Puppy Diarrhea

[Dipsy600]

I know it says on this Fourm “* if your pet has Diarrhea seek vet care” trust me I have! Here’s my story:

Diesel is my Merel Great Dane Puppy. He is currently 6 months old and is so smart, he’s my life! He’s a cutie. After about 1 month I have had constant health issues with him and no one seems to know what’s wrong. We haven’t taken huge steps at the vet (biopsies, extensive tests, etc.) yet but we were trying to test for other things before taking those big steps (maybe allergies, Giardia, some sort of Bacteria, etc.). Well, it’s been months now and the issues persist and I thought I’d get other opinions to see if anyone has any suggestions before I put him through more stress with tests.

Here’s a timeline of things I can think of that might help:
4/29/07: Born
4/29/07 - 6/25/07: Feed a Raw Diet (no problems)
6/26/07: I receive him (8 weeks)
6/26/07: Feeding Canidae Adult Giant Breed kibble food. (2 cups a day)
6/27/07: Vet Visit- 1st- Parvo & Distemper, De-worming, Fecal Float/test
7/27/07: Vet Visit- 2nd- Parvo & Distemper, 1st- Bordetella, Interceptor (Heart Worm)
8/01/07: Diarrhea Starts (estimated- don’t know exact date)
8/14/07: Tried 10 days of Amber Technology Parvaid & Vibactra Plus (Natural supplement supposed to help with Giardia or bacterial infections) – Didn’t work
8/24/07: Switched food. Now using Nature’s Recipe Adult Giant Breed kibble food (noticed a small change first 3 days, but than back to Diarrhea) (16 weeks - 4 cups a day)
8/28/07: Vet Visit- 2nd- Bordetella, 3rd- Parvo & Distemper, Interceptor (Heart Worm), Test- Parasite Screening/Giardia (Negative)
9/07/07: Started using Nzymes; ox-e-drops, Antioxidant treats & Bac-Pac Plus supplements. – Have not seen any change due to these but continue to use them.
9/15/07: Vet visit- Started taking prescribed drugs: Amoxi tabs (qty. 14 & 200 mg) & Metronidazole tabs (qty. 14 & 500mg) – Saw a change towards the end of the pill cycle, stools firmed up a bit, but once pills were complete back to Diarrhea.
9/27/07: Switched food. Now using IVD- Innovative Veterinary Diets Kibble food. (Ingredients: Duck & Potato only, checking for allergies) WORKED!! Right away! Stools firmed up. (5 months- 7 cups a day)
10/12/07: Diarrhea is back!
10/15/07: Took Cow hoof away (has had these for quite some time now, but heard they can carry bacteria) – No change since taking them away, worse.

I notice that his stomach growls & gurgles loudly after eating. He also has bad gas. Some days he will have no energy and acts ‘down', maybe due to being sick. I don’t give any table scraps. I also don’t give any treats anymore. We don't have any house plants he can get into and outside i keep an eye on him all he chews on are sticks. When he has Diarrhea it’s bad and often, I feel horrible for the little guy. He looks good, nice and lean, healthy. I don’t know what to do. I guess the next step is extensive tests to see if there’s something ‘built’ wrong internally. If you have any idea what might be wrong with my baby, please let me know. Thanks so much,
Becky

*Attached is a picture of him at puppy graduation.

[luckypenny]

Welcome to the forum Dipsy600 .

Several things come to mind when reading your post. 1st, how many stool samples have you taken into your vet to analyze? Sometimes 1 isn't enough to test for certain parasites such as Giardia. How many times per day are you feeding your pup? If he's gassy, I would recommend feeding him smaller portions, perhaps 4-5 times a day to start and gradually bringing it down to 3 times as he gets better. You may also want to reduce the amount you are feeding him by 1/2 to 1 cup per day. An overfed pup will have diarhea. Do not give him water immediately before, during, or after his meals. He should also rest at least 1 1/2 - 2 hours after meals to prevent bloat (Danes are susceptible to this).

May I ask why you didn't continue with the raw feeding your breeder started with? Done properly, it may actually be what's best for your particular pup. Have you contacted her/him for info/advice?

