree it is a good idea to stay far away from them pointy bits!
YES Lynne dog's have memory, yup! But how does one communicate with a dog to attach an action with a previous un-witnessed behavior? The dog chews bed, you come home and discover, now, how do you punish the dog for this, and attaching said punishment to the bed chewing? You cannot, whatever the dog is doing at that moment is what will be corrected, dogs have memories, but they live in the moment. That is why when a pup poops on the floor while you were not watching you should rub your nose in it and not the dogs, punishing a dog for pooping on the floor 6 hours ago is not going to get you anywhere. I have seen Brads show, He has some valid points, but he is far from the best trainer, he is just crazy, and that makes for good t.v. I DISAGREE with you, about everyone learning techniques from him. If anything people have taken more from cesar, now all people want to be the alpha.. Pinning a dog 22 times, was probably the silliest thing I saw, If you make a dog do anything 22 times you will see a change, get the dog to sit 22 times a day, trust me, after a week, your dog will have learned sit, and will respond to you better at all times, no need to pin it. I have learned from trainers that have been working with dogs since before Brad probably ever had a dog, I have a behaviorist, several trainers, mentors that are psycho good at what they do with their dogs, I learn from each one. I wouldn't watch Brads show and think he is the greatest trainer ever, lets only listen to him. I think his people skills need a little polishing..
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