4 lb Pregnant Female

[canine14]

Originally Posted by LuckyRescue

I agree these people need to be taught a lesson, but at what cost?

Exactly. The suggestion to use Baby as an example is terribly upsetting and unsettling.

Poor, poor Baby. I cry for this girl. I guess even after all of these postings, the only resolution that we, the posters, will get out of this is the sad knowledge that Baby is condemned to become another statistic.

[CyberKitten]

This thread still distresses me (and I endure lots of stress in my work - children dying, upset parents and patients undergoing difficult procedure and making extremely difficult decisions) - and I cannot get it off my mind. So much for this site being a stress buster, sigh!

I went back to the original question you posed which was "What would your suggestions be?" and as I read the replies (and this is a site frequented by pet lovers so you know what you are getting into by coming here), I am at a loss to understand why you would be upset at our telling you that cat needs to be spayed- the sooner the better! A good rescue or shelter would likely do the same thing. It is the only humane thing. I am in the business of helping people decide every day about serious surgeries (bone marrow transplants for example) and if this were my cat (and this somehow happened), I have her at the vet yesterday to be spayed. I think even waiting for a C section is too dangerous. It is possible but why risk this poor cat's life when there is no need to give birth.

I have been thinking about this situation (I was lying awake last night wondering about it, sigh!) and it occurs to me that this woman apparently brought this intact cat home to a place where she had a larger intact Tom. What the blazes did she think would happen? Is she that immature and dimwitted that she can't get this through her head? I mean, my God, no one can be that stupid or follish, surely to God! I know Happycats went a bit over the top is saying she should be banned from motherhood (and I just think we do not have enuf info to know that and such ststements eminate from our total frustration here) BUT she is hardly a great role model for a child when she can be so cavalier and irresponsible about a living creature.

That she refuses to listen to you says she is not a very good friend either. I don't do everything my friends suggest but I do consider the source of the information and make an informed decision. She is not giving you much respect either by ignoring your advice.

We gave you our suggestions - all reasonable ones (and yes, even rescuing a cat from certain death would be a moral thing to do in this situation). Is your friend now in an intractible position - she made a decision and now out of pride, does not want to change it? Tell her we all make mistakes and to for God's sake, be a the caring person she has the potential to become and save her cat while she can.

I do not "buy" the can't afford a vet excuse either. There are many people on this Board who have a hard time financially but they still manage to care for their pets. Vets will accept a payment plan, credit cards, and there are still come - in this situation - who might reduce the price. Your friend is responsible for this cat's situation. Surely she will take responsibility and take her to a vet now.

If she loves this cat, she will do the right thing. If she allows her to go to term, she is nothing more than a cat killer with all the consequences that term implies. It just eats at my soul that she is willing to watch this beautiful creature die a slow and painful death!

[Lucky Rescue]

I mean, my God, no one can be that stupid or follish, surely to God!

Oh, yes they can. We see stuff like this on a nearly daily basis. Why do you think millions upon millions of cats are homeless? THESE people are the cause.

[Safyre]

OK that was a lot of posts to read in one sitting. CyberKitten is definately long winded (thats good though)
*sighs* I am stressed about this, it was even in my dreams last night trying to sleep.
I am not upset about people telling me the cat needs to be spayed... as I know that is true. I am upset that Crys (we'll just use the short form of her name) doesn't comprehend what could happen.
What I tried to explain before, and maybe it was over looked... she does not seem to understand that anything could go wrong. She does not have the menatal capacity when it comes to animals to care for them correctly. She looks at, and reacts to animals the same way that you would expect a child to.
As for the stealing her and what not: NO. This is the only cat she has that it well behaved. The othe two cats need to go. This should be the cat that she saves. And that's why I was soo desperate as to come on to a website to ask for assistance. Her other cats, are annoying to say the least. Baby is the best animal she has, and I am hoping that she will realize that she needs help, and get her to the vet.
Again, I am working on the husband, who actually was my friend first. I am friends with his wife after being friends with him for years. I'm pretty sure he got it last night when I said very bluntly "she will die trying to deliver the babies"... I'm hoping that I can talk to him later this week ad get him to bring Baby to see my Vet. And then convince him he needs to let the males go to better homes.
And I know that if Baby does die in labour, that I am going to be trribly depressed. I will regret that Crys didn't take my advice, and the advice from the people of this website.
'm not defending her, or thinking that this is right in anyway, shape or form. All All I can keep doing it working on her, trying to get it through her head. I am hoping that Baby does not get used as an example....
I won't be back to this thread.... not until I have some news to share. This thread, instead of helping me with my friend, has made the situation that much worse. Because I have a big heart and I am trying, I am told it will be my fault if the cat dies, and thats just not right.

