Delaying spay...conflicts with other females?

[bendyfoot]

I know there have been some discussions on the pros/cons of delayed sterilization for dogs. Our little gal Heidi is about the age that we would normally get her booked in for a spay (6 months). We have been considering delaying the surgery until she's closer to a year old, but it occured to me this weekend out of the blue:

is there any chance that if she has a heat cycle that our other dogs will react negatively to her? The other two are both females, and both spayed, but our oldest is an uber-dominant alpha biatch, and I'd hate to risk any negative interactions (i.e. huge fights) errupting because of swirling hormones...

does anyone know if there's a risk here?

[BenMax]

Infact it may have an effect on your alpha female. What type of dog is the one that is to be spayed?

[bendyfoot]

Little. Boston somethingorother mix.

[BenMax]

Well there will be of course a debate on when it is an appropriate time for the procedure. Personally since she is a small breed I would do it at the 6 month point and no sooner. Had you said the dog was a mastif I would have suggested that you wait out the year.

What does the vet suggest?

[bendyfoot]

Hasn't suggested anything, actually. They don't poke/bug us about too much "routine" stuff because we're pretty proactive and usually bugging THEM about things well in advance. This one, though, is new for me (considering the delay). Before, 6mos was automatic snip time. Her build/size has changed very little in the past 2 months, and I don't expect her to get much bigger.

[sugarcatmom]

I heard a podcast recently that talks about when, given ideal circumstances, the best time to neuter/spay a dog would be. Not before 14 months, according to Dr. Christine Zink. Scroll down to podcast #96 to listen to this interesting conversation: http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/pod...#showsummaries

[bendyfoot]

Originally Posted by BenMax

Infact it may have an effect on your alpha female. What type of dog is the one that is to be spayed?

You've seen this before, huh?

[bendyfoot]

SCM, can't download the podcast...

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by bendyfoot

You've seen this before, huh?

Certainly have. BTW - you will even see this with felines.

[hazelrunpack]

In my experience, bitches in heat get more submissive as they approach estrous. There may be more humping on the part of your other girls. But if Heidi is already subordinate to your alpha girl, likely she'll just submit.

Two of our girls were adopted intact and went into heat right before their spay appts ( our usual good luck.) We had two other spayed girls at the time. The only behavioral changes we saw between the girls was the increased frequency of humping each other and the increased submissiveness of the one in heat at the time. There was no increase aggressiveness apparent in any of them.

[bendyfoot]

I HATE humping, and don't let my dogs do it, ever.

Heidi's a cheeky beggar and likes to push the envelope but always eventually defers to Gracie. I'm not worried about Heidi becoming aggressive or anything, I'm worried about Gracie getting ansty/edgy about Heidi if she has a heat.

[hazelrunpack]

The only time Grace would likely get nasty about it would be if Heidi didn't back down. We don't have any uber-alphas here, but the ones in heat always deferred to the ones humping. They always backed down from the other girls. So, at least from what I've experienced, I don't think that dynamic would be a problem for you. As long as Heidi already defers, she's likely to continue to submit to Grace even during her heat.

We also discourage humping, but be prepared for the frequency of it to go up. That is one behavior that the hormonal flux will increase. Just break it up as you would normally and remember that eventually, it, too, shall pass.

[bendyfoot]

Ok, thanks for sharing your experience...

still not sure what to do...will have to discuss will DW and the vet...

(but the thought of humping....I HATE humping!!!!)

[hazelrunpack]

Originally Posted by bendyfoot

(but the thought of humping....I HATE humping!!!!)

Humping is the least of it. The mess isn't too fun...and having to watch them every minute of every day...for 2 weeks...

I'll tell you something about humping, though--our new boy, Brier, has been trying to find his place in the Pack and was challenging Ember (used to be beta...), our oldest. Ember kept getting hurt in the resulting set-tos. I was never so happy to see humping than when I caught Brier humping Ember a few weeks ago--it meant they'd finally worked out their respective status and likely we'll have no more injuries!! It's not a sexual thing...it's a way to work out pecking order...and I can tell you that once the pecking order is set, the whole Pack dynamic works so much more smoothly!!!

[bendyfoot]

oh I know, I know, it's such normal and such non-aggressive communication for establishing things, but it just drives me batty (bendyfoot = prude) !!!!!!

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by bendyfoot

SCM, can't download the podcast...

Can you save it to your desktop and then open it in Windows Media Player (or iTunes if you're on a Mac)?

[bendyfoot]

nope, I'm blocked.

[dogcatharmony]

Just my experience.....

