Zoe update

[dogcatharmony]

:sad:

Zoe approved of the turkey meatballs but this medication is doing absoluetly nothing. She had 7 poops this morning, first one was a huge pile of wet, all other 6 were just liquid. Just let her out again and she is on her 4 poop....all she had to eat this afternoon was two turkey meatballs and her medication.

And she is seriously cranky, last night she went at Dexter three times for nothing. And this afternoon she went at Amos.She also is panting heavy and itchy all over. I called the vet and he said to try and wait until Monday and see if the situation improves.....he still believes that this med will take care of the problem.



Tonights medication will be 4 days. She is still eating, drinking, peeing. She went on a 45 mins bike ride today, didn't want to come home (so she is not lethagic).

I can't stop thinking something is wrong.......and she is just hiding it really really well. But I do watch her like a hawk.......I don't know. I am not in a good spot right now.

[Winston]

Can Zoe have rice? maybe just to help bind her up a bit? Poor thing!

[ancientgirl]

Maybe she's allergic to poultry.

[dogcatharmony]

Winston she has been eating boiled chicken or hamburger with rice for almost two weeks now. Maybe a bit longer than that. I have gone through a jumbo box of rice.

She has the squirts with hamburger, with chicken/turkey, dog kibble, milkbones, even tried pork. She won't eat pumpkin, I don't want to try pepto because what if it is something that needs to get out of her system and pepto just holds it in.

I had tried different measurements of rice hopeing it would bind her up, but no.

I honestly don't know what to think. But if Monday rolls round (knock on wood, without anything serious happening+ I am getting bloodwork done, and if my vet won't do bloodwork until next Tuesday (which would be the full two weeks of the meds) I will look at getting into another vet.

Am I the only one over here who thinks severe diarreaha for this long is not a good thing?? I know she is under Vet care, but how long before someone says, hmmmmm maybe it could be this. Sorry, just being a paranoid mommy there. I don't even know what else it could be, I don't even want to think what else it could be ..........:sad:

She is in no distress, but she obviously is not feeling good. I couldn't even imagine what her poor anus must feel like having the poops like that. I have been putting warm compresses on it (she prefers that over cold). She is even sleeping with her bum pressed up against things like the wall, the couch. And she is pushing her bum into the objects.

I honestly don't know what else to do.

Oh and checking for Parvo, is that a blood test or a fecal test. It sits in the back of my mind that he said it is running rampant all over our city........you would think he would check for that. But then I imagine a dog with parvo would be mighty sick.

Like I said, I dont know what to think

[ancientgirl]

I don't think you're being paranoid. Heck, mine get one day with diarrhea and I'm already going nuts. Perhaps she's developed some sort of food allergy. Maybe a different kind of meat? Venison or rabbit perhaps.

[TeriM]

Poor Zoe :sad:. I would be worried as well if I were you.

I find that scrambled eggs with oatmeal works best for my dogs when they have an upset system. I usually fast them for about 12 hours and then try that. The eggs seem easier to digest then other proteins and the oatmeal agrees with my dogs better then the rice does . I usually add in some plain yogurt and/or acidophilus as well but I think you said Zoe doesn't like yogurt? Feed in small portion (about 1/3 to 1/2 egg to oatmeal ratio). I would also try some pepcid ac (famotidine) for a few days to help calm some of her stomach acids.

Good luck .

[dogcatharmony]

Thanks TeriM, for a different suggestion. I know eggs won't go over with her but oatmeal might. Something she has never had before. I just made her a supper of plain yogurt rice and chicken, I rolled the rice in the yogurt and put lots of chicken in.....so far she is just trying to pull peices of chicken out, but she will have no choice but to eat some yogurt

Just checked her dish and most of the rice and yogurt is gone, apparently she is very hungry.