[Lucky Rescue]

Because I have a big heart and I am trying, I am told it will be my fault if the cat dies, and thats just not right

Well I certainly don't blame you. I know you cant' walk into someone's home and just seize their animals. Obviously you care very much, or you wouldn't have come here looking for help.

One thing you said does take me aback, however:

The othe two cats need to go. This should be the cat that she saves.

The other cats need to go because they are "annoying"

[Prin]

I had an annoying dog once. And I trained him.

[t.pettet]

This is the most disturbing/frustrating post have ever read. Step up to the plate and arrange for Baby to be transported to anyone who is offering a resolution. Everyone is very concerned and attempting to help but you keep coming up with excuses and defending your friend. I can offer part transportation from Kingston to Ottawa. Please assist us in removing this cat from a dire situation.

[CyberKitten]

In the event you come back -
Re: "Because I have a big heart and I am trying, I am told it will be my fault if the cat dies, and thats just not right."
I for one never said it was your fault. You are in a delicate postion and I don't think anyone is faulting you for that. You did not ask for this situation.

BUT re: "The othe two cats need to go. This should be the cat that she saves." As I said previously about these kitties, cats act up for a reason. It is not usually their fault and they should not be the ones who suffer for someone's failure to train and teach them. A cat's personality develops as it grows. If a cat is shown kindness and love, s/he responds in kind. Maybe these two do need a new home but not because they are bad. Would you get rid of a child because s/he acts up?

It sounds as though Baby is the favourite but she alas will pay for that status with her life. I will however pray for a miracle of some kind. I know you will be ready to go to the vet but if she gives birth at all she needs to do it birth AT the vet.

Anyway, I am in danger of repeating myself.

Lucky, some days I think my job sucks but yours sounds horrid - I am not very good at "suffering fools" and I'be be very hard pressed to cope with people who treat their pets badly. I am not sure how you do it but thank God you do!

[chico2]

I believe the one male cat is already neutered and if the other un-altered cat is"acting up"it's probably because he's not neutered and having already had a go at Baby,is eager to do it again..neutering will more than likely calm him down.It is unfortunate,for the cats,that getting rid of them seems so easy.Safyr says the husband really loves his cats,so hopefully there is a chance for all of them and little Baby will get help.

I agree with Cyberkitten,Lucky,you and all others here who help so many unfortunate little lives,are wonderful(I keep repeating myself!)....at least if you deal with sick people and sad news,you can explain what is happening.
Animals are totally at the mercy of people,good or bad and people can dump them refuse medical-care and there is not a thing the poor animal can do about it.I am sure if we asked the animals they don't want to die,all they want from us is some food,lots of loving and a warm place to sleep....not much to ask in return for purrs and wet kisses :sad:

[Safyre]

I will explain the situation with the other cats, I'm not going to say anything about Baby in this post, or any future posts unless there is something to report.
Cherry is spayed. As of lately, he has taken to urinating on peoples coats and not in the kitty box. Throughout the time she has had him, he has done this multiple times, deciding different areas to pee in. They spray him with a water bottle, he stops the behaviour for a while, then chooses a new item to pee on. He gets tons of attention, as there is always someone at the apartment. Unsure of why he is acting this way.
Ed, is not neutered. And is terribly agressive towards Baby and any other animals. To the point where he is raping Cherry when he is kept away from Baby. He has ripped the carpet away from the walls. Again, using a spray bottle to keep him away. he runs at the sight of the spray bottle, but then comes back and does it again and again. Someone was 'sure that the intact male is spraying all over the house' and he actually doesn't. He has not sprayed for a few months now.

These cats, are not attention deprived in anyway... but act as if they are. They are always up on any furniture near you, trying to get attention, instead of being independant as most cats are.
I personally, find them annoying. Crys does not find them annoying in the same way that I do. My cats, I adore, they are very independant, and will come to get attention at thier own leisure, not begging for it every second. My cats got spolied with attention as kittens, the same that hers did. unsure why hers seem soo attention starved. As i stated, there is someone there almost every hour of the day, giving them attention, quite often having both males on them at the same time.

