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Old June 7th, 2007, 02:08 PM
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High PH level from urinalysis - Answered by Dr. Lee

My cat, Oliver, just got over a UTI. I took him to the vet for a follow-up urinalysis after the meds were complete. I just got a call that the urinalysis is totally clear - no signs of crystals, blood, or infection.

However, the vet did say that his PH level was high and I should change his diet to ************* or some other food by ******* -- and of course these are the foods that the vet sells. That really irks me. I wouldn't trust ***** pet foods ever. It's garbage and one of cat foods was involved in the gluten recall. Amazing that even the "prescription" foods are full of crap too. I have no idea about this Medi-Cal stuff, but I did read one can when I was there and it was full of by-products and filler too. I really get the feeling that its all an attempt to pad the clinics bottom line.

Any thoughts? Any recommendations on how to combat the "high PH" by not using horrible food? Btw.. I am currently feeding him Fromm Four-Star Salmon & Veg dry in the morning and he can feed on anytime, and Lick My Chops wet foods once in the evening.

Thanks.

Last edited by Ford; June 7th, 2007 at 04:40 PM.
  #2  
Old June 7th, 2007, 04:22 PM
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I hope Oliver is feeling better.

I hope I can help address your concerns.

1) ".. the food that the vet sells" and "...the clinic's bottom line. "
As an owner of two hospitals, I can buy and sell what ever food I want. The reason that Science Diet is one of largest prescription pet food and common in so many hospitals is due to the large amount of medical data behind the foods, and most importantly because it makes our patients feel better. Furthermore, NO veterinary hospital owner/vet will EVER get rich off of foods. It has one of the highest costs and lowest markups. I was debating with no longer carrying Science Diet at one of my hospitals due to lack of storage and just write scripts. My clients came back to tell me that I was so much cheaper than Pet Smart... Now I carry it again.

2) High pH
Urine is being constantly made by the kidneys minute by minute. As such the pH and the various parameters often fluctuate. Foods will also make pH change. Having either too low or too high pH can lead to crystal formation and ultimately bladder stones. Inflammation which could lead to inappropriate urination in the house could also occur in many altered pH ranges. There are a number of reasons for elevated pH. I am glad that the rest of the test looked great!


3) Why did your vet choose Science Diet?
Your vet, if like most of us, really wants your pet to get better and stay better. The last thing we want is an angry phone call that what we are doing isn't working. Furthermore with male cats especially, urine pH can be a big deal. Crystals/inflammation byproducts/small stones can form a 'plug' and cause a complete lower urinary tract obstruction (often referred to as a blocked tom). This is a medical life threatening emergency and can be both painful, scary and costly. For these reasons, we usually chose what will help the most consistently. For better or worse, food company diets like Science Diet come up.

4) What are your alternatives?
a) Perhaps ask your vet. I have to date, not found one diet that is withour someone's complaint (be that either human or pet ) . I use several different companies foods (including both prescription, non prescription and holistic diets). While I have a favorite for each condition, I always have a back up diet.

or

b) Find a diet that you like, place Oliver on it, and then have the urine retested. I have had a few furry friends that wouldn't eat anything I could come up with and ended up trying some unusual foods to get the pH to get right. Likely, your vet will be happy to help you out on this.

Regardless of the food or food additive you chose to address the pH: Have a follow-up urinalysis with your vet. Due to the nature of urinary tract disease, just because Oliver looks like he is feeling better, it doesn't mean that the pH problem is over. Documenting that the urine looks great can really help to safeguard your pet.

Good luck to you and Oliver!
  #3  
Old June 7th, 2007, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiffywiffy View Post
Any recommendations on how to combat the "high PH" by not using horrible food? Btw.. I am currently feeding him Fromm Four-Star Salmon & Veg dry in the morning and he can feed on anytime, and Lick My Chops wet foods once in the evening.

Thanks.

Here's some info for you on the feline diet and urinary tract health:

Quote:
Urine pH is also often considered when discussing urinary tract problems but the proper amount of water in the diet is a far more important point to focus on than pH.