Edited to add: OMG, he's adorable!!!

[the gang]

can you send me a private mess i have friends that wrk great dane rescue maby they can help brenda and the pins

[mummummum]

I'll come back to this tomorrow (I'm starting to seriously nod...) but one of the outcomes of vaccinosis are autoimmune diseases such as irritable bowel disorders.

Of course, it may not be as serious as all that ~ it could easily be a parasite. With their various life cycles you could get a few negative tests in a row before you "catch" it just as the parasite is shedding.

[Dipsy600]

I have only tried one stool sample. Next time i go in I’ll make sure we do another! Also, i feed 3 times a day 2 1/2 cups.

I didn't continue on the raw diet due to the fact that it's not something that i felt could fit into my life style, time(prep), a big freezer and it's expensive. Also if i figured if i needed someone to watch him if i were out of town it would be difficult for them. I know all that seems silly but if i must i will....at this point i'll do anything. But the thing is, the most recent food is just duck and potato, so it makes me wonder it the raw diet would have any effect. I guess i need to start learning about how to do it, so i can try it.

I tried the lowering of the amount of food and there was no change. And my vet advised against it. Sometime i wonder if i like my vets opinion on things or not... but that's another story.

Originally Posted by luckypenny

Welcome to the forum Dipsy600 .

Several things come to mind when reading your post. 1st, how many stool samples have you taken into your vet to analyze? Sometimes 1 isn't enough to test for certain parasites such as Giardia. How many times per day are you feeding your pup? If he's gassy, I would recommend feeding him smaller portions, perhaps 4-5 times a day to start and gradually bringing it down to 3 times as he gets better. You may also want to reduce the amount you are feeding him by 1/2 to 1 cup per day. An overfed pup will have diarhea. Do not give him water immediately before, during, or after his meals. He should also rest at least 1 1/2 - 2 hours after meals to prevent bloat (Danes are susceptible to this).

May I ask why you didn't continue with the raw feeding your breeder started with? Done properly, it may actually be what's best for your particular pup. Have you contacted her/him for info/advice?

Edited to add: OMG, he's adorable!!!

[Dipsy600]

*** I forgot to mention a few things. The other day he threw up at 6am. And then tonight at 9:30pm he threw up again. He obviously wasn't feeling good, you could see it in his body language.

***Also, he makes this weird noise sometimes. Like a cough almost...like he swallowed water down the wrong pipe and he's coughing. But it's not when he drinks. It's only randomly, usually right when he wakes up. But he did it a couple times during the day today. Kennel Cough maybe?

Man....he has problems.

[luckypenny]

Definitely try another stool sample, the fresher, the better.

And don't feel bad for not continuing the raw, I was just curious as to why. It's not for everyone and that's ok.

How about if you split the 5 cups of food into 3 meals. Might be easier on his tummy.

[Dipsy600]

I feed 7 1/2 cups 3 times a day...i feel like if i dropped it to 5 cups he would starve...he acts like 7 1/2 isn't enough.

Btw, thanks for your responses…I feel like I’m not alone with this anymore.

Originally Posted by luckypenny

Definitely try another stool sample, the fresher, the better.

And don't feel bad for not continuing the raw, I was just curious as to why. It's not for everyone and that's ok.

How about if you split the 5 cups of food into 3 meals. Might be easier on his tummy.

[Dipsy600]

What? you lost me? help with brenda and the pins?

Originally Posted by the gang

can you send me a private mess i have friends that wrk great dane rescue maby they can help brenda and the pins

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by Dipsy600

I feed 7 1/2 cups 3 times a day...i feel like if i dropped it to 5 cups he would starve...he acts like 7 1/2 isn't enough.

I'm sorry, I misread your post. I thought I read you feed him 2x per day. When Mummummum checks in tomorrow, she'll have a wealth of extra info for you.

By the way, you mentioned hooves...do you ever give him rawhide bones to chew on?