How do you break cats from these behaviours? And, how can we be sure that ED is not going to attack the human baby? he attacks anything small that comes into the apartment now, ever since she got that pup a few mnoths back? Getting rid of them, is not easy. Crys has been fighting with that decision since she got pregnant with her first last year. When the baby died (of Trisomy 18, before any of you ask, some people have aready accused her of being a bad mother, don't want those same people to think she is on drugs and made her baby die or anything) she decided she didn't have to find homes for the cats, she wasn't bringing home a baby, she could afford to keep them.
I'm hoping that the further along she gets into this pregnancy, she will again give major consideration to finding the cats home.
Cherry would be a great cat for a nursing home, because of how loving and docile he is, its just the urinating on different peices of clothes every once in a while that we are not sure how to break.

[CyberKitten]

Usually when cats urinate inapprpriately, they are attempting to convey something - a uti, another medical problem ,something that upsets them (if there was a recent death - you did not indicate how recent that was, they can sense the stress). I do not know the entire family situation (it sounds complicated). Some cats are lovebugs and need much attention and some are independent and want attention on their own terms- I have had both. I bottlefed four kittens and the two that I kept (adopting out the other two to good homes where I actually got to watch them grow up as well) and they were very people oriented cats. Has your friend taken these two the vet? The first rule of thumb in inappropriate urination is a vet visit. Then it is a behaviour question.

[Safyre]

The death of the human baby, happened in uterus, he was a still born baby. The cats MIGHT have been able to sense this death... but, unsure. It happened back in July.

Well, if I can get her to bring one cat to the vet, you better believe that ALL cats are going to the vet on the same visit just to be checked out.
I have never had cats, nor has my close fmaily members with cats, that wanted attention as much as these guys do. They seem desperate, and that just is an annoyance from me, becasue I am used to how my family cats are in regards to attention.
I was never meaning to imply that she should get rid of an animal just because it is 'annoying'... if that were true, I have a toller for sale! (KIDDING!!!!!!)

[CyberKitten]

Originally Posted by Safyre

The death of the human baby, happened in uterus, he was a still born baby. The cats MIGHT have been able to sense this death... but, unsure.

I was thinking even if the cats did not sense the death of the fetus, they at least were exposed to the turmoil and stress the experience brings to the family. I have heard an array of stories from my patients (mostly children with cancer) and their families about experiences with their pets - the pet may not recognize them when they return home from the hospital (the smell from the hospital I suspect) - a most upsetting situation for a child who has very much missed his dog, cats urinating and hiding when the child they sleep with or are close to is hospitalized, etc.

An adult cancer patient of a colleague of mine at a nearby hospital recently sought a mammogram after her cat kept juping up and down on her breast and refused to get off. Perplexed, she examined her breast and saw nothing. She did schedule the test and a lump was found and it was malignant. She had it removed and is undergoing chemo as an outpatient. The cat no longer jumps on her.

So maybe the cats were reacting to the overall stress level at the house, something our pets seem quite tuned in to.

[Lucky Rescue]

Cherry is spayed. As of lately, he has taken to urinating on peoples coats and not in the kitty box. Throughout the time she has had him, he has done this multiple times, deciding different areas to pee in. They spray him with a water bottle, he stops the behaviour for a while, then chooses a new item to pee on. He gets tons of attention, as there is always someone at the apartment. Unsure of why he is acting this way.
Ed, is not neutered. And is terribly agressive towards Baby and any other animals. To the point where he is raping Cherry when he is kept away from Baby. He has ripped the carpet away from the walls. Again, using a spray bottle to keep him away. he runs at the sight of the spray bottle, but then comes back and does it again and again.

OH boy....an intact male kept in the house and attacking the other cats and they wonder why one of them is peeing on the floor???? I'm not at all unsure about what is going on here.

Intact male cats can be VERY aggressive, particularly in the presence of a intact female, and will take their aggression out on their housemates.

And then, when the poor cat pees to convey his stress, he gets sprayed with a water bottle and makes him MORE stressed. Also the presence of intact cats can GREATLY stress spayed or neutered cats.