Whilch makes me think of something the vet said. He said that once the food reachs the lower intestine any thing she would need body wise has already been taken out of the food. Which is one of the reasons he is not worried. The large intestine and stomach is absorbing what she needs. But supposedly she has gained almost 8 pounds in a month, I don't believe it because she doesn't look any larger to me, but the scales said so. But then the scales also dropped two pounds and went up two pounds while she was sitting on them. I personally don't think the scales were acurate. Even so, shouldn't there be some concern with the rapid weight gain. He said she isn't overweight, according to him. She is five.......don't think she should be packing on 8 pounds in a month when she hardly ever eats.

If i did the peptid (is that the same as pepto bismol?) how much would you give to a 68 lb dog?

[TeriM]

I give one tablet twice a day with meals of the pepcid. It is different then pepto bismal though, it is just a human heartburn med that helps to calm the tummy acid. Pepto works okay but I personally have better luck with the pepcid in my dogs.

I would totally give the rice thing a rest for a few days just in case that is something her system is having some problems processsing. Chicken with the oatmeal would probably be fine. I would also use the quick oats versus the whole oats as basically in this case processed is easier for her system to digest. Same theory would apply to rice .. use minute rice instead of regular. That of course doesn't apply when feeding as a regular thing but for now you want stuff super easy to digest.

[TeriM]

One other thing is if possible to limit the exercise for a few days. I know my vet has told me that if they have lots of diarhea not to exercise as all that movement makes their bowels go into overdrive.

[TeriM]

I also wouldn't worry to much right now about the scale numbers. Vet scales are notoriously out of wack in my experience anyway . If her body is having issues anyway, she could easily be retaining some extra fluids. Do you have another vet close by that you could just pop in and put her on their scale? If things don't settle for her then I would count it as a symptom to be explored but right now the most important thing is just getting her tummy/bum better .

You might also want to mention giardia to your vet next week if things don't improve lots.

http://www.peteducation.com/article....2+2102&aid=739

[hazelrunpack]

Giardia usually responds to metronidazole, though.

After a week of diarrhea, we'd be inclined to have them do a blood panel, too, DCH. I don't think you're being paranoid at all! You know Zoe better than anyone else does...go with your gut!

[Tundra_Queen]

Originally Posted by dogcatharmony

Winston she has been eating boiled chicken or hamburger with rice for almost two weeks now. Maybe a bit longer than that. I have gone through a jumbo box of rice.

She has the squirts with hamburger, with chicken/turkey, dog kibble, milkbones, even tried pork. She won't eat pumpkin, I don't want to try pepto because what if it is something that needs to get out of her system and pepto just holds it in.

I had tried different measurements of rice hopeing it would bind her up, but no.

I honestly don't know what to think. But if Monday rolls round (knock on wood, without anything serious happening+ I am getting bloodwork done, and if my vet won't do bloodwork until next Tuesday (which would be the full two weeks of the meds) I will look at getting into another vet.

Am I the only one over here who thinks severe diarreaha for this long is not a good thing?? I know she is under Vet care, but how long before someone says, hmmmmm maybe it could be this. Sorry, just being a paranoid mommy there. I don't even know what else it could be, I don't even want to think what else it could be ..........:sad:

She is in no distress, but she obviously is not feeling good. I couldn't even imagine what her poor anus must feel like having the poops like that. I have been putting warm compresses on it (she prefers that over cold). She is even sleeping with her bum pressed up against things like the wall, the couch. And she is pushing her bum into the objects.

I honestly don't know what else to do.

Oh and checking for Parvo, is that a blood test or a fecal test. It sits in the back of my mind that he said it is running rampant all over our city........you would think he would check for that. But then I imagine a dog with parvo would be mighty sick.

Like I said, I dont know what to think

I'm sorry that zoe is ill.....BUT DON'T GIVE HER PEPTO!! I heard that is toxic to dogs! We always gave our dogs Kaopectate!

Debbie

[growler~GateKeeper]

Famotidine (Pepcid AC) http://www.petplace.com/drug-library...cid/page1.aspx is fine

Originally Posted by Tundra_Queen

I'm sorry that zoe is ill.....BUT DON'T GIVE HER PEPTO!! I heard that is toxic to dogs! We always gave our dogs Kaopectate!