There are many factors which determine the pH of urine and only one of them is diet. Unfortunately, a highly acidifying diet is often prescribed which may result in trading one problem for another. Generally speaking, a basic (non-prescription) low carbohydrate, meat-based canned food helps normalize the urine pH and provides the proper amount of dietary water.

With regard to dry food and urinary tract health, aside from the lack of water in this type of diet, please also note that there is a correlation between the consumption of a high carbohydrate diet and the formation of struvite crystals as shown by this study.

Veterinarians often prescribe Science Diet dry c/d and x/d for urinary tract problems but again, these diets are only ten percent water and contain a high level of species-inappropriate ingredients and questionable preservatives. They are also very high in carbohydrates with dry c/d containing 42 percent of its weight as carbohydrates. Please note the first few ingredients in c/d while remembering that your cat is a carnivore:

Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, pork fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), chicken liver flavor, taurine, preserved with BHT and BHA
You can read more here: http://www.catinfo.org/
  #4  
Old June 7th, 2007, 04:53 PM
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Ooooooh boy.

I can't believe it has come to an expert actually recommending these foods here on pets.ca... I imagine some people are 'rolling in their graves' so to speak. I'm sooooo disappointed.

The truth is that vets don't know a lot about nutrition and for some reason many don't bother to educate themselves about it. Also, and I know this is a FACT, food companies woo vets just like pharma companies woo doctors.

I hope someone can come in and help the OP with a better food choice, unfortunately I don't have the experience with cats or U tract infections.
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Old June 7th, 2007, 04:54 PM
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From the above post

"Unfortunately, a highly acidifying diet is often prescribed which may result in trading one problem for another.Generally speaking, a basic (non-prescription) low carbohydrate, meat-based canned food helps normalize the urine pH and provides the proper amount of dietary water. "

1) These are reasons to re-test the urine after you have changed the food. (Ask your vet, but most of us want a two week trial period on a new food.) Regardless of the diet chosen, the last thing we want to have is another problem arise for Oliver!

2) Canned food. Often canned will be more helpful than dry for cats with urinary problems.

Question: Did your vet mention FUS/FLUTD? (Feline Urologic Syndrome, Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease?)
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Old June 7th, 2007, 05:29 PM
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Although members are entitled to their opinions, they could also be a bit friendlier so that everyone can learn from each other and get along smoothly.

Why not ask a question, instead of going on the offensive right away?

Vets have a lot to offer and members have a lot to offer. Let's please try to educate one another harmoniously.

Thanks in advance ,

Marko
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Old June 7th, 2007, 06:10 PM
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Depending on WHAT you were feeding before, changing to a food that creates an acidic urine (by having an appropriate amino acid profile) and reduced magnesium levels may help. However I would check with the manufacturer of the food you were using to determine whether is creates an acidic urine. If it does in PH testing, then you have other variables that are affecting this (not enough fluid intake, genetic issues)
Interestingly enough magnesium levels are not indicated anymore in recent NRC research into this issues, provided your target PH is 6.4 or so.
There are many good foods out there that help with this issue, including prescription, and some holistics, you just need to ask the manufacturer. However, no food is guaranteed to stop reccurence, and there are too may factors involved. I would also do a urine test every so often to keep on track.
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Old June 7th, 2007, 06:23 PM
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Sigh... I certainly didn't want this to turn into a flame war. I am simply concerned about my pet's health. Perhaps I shouldn't have been so vociferous in my opinion of the foods recommended by the vet. (Although I do stand by it.)

Honestly, I did feel pretty pressured by the vet (in a nice way) to use the brand that shall not be named. It really bothered me because when I compare the ingredients of that to his current food, it is shocking how much better the good stuff seems and it costs the same or only slightly more. Anyway, it is quite clear that I would never use that food under any circumstance anyway. Any company involved in the food recall is no company I want to be a customer of.

So... I appreciate some of the suggestions. I will try to feed him more wet food. Perhaps in the morning as well as evening. I will also try to find out from the food manufacturers some additional information. Urinalysis is not cheap (it cost more than the doctor consultation in my case)... I simply cannot afford to test him every month.