This situation sounds pretty normal to me when intact cats are being kept together in the house. Yes, the habits of intact tom cats can be very "annoying" when people do not do the right thing and get them neutered. These cats are not doing anything wrong - merely trying to live in the impossible situation they have been put into.

They are going to dump a tomcat for acting like a tom cat?

Not only are these people ignorant and irresponsible, but are starting to sound downright abusive. They are doing everything wrong, then blaming the animals.

[Safyre]

You people confuse me... you use the word "dump" .. but then complain that they are not treating thier animals correctly. if they find a better home for them, you will say that they are dumped...
which do you want? them to continue to take care of the animals badly? or give them to someone (dump them) who cares?
I don't think my friend is going to suddenly start getting all of her animals vaccinated, and vet checked...
I think I can convince her to do so for Baby because of the desperate situation. But i don't think its going to change her outlook on the other animals.
Do you know for sure tht Ed's bad behaviour, agression particularily, will stop if he is spayed? I have been told by some vets that , after a certain age, spaying the animal will not help a behavioural problem. we were speaking of females at the time, but i'm thinking it would be the same for a male?

[CyberKitten]

You mean these cats are not even vaccinated? OMG! I can't believe that!! (I guess I can but that is another reason that cat has to be aboted the sooner the better - if both male and female were not vet checked before they mated, anything can happen, irrespective of the fact the female is small and will have a birth canal too small to deliver properly if at all. OMG!! This situation just gets worse and worse!!

I know you don't want to hear it but you cannot expect cat lovers to sit back and say nothing about this.

Did she not vaccinate them when she got them? I am guessing she did not buy them from a reputable breeder or Rescue who would have already vaccinated them.

If she has the mentality of a child (which unfortunately is no defense - and actually is a bit insulting to the many children I know who care very well for their pets), maybe someone can then take legal custody of the cats, somehow. This is so very upsetting!!

Again, Lucky, I do not know how you deal with these fools! (and I am referring to your friend Safyre, not you!) I hope you have luck with her husband. Make him see how irresponsible this is. Not to mention the fact that her cat will die if forced to fullterm.

I am sorry to go on again - this cat's dire situation just cuts me right in my heart! And I am helpless to do anything about it. I am usually faced with situations I can attempt to cure and people tend to listen to my advice but this just makes me feel sooooo frustrated. I guess Safyre, you must feel this way too.

Anyway, that's my rant on this seemingly hopeless situation for tonite.

Please give us up to date Safyre!

[chico2]

Safyr,I am not adding to what CK and Lucky said,they are 150% right!!
A spraying neutered male,means a very stressed cat!! I know,I have one...but working on it,dumping him on unsuspecting strangers is not an option,he is my responsability and I love him.
I am not going on about dumping the cats,or finding"good"homes,they probably would be better off,but who would take not vaccinated,spraying and not altered cats??
I have never had a Tom-cat(unaltered)but I used to feed one outside for a few years,it's a very bad situation those cats are in...
In my experience with cats,I love them and have had them most of my life,the independence thing is a myth,at least with mine,they are totally dependent on the care we give them.
I can see the scenario you are painting,one little pregnant female,one unaltered Tom and one altered....people running around spraying them with water and did you not say there is also a puppy?
A recipy for disaster for the poor cats!
I am not bashing you,although your idea of what having cats means worries me too,an attacking cat does so for a reason,in this case it's because he's not neutered,the peeing cat could have UTI or be totally stressed and the pregnant cat could die...
A very bad scenario :sad:
Anyways,thank's for keeping us updated,I hope we did not scare you away,since we cannot talk to the"owner"of the cats,you are the go-between and although this worries and upsets me,I hope you'll let us know what happens.

Also,Canine14 had a good solution for the pregnant female,she's being very generous in offering to help ,why no response???

[LoriA]

Hi Safyre

Another option that may be available to you to help your friend is to contact some vets in the area. They may be able to donate some time to look at Baby and tell if all is well. If you contact them and let them know the situation they may be able to work soemthing out regarding a study etc to have the medical costs be deferred.

Another thing is to contact the SPCA in your area. They may be able to contribute to the cost as well.

Also maybe get the community involved...there are alot of poeple willing to contribute to help when an animal is in need. Do you haev any shelter or rescues in your area? Maybe contact them.

Pull everyone in. Someone wil be able to offer some assistance.
Providing your friend is willing to accept the help.