A neighbour of mine a few houses down has an intact female (some kind of boxer mix). Of course her owners don't care and let her wander while she is in heat. Now this dog has played with my dog many many times before with no problems. Well she wandered into our yard while in heat, and my girl (who is fixed and apparently is a dominant female) went ballistic and had that dog by the throat the moment she came into reach. The second time that same dog came over, I went out to get mine before a fight and the dog in heat tried to mount my dog and all hell broke loose again. I had to go talk to the owner and tell him that I was worried that his dog was going to get seriously hurt (among possible other things) wandering around in heat.

They still play now when she gets loose, and as long as the other dog is not in heat everything goes fineGuess it could go either way depending on the dog

[hazelrunpack]

I wonder if the difference is that our dogs are all in the same Pack and so not a threat? An outside dog coming in might be considered an intruder?

So there ya have it, bendyfoot. I guess it can go either way! Not much help, eh?

[want4rain]

we are convinced that the conflict between Dee-o-gee and Prietta was because mom thought Dee-o-gee was fixed to find out she was in heat one day and tied up (youch) anyway, the two of them use to have a nice relationship. after that Prietta was very aggressive to Dee. to the ppint where my sister rehomed her because Prietta was drawing blood. id go ahead and get her fixed.

-ashley

[Longblades]

I heard a podcast recently that talks about when, given ideal circumstances, the best time to neuter/spay a dog would be. Not before 14 months, according to Dr. Christine Zink. Scroll down to podcast #96 to listen to this interesting conversation: http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/pod...#showsummaries

Very interesting, thanks for posting that podcast link. I've read some of Dr. Zink's articles so it was nice to hear her speak. It seems the second part of that podcast, the part with Parvene Farhoody, is relevant to the OP as it describes INCREASED aggression due to neutering, especially in the female dogs. That has been mentionned in more than one reading I've done. I hope everyone gets a chance to listen.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by bendyfoot

(but the thought of humping....I HATE humping!!!!)

Originally Posted by hazelrunpack

Humping is the least of it. The mess isn't too fun...and having to watch them every minute of every day...for 2 weeks...

Yep , lots of cleaning up to do , and everywhere in the house. I won't listen to the podcast , my opinion is : spaying and neutering as soon as possible. For every cats and dogs. Saw and heard too many accidents happening because of waiting.

[kathryn]

o_O

Why would you want to delay getting her fixed?

Uh, the sooner the better for everyone.

[hazelrunpack]

She may not have a choice, kathryn. Heidi is still getting over demodectic mange and the vet may want to hold off till her immune system has totally recovered.

And we always delay our spay/neuters now, for various reasons that I won't go into here. It's a personal choice that we feel benefits our animals in the long run, but it's not everyone's best choice. bendyfoot is certainly a responsible owner and will take care that Heidi is safe, even if it turns out the spay has to wait.

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by Frenchy

I won't listen to the podcast , my opinion is : spaying and neutering as soon as possible. For every cats and dogs. Saw and heard too many accidents happening because of waiting.

I know that being involved in rescue can taint your view of humanity and make you think that there isn't a single responsible person left on the planet, but what if there are people that can look after an un-neutered pet without it procreating willy-nilly, and what if it truly is better for the health of the animal to wait? Sometimes these issues aren't as cut-and-dried as you think.

[bendyfoot]

Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from, Frenchy, I really do (all my dogs are other people's throwaways from irresponsible breeding)...but you must know me well enough by now to know that I would NEVER allow unplanned puppies to come into this world, and that everything I do with my dogs is in their best interest, period. Bottom line: this is not a matter of "IF" I'm going to spay her, it's "WHEN".

Thanks for all your thoughts people....

I'm going to chat with the vet today about the mange complication...if it means postponing the spay, well, I guess we'll have to just manage anything that comes up, behaviourly or otherwise. Heidi is crated when not attended (she is a VERY naughty puppy) so there would be no risk of any fights or anything, and I can handle little dog messes, if it comes to that...

[Longblades]

this is not a matter of "IF" I'm going to spay her, it's "WHEN".

Exactly. A sentiment that is expressed in both Dr. Zink's and Parvene Farhoody's portions of the podcast.

[K9 Love]

I attended an agression seminar months ago and a study was shown that stated, according to gender, the most liklihood for problems would be with two SPAYED females. Apparently it has something to do with the lack of horomones. Number two was two intact males.

Of course I know a number of households with numerous spayed females that get along fine, so as long as your on top of everybody if or when she comes into heat, perhaps keeping them separated when not supervised until you get a good feel of how everyone else is feeling, I think you should be fine.

[bendyfoot]

Well, the official word from the vet is to hold off until we get an "all-clear" on the mange. We'll do a scraping in about a month, but we need two negative scrapings to declare the mange gone...and we've been warned it's likely to take 3-4 months to accomplish this. Looks like we're delaying out of necessity now, although I think I would still be considering it, regardless.

[BenMax]

So glad you have resolution and great advice from the vet.