Thank you.
  #9  
Old June 7th, 2007, 06:34 PM
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I believe there are kits you can buy at the pharmacy to test ph in urine. Can anybody second that?
  #10  
Old June 7th, 2007, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badger View Post
I believe there are kits you can buy at the pharmacy to test ph in urine. Can anybody second that?
Yes this is true, they are cheap and work well. One of my clients was having a horrible time with oxalate crystals and we were testing the pH twice daily. He picked his strip tests up at a pool supply store. The tube comes with a color map on the side to help indicate the pH.

When we got his pH levels under control we followed it up by performing a complete urinalysis to help look at concentration, evidence of crystals/kidney damage/infection/etc... and to make sure everything else looked fine...

Most vets should be happy to help walk you through it if there are questions. I would offer to help walk you through, however it is clear that I am not a welcome presence here. So best of luck to you...
  #11  
Old June 7th, 2007, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Lee View Post
I would offer to help walk you through, however it is clear that I am not a welcome presence here. So best of luck to you...
I'm sorry if we have caused you to feel that way Dr. Lee, I do not believe that has been our intent. We might be a little feisty at times but we do value your knowledge and experience.
  #12  
Old June 8th, 2007, 12:11 AM
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Smile Kudos for Dr. Lee

I second that Mummummum!!!
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Old June 8th, 2007, 10:02 AM
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I would suggest that you ARE a welcome presence here Dr. Lee - and that as has happened before, passion takes a hold of people on the Net and politeness takes a back seat.

Our members don't always agree with each other and they won't all agree with vets...but as always I like to encourage politeness.

In general our members are well read on many topics and have strong opinions based on research that they've done.

And as long as we are civil we can learn from each other.

SURELY a vet is useful to guests and members - and SURELY vets can always learn new things.....if the environment is pleasant.

Thanks again!
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  #14  
Old June 8th, 2007, 11:45 AM
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Ditto.
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Old June 8th, 2007, 09:05 PM
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So. If I understand correctly, pets.ca is now endorsing a vet who pushes low-quality food like Science Diet, and is proud to do so? I'm out of words, and terribly saddened. This used to be such a great, trustworthy place to get good, sound advice.

Well, good luck everyone. I'll miss some of you. :sad:
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Old June 8th, 2007, 09:31 PM
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I encourage you to re-read Dr. Lee's post TD. I don't see any "pushing" happening. I do see an explanation in response to the OP's concerns that her own Vet was "pushing" a particular diet. I also see that Dr. Lee has provided a very clear and detailed medical explanation on the cat's condition and suggested fsome follow-up remedial actions. But as for "pushing" a specific brand, I think you are mistaken.

Please note this in particular from Dr. Lee's post :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Lee View Post
I I use several different companies foods (including both prescription, non prescription and holistic diets). While I have a favorite for each condition, I always have a back up diet.
or
b) Find a diet that you like, place Oliver on it, and then have the urine retested. I have had a few furry friends that wouldn't eat anything I could come up with and ended up trying some unusual foods to get the pH to get right. Likely, your vet will be happy to help you out on this.
  #17  
Old June 8th, 2007, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technodoll View Post
So. If I understand correctly, pets.ca is now endorsing a vet who pushes low-quality food like Science Diet, and is proud to do so? I'm out of words, and terribly saddened. This used to be such a great, trustworthy place to get good, sound advice.

Well, good luck everyone. I'll miss some of you. :sad:
I dunno, I see it more as an opportunity to all learn from each other. No doubt Dr. Lee has plenty of worthwhile veterinary experience that he/she seems willing to share, and perhaps in the process would be open to learning a thing or two from the great collective database of knowledge that is this message board. It has the potential to be beneficial for everyone!
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Old June 8th, 2007, 10:57 PM
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Very well said, sugarcatmom.
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Old June 9th, 2007, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
So. If I understand correctly, pets.ca is now endorsing a vet who pushes low-quality food like Science Diet, and is proud to do so? I'm out of words, and terribly saddened. This used to be such a great, trustworthy place to get good, sound advice.