Good luck and let me know what happens.

[canine14]

Originally Posted by chico2

Also,Canine14 had a good solution for the pregnant female,she's being very generous in offering to help ,why no response???

Chico2,

I was up last night, probably along with Cyberkitten, worrying about this poor creature. It seems as though the OP won't take the cat and the friend won't give her up.

Out of all the stories that I have heard about people hurting animals (and yes Safyre, your friend is hurting this animal intentionally because neglect IS a form of abuse), this is the worst because usually when a story of abuse is reported, it's after the fact. In that case, we can only hope for justice and punish the perpetrator and for a miracle for the abused animal. In this case, we have the chance to prevent Baby from becoming a statistic but there is no "we" because Safyre won't allow us to help as she won't take the cat.

This is all so sick and frustrating that I am trembling. Poor little girl. What a tradgedy.

[chico2]

Canine14,yes,it is a tragedy...I believe the owners have blinders on and no consideration for the animals,probably hoping one kitten or two will survive at the expence of little mom,only to continue the vicious circle of neglect and it certainly is abuse :sad:

[Britishvixen21]

are you seriously trying to tell me that there is not a cat charity out there that can help free of charge. what about the humane society surely they or someone they know can help?? This is a desperate situation. and quite frankly saf, I commend you for trying to help I do, however it seems that every post that has replied to you trying to help you have quashed with an 'excuse'. Do you want the help or not. The people on here are both highly proffessional and know what there talking about and have devoted thier lives to the care and protection of animals. They are not talking out of there backsides! I know that stealing the cat seems out there but do you really want the blood of that cats agonising death on your hands? Can you not at least offer to take the cat to the vet for your freind if you found somewhere that was willing to help! Me and my cat are at loggerheads most of the time but I could not dream of letting her die needlessly, let alone letting her live unaltered in a house with an agressive Tom!!! Im not going to sit here and put you down or your freind thats pointless, But I am going to say this. you have three pages worth of posts on here from proffessional and knowledgable cat owners and there opinions too which if you werent ready for that, then more fool you! you have two options here you can take there advice and run with it and save that cats life, or you can stop posting forget about it and have that cats death on your concience. because its not fair that these people are trying to help you and you cant see the forest for the trees. This is not a debate its a choice make it!!!

[Writing4Fun]

Originally Posted by Safyre

To Chico: my friends husband brought home this last cat, after thier baby died, thinking it would help cheer my friend up.

I admit that I haven't read all of the posts in this very disturbing thread, so I don't know if this comment has been addressed or not. Was this a human child that they lost? Has this woman been to a therapist? IMHO, the death of a child would be incredibly traumatizing, and she may not be behaving normally. This could go on for years, and so it might now "appear" to be her normal behaviour. I also believe it was a huge mistake for her husband to bring home a pet to "replace" their human child. With another human child on the way, this woman may need psychiatric help now before she is hit with serious post-pardum (sp?) depression. :sad:

[Lucky Rescue]

Do you know for sure tht Ed's bad behaviour, agression particularily, will stop if he is spayed? I have been told by some vets that , after a certain age, spaying the animal will not help a behavioural problem. we were speaking of females at the time, but i'm thinking it would be the same for a male?

First of all, only females are "spayed". This involves removal of the uterus and ovaries.

Males are "neutered" which is removal of the testicles. NO, spaying and neutering will not stop all behavior problems. It will stop behaviors that are caused by testosterone or estrogen.

There are no guarantees about this. It depends how long the animal has been left intact. But aggression in tomcats is caused by frustrated and powerful drives to mate and fight. If there is nothing to mate with, or fight with, the aggression will be released either on people or other pets.

What IS guaranteed that the longer this cat is left intact, the worse his behavior will become. No one can live with an indoor, intact tomcat ESPECIALLY in the presence of an intact female.
This is how tomcats end up living outside, creating kittens and getting injured in fights and killed - people are too irresponsible/uncaring/cheap to neuter them.

Neutering Ed will definitely tone down his behavior, but it will take a little time, until all testosterone is out of his body.

I use the word "dump" because they dont' want this cat merely because he is annoying (THEIR fault) and they are trying to shirk their responsibility.

Why would they think somone else would want an intact, aggressive tomcat who sprays if THEY don't???