[Dipsy600]

I have never given rawhide, I’ve heard they are horrible. I've given only a few treats in his lifetime, only 3 treat bone thingys and a few handfuls of random treats here and there and that's it because I’ve read so much about Danes and their iffy digestive systems. So I’ve always been careful. I'm that person that researched for months before finding a breeder, the researched for months about owning and caring for a Dane and I’m so sad that after all that meticulous obsessive research I have a poor little sick Dane. I feel so helpless and like a horrible mom. But it's out of my hands right now and it's so frustrating!

I'm very excited for Mummummum's info, anything is great!

Originally Posted by luckypenny

I'm sorry, I misread your post. I thought I read you feed him 2x per day. When Mummummum checks in tomorrow, she'll have a wealth of extra info for you.

By the way, you mentioned hooves...do you ever give him rawhide bones to chew on?

[luckypenny]

In addition, re. the stool sample. Most vets will accept stool samples for analysis even if your dog isn't present. Just a bit of cost-saving info for you.

[Dipsy600]

Smart thinking! I'll do that! Cuz i have a feeling things are going to get even more expensive real soon...as if they weren't already Anything for my baby!

Originally Posted by luckypenny

In addition, re. the stool sample. Most vets will accept stool samples for analysis even if your dog isn't present. Just a bit of cost-saving info for you.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by Dipsy600

...I'm that person that researched for months before finding a breeder, the researched for months about owning and caring for a Dane...

And you find some solutions to his problems real soon.

[rainbow]

First of all, welcome to pets.ca and, Diesel is one good looking puppy.

If he was doing good on raw feeding, but you aren't comfortable with it, I would put him on a grain free kibble. My dogs are on Orijen and it is my favourite:

www.championpetfoods.com

There are others like Innova EVO (www.naturapet.com) and Go Natural Grain Free (www.petcurean.com).

Also, large breed dogs sometimes take longer for their digestive systems to mature. It may help if you add some plain organic yogurt to his kibble. If that doesn't help then some prebiotics/probiotics or digestive enzymes.

[rainbow]

Originally Posted by Dipsy600

What? you lost me? help with brenda and the pins?

I think Brenda meant to post like this:

can you send me a private mess i have friends that wrk great dane rescue maby they can help.


brenda and the pins

The "brenda and the pins" is her signature.

[Winston]

Oh boy this sounds like my boy all over again! Exact things symptom wise! He was checked for every parasite, giardia, he ended up taking metronadizole (not usre of spelling!) along with another anitbiotic and still didnt take it away. The gurgling of his belly used to really bother me for some reason. He would throw up bile! or just do the gagging cough thing. I changed from vet prescribed gastro food over to Orijen and honestly...no more problems at all...I think it was corn...not sure though..the difference with the Orijen is no, no gluten and no by products...an it is 75% meat 25 % fruit & veggies... I also used the holistic eaglepack food transition powder for about 2 weeks to help his tummy change over...

Oh! and his poops are absolutely perfect!

Maybe you could give it a try? Your boy is gorgeous by the way! I had a similiar puppy in Winston's obediance class like yours . his name was Earl...he was hilarious doing recalls! he would have to apply the brakes way earlier than most dogs!

Cindy

[Chicklet]

Some puppies don't react good to vaccinations and can have minor to serious complications throughout there lives as a direct result of it.

Puppies aren't the only ones, People to, My son was one of those unfortunate ones.

on another note,
heres a artical concerning different possible causes of Dog Diarrhea
http://www.masteryourdog.com/Dog_Diarrhea.html

[Dipsy600]

Thanks so much for the response! but actually we are on a duck and potato food right now that is just Duck and Potato, nothing else so i don't think a different food is the option he needs but i will defiantly look into it right now. i mean i guess i should try anything at this point! it's so confusing!

Also we are on Nzymes which are probotics, and i haven't seen any change. We haven't tried the yogurt thing because i was afraid to mess with his food intake.

Originally Posted by rainbow

First of all, welcome to pets.ca and, Diesel is one good looking puppy.

If he was doing good on raw feeding, but you aren't comfortable with it, I would put him on a grain free kibble. My dogs are on Orijen and it is my favourite:

www.championpetfoods.com

There are others like Innova EVO (www.naturapet.com) and Go Natural Grain Free (www.petcurean.com).