Well, good luck everyone. I'll miss some of you.
How should we respond to this? :sad: Really, I'm blown away.

I MUST say that I'm really happy that the MAJORITY of members seem to recognize the value of having a vet (a really kind sweet and generous vet I might add) anwser questions.

Dr. Lee used science diet to help a sick pet. What does this have to do with Pets.ca? ZERO, NADA, NOTHING. Maybe Innova or Orijen or any of the other brands that we like didn't have a formula that suited Dr. Lee's needs for his patient. Maybe he doesn't have intimate knowledge of these brands and continues to use what works for him. Maybe members with knowledge, with a bit of tact could bring some of the lessons learned around here into the conversation. I guess not. I guess it's easier to post sarcastically and make a sweeping accusation.

The tone of this post is frustrating. It is accusatory for NO reason and is just meant to stir the pot around here. Should we have deleted his post? really?

Individual members have different strengths in their knowledge - and instead of bashing, maybe try to educate....but I guess it's just easier to bash, and make accusations....regardless of how often we ask members to take a breath and be polite.

Thanks...
Marko
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  #20  
Old June 9th, 2007, 11:14 AM
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Well, where I am not a fan of Science Diet among other things, I have decided to avoid this post (until now)
There are a few things I dont agree with Dr.Lee on, but they are the same things I dont agree with my old vet on. Its just how the world works. I dont have any advice for the OP, as I have never dealt with this problem ever, so no first hand experience.

I thought high ash content was something to avoid with UTI's (prolly so wrong there)

Couldnt one look for a food that is higher protien? perhaps orijen or another food on the same level?
http://www.championpetfoods.com/orij...ducts/cat.aspx

Quote:
FRESH REGIONAL INGREDIENTS
Deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, lake whitefish, chicken fat, sweet potato, whole eggs,de-boned turkey, salmon meal, salmon and anchovy oils, salmon, natural chicken flavour, sunflower oil, sun-cured alfalfa, dried brown kelp, carrots, spinach, peas, tomatoes, apples, psyllium, dulse, glucosamine Hcl, cranberries, black currants, rosemary extract, chondroitin sulfate, sea salt.

TONIC HERBS AND BOTANICALS

Chicory root, licorice root, tumeric root, funugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, zea mays, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosehips.

ORGANIC MINERALS

Iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate.

PROBIOTIC MICROORGANISMS

Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.

PREMIUM VITAMINS

Mixed tocopherols (source of vitamin E), choline chloride, vitamin A, vitamin D3, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin B12, folic acid, biotin.
Again I am no expert on this, and have no real idea in what to look for when it comes to UTI's.
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  #21  
Old June 9th, 2007, 03:12 PM
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Sorry, DrLee, things on this board have been very strange lately and this is not an attack against you personally.

I think your recommending Science Diet is the 'straw that broke the camel's back'.

I hope the OP finds a better quality food than Science Diet.

I'm off to follow Laverott's advice , at least for a little while!
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Old June 9th, 2007, 04:01 PM
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SpiffyWiffy,I hope in the end you find a food that will work well with Oliver and keep him healthy.
I've only once had an experience with UTI,many,many years ago and in those days,the foodchoices were very limited.
I've since had 8 cats(currently3),their main meals are canned with added water,they free-feed on Orijen dry.
IMO in Olivers case he would greatly benefit from canned food,but that's only my belief.
I am sorry if Dr Lee,who very graciously has helped on many occasions,feels attacked,I am sure that was not the intention.
I too have vets who literally push Hills and Medical every time I see them and my cats are not unhealthy,I have read the ingredients and they make me shudder.
My vets and I seem to have come to an agreement though,no more pushing from now on.
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  #23  
Old June 9th, 2007, 08:34 PM
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Thanks to Dr. Lee and to the members that posted in order to help.

This thread has run its course and will now be closed.

Thx

Marko
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