[Trinitie]

Originally Posted by Safyre

oh, and the other thing, I already have prevented her from getting anymore animals. (they also have feeder mice, two ball pythons and a bearded dragon)

This concerns me. They have 3 cats, pythons, a bearded dragon, and they refuse to the cats to the vets for so much as a vaccination? They have the money to take care of the reptiles, but the cats are different somehow? In some communities it's illegal to own an intact cat, over the age of 6 months, without a license. Perhaps you can contact your City Hall to enquire as to the status of animal by-laws for your city. If your friend thinks she may be breaking the law, would she consider bringing the cat in then? It appears that it's not a case of money, it's a case of whether she "wants to or not" bring that poor cat in. Does she really not care for the cat? If she does, lean heavy on the animal welfare side of your arguement. If she doesn't have this poor cat looked after by a vet, it may very well die, whether you have information you found on the Internet about birthing or not. Unless she cares so little for this cat, keep at her. Calling a vet's office doesn't cost anything. It sounds like she's just not willing to listen to reason. If this is the case, then I think this cat will go to the Rainbow Bridge before it's time.

[GsdDiamond]

That's so right Trinitie! Here in Winnipeg it's illegal to own a cat that's not fixed.
Why anyone would want an animal that's not fixed...is beyond me!!! Our girl had an appointment to be spayed from the day we picked her up!

From the City of Winnipeg site:
Effective October 22, 2003
By-law No. 2443/79, Section 28, Subsections 13 & 14:
(13) No resident of the City of Winnipeg shall own a cat over the age of 6 months which has not been sterilized by a licensed Veterinary Surgeon unless the owner is in possession of a valid and subsisting permit for the cat.
(14) The said permit shall be issued annually and shall be effective for 12 months from the date of issue. The fee for said permit shall be $50.00 annually plus any applicable taxes.

Again, like I said...who would want an unfixed animal anyways, unless it's to purposfully breed the animals?

[Britishvixen21]

I have to agree with writing in that post pardum has to be a factor here, either that or this person really is warped. and her hb sounds completely off the wall trying to replace a kid with a cat? Id like to know how old this couple is as they dont sound very mature! Saf, I would recommend that you speak to your freind about the possibility of post pardum it is a very serious mental disorder that is not as well known in Canada and the States as it is in the UK. My dad who is a midwife is part of the post pardum society (or post natal depression) as we call it in the UK. im sure if you are interested I could get you some information for your freind. Also not many people realise that Dads can also suffer from post pardum. But please please please dont let this cat die!

[amber416]

As others have mentioned, i too have been thinking about this a lot...in fact, i've been pretty sick over it. I don't buy the whole "i don't have money for my animals" excuse, either. Especially if they have reptiles. I have a bearded dragon and he is really, really expensive...more so than my cat. So either the reptiles are taking precedence over the cats or, and I fear this is the case, the abuse going on in that house is much worse than we are even comprehending at this time. I would think, Safyre, that since you obviously care about this cat enough to come here for some type of guidance, that doing something would be better than nothing at all. Not wanting to "steal" her cat is understandable (although i agree it would be rescuing at this point and completely justifiable) but why not get her and take her to the vet. Just to be seen, no expensive surgeries, vaccinations, nothing like that. I'm sure somebody can afford that minimal amount of care and I can't imagine your friend could have any problem with that. I don't know about all vets, but at the vet clinic where I worked I know that abuse was taken very seriously, neglect inlcluded, and perhaps once the cat is at the vet and you have explained the situation the vet or someone on staff can help you go from there. Something has to be done though. I don't know how you do it...this woman clearly does not respect your friendship or your opinions...your loyalty is very kind, yet very confusing.

[CyberKitten]

I am biting my tongue or is keeping my bytes on my own hard drive rather than this Board but for the record, the woman is not suffering from postpartum depression which occurs after a woman has given birth. She never gave birth. She lost a child in utero - I do not know the details since Safyre did not elaborate. She could be however suffering from depression relating to the sudden termination of a pregnancy. It also depends on how long ago this happened. She is pregnant again and the old tale of a cat attakcing the baby has reared its ugly head. (As a pediatrician, I have never seen a baby injured by a cat in the way that is suggested by that old wive's tale.

Anyway, all I am saying for now!