I wouldn't use Kaopectate either most especially not with cats. Katopectate has the same main ingredients as Pepto Bismol. : http://www.petplace.com/drug-library...ate/page1.aspx

http://www.peteducation.com/article....+2008&aid=3016
Dangerous to Cats and Some Dogs
Veterinary & Aquatic Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith

November 2003 News
Kaopectate, the over-the-counter diarrhea treatment for humans, recently has been reformulated to contain an aspirin derivative that is toxic to cats in high doses.

Kaopectate's new formula contains bismuth subsalicylate *same active ingredient as Pepto Bismol*, which may cause salicylate toxicosis in cats if they are overdosed. Previously, the product contained attapulgite, an inert clay aluminum.

The attapulgite formulation of Kaopectate caplets may still be available. According to a Pfizer Animal Health spokesman, the new formulation of all liquid forms of Kaopectate began shipping in December 2002. Reformulated caplets are scheduled to begin shipping no later than April 2004.

"For decades, veterinarians have recommended Kaopectate to treat diarrhea in cats and dogs", said Dr. Cory Langston, a diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Clinical Pharmacology and a member of the AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association) Council on Biologic and Therapeutic Agents.

"This (product) was prescribed, perhaps in part, because it could do no harm, since none of the ingredients were absorbed orally. Because of this safety factor, large and frequent doses were commonly used." Dr. Langston said. "Unlike the old Kaopectate, this new formulation could result in toxicosis if you do not account for the salicylate content of the product."

Dr. Steve Hansen, a diplomate of the American Board of Veterinary Toxicology and director of the ASPCA's (American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) Animal Poison Control Center, said the range of recommended aspirin-derivative dosages that have been published for cats is 10 mg/kg every other day to 25 mg/kg every day.

A tablespoon of reformulated children's or regular-strength Kaopectate contains 130 mg aspirin equivalent, and reformulatedextra-strength Kaopectate contains 230 mg aspirin equivalent. A tablespoon of extra-strength Kaopectate given to a 5-pound cat would yield 120 mg/kg aspirin equivalent and would likely result in toxicosis, according to Dr. Hansen.

"Cats typically do not metabolize and excrete many compounds, including aspirin, efficiently, which means we are much more likely to have effects," Dr. Hansen said. Dogs that may have an allergy to aspirin should not be given the new formulation. Also, those dogs that are taking aspirin, steroids, or another non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) such as Rimadyl, EtoGesic, or Deramaxx should not be given the new formulation.

[Tundra_Queen]

Originally Posted by growler

Famotidine (Pepcid AC) http://www.petplace.com/drug-library...cid/page1.aspx is fine




I wouldn't use Kaopectate either most especially not with cats. Katopectate has the same main ingredients as Pepto Bismol. : http://www.petplace.com/drug-library...ate/page1.aspx

I haven't given kaopectate to a dog in a long while. I guess it was before the new stuff. Thanks for letting me know.

[dogcatharmony]

Thanks TQ and Growler about the pecid thing. I wouldn't have tried it anyway, just out of fear.

But I am very very happy to say that we have had a whole day of SOLID NORMAL POOP.

She had three of the biggest poops I have seen come out of that dog!

I got tough, I have a few extra syringes around the house for when Amos needs meds, well I sucked up yogurt and I force fed it to her. She did spit some out but a whole lot got in........one day of yogurt and we have solid poopies!! I also cut out the rice, I got a few sample bags of kibble and rolled a few kibbles around with the meat and drippings.

The kibble of her choice was called Canine plus.......don't know much about it but it has got to be a whole lot better than the Dog Chow that she likes to munch on once in awhile.

I am going to keep her on the meds for the full two weeks, even though she has solid poops, it took long for the med to work for whatever she had, so I just think it wise to finish the anti-botic. She is still on the cranky side, but not as much. I notice her cranky amps up when she is tired, which is about an hour after her pills. So I put everyone but her upstairs in a room and let her have a sleep.

So (knock on wood) things are looking up over here. Thanks all for your help, advice and good vibes!!