Also, large breed dogs sometimes take longer for their digestive systems to mature. It may help if you add some plain organic yogurt to his kibble. If that doesn't help then some prebiotics/probiotics or digestive enzymes.

[Dipsy600]

huh, never heard of that food. But if it worked on your dog and he had the same symptoms as my little guy than i might as well try it. It's strange though because the food we're on has only duck and potato, no other ingredients and it worked for 17 days! So why would it all of a sudden work right away and then after 17 days quit? weird. It has no Gluten but it does have duck by products, so i dunno. I'm starting to think it's something extreme internally that can't be fixed with food like leaky gut or irritable bowel. gosh!

Originally Posted by Winston

Oh boy this sounds like my boy all over again! Exact things symptom wise! He was checked for every parasite, giardia, he ended up taking metronadizole (not usre of spelling!) along with another anitbiotic and still didnt take it away. The gurgling of his belly used to really bother me for some reason. He would throw up bile! or just do the gagging cough thing. I changed from vet prescribed gastro food over to Orijen and honestly...no more problems at all...I think it was corn...not sure though..the difference with the Orijen is no, no gluten and no by products...an it is 75% meat 25 % fruit & veggies... I also used the holistic eaglepack food transition powder for about 2 weeks to help his tummy change over...

Oh! and his poops are absolutely perfect!

Maybe you could give it a try? Your boy is gorgeous by the way! I had a similiar puppy in Winston's obediance class like yours . his name was Earl...he was hilarious doing recalls! he would have to apply the brakes way earlier than most dogs!

Cindy

[mika140]

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but very curious and trying to learn fast

So...I looked up the kibble you said your dog is on. This is for the Innovative Veterinary Diets kibble, duck & potato (made by Royal Canin). Thought maybe it could help some of the other more knowledgable people on the forum:

Ingredients:
Dehydrated potatoes, duck, duck meal, potato fiber, canola oil (preserved with tocopherols, rosemary extract and citric acid), natural flavor, dicalcium phosphate, L-lysine, sodium chloride, salmon oil, evening primrose oil, DL-methionine, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, inositol, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, beta carotene, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), minerals (zinc oxide, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, iron proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite).

Here are the ingredients for the canned version, just in case you're adding some of that as well:

Ingredients:
Potatoes, duck, duck stock, duck by-products, canola oil (preserved with tocopherols, rosemary extract and citric acid), calcium sulfate, sodium tripolyphosphate, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, inositol, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, beta carotene, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), sodium chloride, salmon oil, evening primrose oil, minerals (zinc oxide, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, iron proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite).


Just from what I've learned so far....it doesn't seem like this diet is any better as far as fewer ingredients than the premium dry kibbles out there (Orijen, EVO, Solid Gold BATM, etc.). I don't see any real bad ingredients, other than menadione, which shouldn't really be included (and by-products, but they're only in the canned version).

If you do decide to look into food options more, here's another site that can help specifically with dog food:


http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index....grading_kibble
http://www.ourdogsonline.com/

[mika140]

If you are going to try the Orijen, I'd go with the 6 fresh fish formula (as it is grain free and doesn't have chicken or other protein sources that might be an issue for your dog).

I've also read on another post about a dog that was intolerant to proteins....if he was put on a novel protein he'd do well for a while, then become intolerant, switch foods, do well, become intolerant.....and it went on and on....I'll try to find the post in case you switch to another protein with the same results.

[Dipsy600]

So i looked into the Orijen Dog food, sounds great, looks like quality food. Too bad i have to get it shipped to me in Idaho from California, that's just one more big expense, along with the food being $48 for 29. lb bag, we goes through that in 14 days! golly. But another concern i have is I’ve been told by several Dane breeders and owners to feed no greater than 24% protein and fat levels between 14% and 14%. My vet on the other hand (who disagrees with all my Dane information) says that's silly, but he also says i should neuter at 6 months and give rabies shot with other shots at 6 months. I want to wait for 1 year for both of those.

Anywho, the levels of Orijen are: Protein 42.00%; Fat 16.00%. The Protein is so high, it worries me!