[glasslass]

I've spent quite a long time reading through this thread. What really disturbs me is that on one hand, you have so much power with this "friend" (she's "not allowed" to go to the pet store without you) (you've "prevented" her from getting any more animals) (you're going to assist at her own childbirthing), yet you seem to have no influence on her otherwise. Don't you realize that you are actually enabling this woman to continue being selfish and irresponsible by shielding her from having to be accountable for her actions? I could not remain friends with someone like that. If a child was being neglected and abused, it would actually be a criminal act for someone with knowledge of the fact to just observe and do nothing out of fear of losing the friendship. Unfortunately, animals don't have the same laws and agencies to protect them. I wasn't going to comment, but feel I have to.

[Safyre]

Whoa, soo many things to explain, soo little time.
CyberKitten - First, she did birth her still born baby. The point at which he died, is not clear. He had a disease called Trisomy 18, I'm not going to explain the disease, if you would like info,http://www.trisomy.org/html/trisomy_18_facts.htm. His heart was failing, an so they induced her labour, knowing that he was going to die. They did not check to see if there was a heartbeat before induction, he came out still born however. The labour might have caused him to die, unsure, and not really the point.
Someone asked if she has seen a psychologist, and she has. Because she was being taken care of in London, at one of the BETTER hospitals, she had MANY doctors taking care of her, checking up on her with phone calls at home.
She does not have any live children, not sure if there was some confusion along the way. No live children.

To the people telling me I am not "listening to them".... I know what everyone has said, i have read these posts, however, the advice cannot be followed, in regards to stealing the cat. I am pushing Crys to get the cats to the vets... and she is SLOWLY starting to realize.
You can't just PUSH someone into decisions... you can't hog tie them and make them agree with you. So i am working on her,... all day long I worked on her.

Now, that that has been explained: i spent the day with Crys again today, and she admitted that she would like to bring Baby and Ed to the OSPCA for adoption. Some people want to call this 'dumping'... to those: would you rather she keep them???

People are saying that the money issue 'is not an issue', I'm not sure where you live, you what your money situation is, but basically, this couple has to buy all the 'equipment' (for lack of better words) for thier child comming in July. They were irresponsible when it came to money, and have quite a few bills, credit cards, what not, to pay. So the money situation is certainly TIGHT, and any extra goes to human baby.

The Vet that i trust in our city, charges a $45 fee to see your animal, thats without blood work, or shots. They just do not have this money to give to the cats.

Crys is realizing today, that the cats are not being cared for correctly, and she is now VERY scared of what will happen to Baby, and she is willing to give her to the OSPCA, hoping she will get the help that she needs.
I have respionded to the person that wants to take Baby, advising them that I was not sure if Crys would give up Baby. Then the person started pushing me towards stealing the cat, going so far as to say I am not WILLING to help this cat if i will not steal it. I'm getting a very bad, agressive vibe from the person at this point, and would not suggest my friend sending her cat to this person. As well, there is an issue of how to get the cat to where this person is.

At this time, I am hoping that I will be transporting Baby, and Ed to the OSPCA with her later on this week.
At the OSPCA, we will be able to advise them of the different problems with the animals, and hope that they get adopted into loving homes. i don't want to come back to this thread and read "oh, she's dumping the aniamls' and being talked down that way. She is hopefully *fingers crossed* going to go through with this idea to bring them to the OSPCA where they can find a more caring home.

As for vaccinations: her response is, cats lived for thousands of years without vaccinations, why do they need them now?
And yes, her cats were NOT purchased, but given away as free, with the exception of Cherry (the neutured male).
She did admit today, if she had spent money to get these cats, she might be more willing to put money into them. Supports the idea that free animals are not seen the same as aniamsl you have to pay for.
As well, the puppy that was mentioned was given to a family after there were issues, including agression that Crys could not handle. She should have never gotten a Boxer, because she does not have the strength of person to deal with this animal. As most on this tread probably know, not everyone can train every animal. Some people can train th most agressive dog to be as gentle as a cat,.... but then there are others that can be run over by a Cocker Spaniel! Boxer and Crys, were not a good combo, she didn't have the strength to train it.Admittedly, neither do i. I'll stick to my "sporting dogs"

Oh, and I know the proper terms for the Females are Spayed and Males are Neutered. I have seen on this website the terms sprayed/neutered being used for both females, and males, Not sure what word to use for both!