[growler~GateKeeper]

Pecid is okay for dogs & cats

Pepto is bad for dogs & cats

Very happy to hear Zoe is doing much better Finishing the antibiotics is a very good idea to make cetain whatever it is, is finally cleared up

this is the end of Zoe's tummy troubles

[rainbow]

YAY for Zoe's solid poops.

I can't remember ....has Zoe ever been checked for IBD or SIBO?

[Tundra_Queen]

Originally Posted by dogcatharmony

Thanks TQ and Growler about the pecid thing. I wouldn't have tried it anyway, just out of fear.

But I am very very happy to say that we have had a whole day of SOLID NORMAL POOP.

She had three of the biggest poops I have seen come out of that dog!

I got tough, I have a few extra syringes around the house for when Amos needs meds, well I sucked up yogurt and I force fed it to her. She did spit some out but a whole lot got in........one day of yogurt and we have solid poopies!! I also cut out the rice, I got a few sample bags of kibble and rolled a few kibbles around with the meat and drippings.

The kibble of her choice was called Canine plus.......don't know much about it but it has got to be a whole lot better than the Dog Chow that she likes to munch on once in awhile.

I am going to keep her on the meds for the full two weeks, even though she has solid poops, it took long for the med to work for whatever she had, so I just think it wise to finish the anti-botic. She is still on the cranky side, but not as much. I notice her cranky amps up when she is tired, which is about an hour after her pills. So I put everyone but her upstairs in a room and let her have a sleep.

So (knock on wood) things are looking up over here. Thanks all for your help, advice and good vibes!!

YEAHHHHHHHH!!! *doing the happy dance*
I'm so glad she is feeling better and sooooo happy for you as I know u were worried about her! I hope she keeps having good poops now and gets the rest she needs to be her old self again.

Debbie

[hazelrunpack]

Hurrah for Zoe!

for smooth sailing from here on out!

[dogcatharmony]

We are back to diarreha again!! And wicked farts.
One and a half days of good solid normal poop, and then gone just like that.

No change in what I am feeding her, still keeping it bland and easy to digest.

Rainbow, what is SIBO??

I have heard about IBD, don't know much about it or the symptoms, but I have never heard of SIBO. And how do they check for that? I see the vet on Friday so it is something to mention.

[dogcatharmony]

And now I am confused.........but i think my vet may have got his intestines mixed up because he was telling me the large intestine soaked up the food.

Maybe I heard him wrong, or maybe he mistakenly mixed them up....

arrrgghhhhh....

[kandy]

Sorry that Zoe isn't feeling well.

SIBO is 'small intestine bacterial overgrowth'. The condition causes the bad bacteria to flourish in the intestine, which causes diarrhea. If the condition goes undiagnosed, it can lead to damage of the intestine which stops it's ability to properly absorb the nutrients. Corn seems to really set it off - but any food that is especially grainy can aggravate it. Grains take longer for the dog to digest, and provide the perfect environment for the bacteria to really get going. I did some research on the condition for a friend of mine whose dog was diagnosed with it.

Were you able to get anymore yogurt into her?

[dogcatharmony]

Thanks Kandy.

She still gets two syringes full of plain yogurt. the syringe is 3cc's. And I sprinkle a dusting of achidophilus on her meat. She gets more of that into her because there is no smell or taste.

I was doing some reading on IBD, and it said the test was a biopsy. Well we have bloodwork scheduled for friday afternoon. The vet did say that xrays and then biopsy were the next steps if bloodwork did not come up with anything. But from my reading would an xray even be needed? Everything I read says that xrays aren't really a good dignostic tool when looking for stomach/intestine issues because some stuff just doesn't show up on xray.

Now here is an odd thing, today when she got up she was limping on her left front foot. I can see that the "knuckle" just at her dewclaw is swollen a bit. The bump is more pronounced than the one on the other foot. She lets me touch it, I checked her mobility and she shows no pain. She will put her full weight on it for awhile then she hobbles a bit. She did nothing yesterday, I have just been taking her far out back in my yard to poop. I cut down her excercise like someone suggested. She was fine when I went to bed, and she wasn't up over night.

Vet said to put some ice on it and he will have a look at it on Friday unless she goes lame in the next few days to treat it as a slight sprain.