[Dipsy600]

Oh my goodness Protein intolerant!?!?! That's not good, what do you do about that? Yes i'd love to see the post if you can find it. Thank you very much.

Originally Posted by mika140

If you are going to try the Orijen, I'd go with the 6 fresh fish formula (as it is grain free and doesn't have chicken or other protein sources that might be an issue for your dog).

I've also read on another post about a dog that was intolerant to proteins....if he was put on a novel protein he'd do well for a while, then become intolerant, switch foods, do well, become intolerant.....and it went on and on....I'll try to find the post in case you switch to another protein with the same results.

[Winston]

All I can say is it worked for me! and I tried Duck and Potato too...worked only for short period...and then back to the gas, sores, itchies etc...

Best of Luck
Cindy

[Dipsy600]

Wow thanks for your interest and response! I checked out the other Blog site, thanks

Originally Posted by mika140

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but very curious and trying to learn fast

So...I looked up the kibble you said your dog is on. This is for the Innovative Veterinary Diets kibble, duck & potato (made by Royal Canin). Thought maybe it could help some of the other more knowledgable people on the forum:

Ingredients:
Dehydrated potatoes, duck, duck meal, potato fiber, canola oil (preserved with tocopherols, rosemary extract and citric acid), natural flavor, dicalcium phosphate, L-lysine, sodium chloride, salmon oil, evening primrose oil, DL-methionine, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, inositol, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, beta carotene, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), minerals (zinc oxide, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, iron proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite).

Here are the ingredients for the canned version, just in case you're adding some of that as well:

Ingredients:
Potatoes, duck, duck stock, duck by-products, canola oil (preserved with tocopherols, rosemary extract and citric acid), calcium sulfate, sodium tripolyphosphate, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, inositol, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, beta carotene, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), sodium chloride, salmon oil, evening primrose oil, minerals (zinc oxide, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, iron proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite).


Just from what I've learned so far....it doesn't seem like this diet is any better as far as fewer ingredients than the premium dry kibbles out there (Orijen, EVO, Solid Gold BATM, etc.). I don't see any real bad ingredients, other than menadione, which shouldn't really be included (and by-products, but they're only in the canned version).

If you do decide to look into food options more, here's another site that can help specifically with dog food:


http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index....grading_kibble
http://www.ourdogsonline.com/

[Dipsy600]

Well, thanks so much for the suggestion.... i'm defiantly considering it as we speak!

Originally Posted by Winston

All I can say is it worked for me! and I tried Duck and Potato too...worked only for short period...and then back to the gas, sores, itchies etc...

Best of Luck
Cindy

[Dipsy600]

A lot of you have been asking why I didn't just do the Raw Diet when i got him. I was a little worried about doing and being able to do it, $ wise and time wise. I don't have a meat grinder, a big freezer and I just didn't feel like it would fit my life style. But I told myself if it came down to it and i needed to do it i would. Well it's become apparent that it's time to try the raw diet. This will tell me for sure if it's a food thing Diesel is dealing with or an internal thing like Irritable bowel or leaky gut.

So, i haven't done any research on Raw Diets but i did talk to my Breeder who does do a raw diet and suggested i check out the Yahoo Groups on Raw Diets. Also to check out Dogwise.com and a book called 'Ultimate Diet; Natural Nutrition for your Dogs & Cats' By, Kymythy Chultze. So I’m going to check these things out but if anyone else has any suggestions about starting a raw diet for a Great Dane please let me know. I'm very nervous and anxious for this huge lifestyle change. I pray it works!

[pitgrrl]

Could you try a pre-made raw diet, like Bravo, Nature's Variety or Oma's Pride to buy you some time in terms of research and getting used to feeding raw?

I have a dog with all sorts of bizarre digestive problems which did get much, much better once he was switched to a raw diet. I use a combo of 2 pre-made foods basically because I really don't have the time to or space to do it all myself. It's certainly on the expensive side, but maybe as a temporary measure it's worth a shot?

[satchelp]

Perhaps he should be tested for EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency) which can occur in Great Danes. This would cause him not to absorbe enough of the food you are giving him and would cause diarrhea due to malabsorption of fats.