I can't believe her crappy luck.........

[kandy]

A biopsy is used to diagnose IBD. Xrays don't do a good job of showing soft tissues - so unless he is looking for something that will show up on an xray, they aren't going to do any good. You might ask him what he'd be looking for on an xray. Normally an ultrasound is better for seeing soft tissues.

Are her antibiotics gone now? I'm wondering if the diarrhea came back after the last of the antibiotics cleared her system.

As for her foot - I'd bet she probably just stopped too quick chasing Dex or something. Have you checked her paw to make sure she doesn't have something stuck? Poor Zoe - she just never gets a break!

[dogcatharmony]

no, she is still on anti-botics until friday. Which reminds me, should I get the bloodwork done on friday or should I wait for the meds to clear her system? She is scheduled for 2 pills at 10am on friday, that will be the last of the meds.

I look up dog sprains, and her foot looks just like the pics do when they show hyperextension, the one leg leans back at the dew claw, can't remember the name (campar???). There will be no walk today, or the next few days, although she is sleeping lots with the meds anyway. She probably will be a little high strung at no excercise, but oh well it is for her own good.

Now I am getting worked up about her going in for bloodwork. I know they are going to have to muzzle her.

I didn't tell the story about her last visit when I asked the vet to look for earmites. Zoe had already jumped off the table when I remembered that because Dexter came to us infested with ear mites, that I should have her ears looked at. I bent down to pick her up and put her on the table and the vet said "no, I can look at her ears down there" I started to say I would feel more comfortable with her on the table when he leaned over top of her to look in her ear. I had a split second to grab her face, I saw the "cow eye" with the side tilted head......OMG!!! What ticks me off is that they have her listed as vicious on her file..........uhhh duhhh........now bloodwork.....yeah I will be present for that, no bringing her into a room without me.

[kandy]

Having her still on the antibiotics shouldn't affect the bloodwork.

That's too bad that she will have to be muzzled for the blood draw. I know Hazel absolutely hates the vet, but she just balks and refuses to move.

[rainbow]

Sorry to her that Zoe has the diarrhea back again and now her foot problem too. :sad:

Thanks kandy for explaining SIBO. I agree about the xray ....an ultrasound would be much better.

If you want more reading material on SIBO, here are some links that I had saved ....

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proce...A2002&PID=2580

http://www.gsdhelp.info/gastro/sibo.html

http://www.upei.ca/cidd/Diseases/GI%...overgrowth.htm


Good luck at the vet on Friday ...I hope you gt to the bottom of Zoe's problem soon.

[Dog Dancer]

Hope you get Zoe all sorted out soon. Poor puppers.

[Tundra_Queen]

Aw nuts dch! I'm sorry to hear zoe is not feeling well again. Grrr poor girl. I sure hope the vet can figure out what is causing it.

I didn't know Zoe was vicious..or is it just at the vet's?

Debbie

[dogcatharmony]

Thanks all, and thankyou Rainbow for those links, I am going to do some reading soon.

TQ Zoe isn't vicious, it was the one vet who marked her as vicious because she showed him teeth because he was acting like a tool. He is scared of Zoe and he shows it. He stands flat against the wall with his arms crossed, or hiding his hands behind his back. He acts very nervous around her, will not touch her unless I have a firm, and he wants a firm head lock. He sends her all the signals that he could be a potential threat. I requested that he not care for any of my animals when I bring them in. He wouldn't even look in her mouth or check her eyes and ears when we would go for our yearly health check up. He wouldn't look at her cracked tooth either.

The senior vet (he is great) doesn't even give her time to think about what he is doing. He talks to her the whole time, calling her by name, He shows no fear what so ever, he is thourogh and skilled. And Zoe loves the new lady vet, I still crack up when Zoe gave her kisses after she expressed Zoe's anal glands.

We have two more doses of pills left. Zoe had a walnut of a poop yesterday, took her 4 minutes to get it out and she was in some pain. But before that and after that she had more diarehha. So tomorrow is bloodwork day.......keep your fingers crossed for me!!