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Old January 16th, 2008, 01:34 PM
scott9710 scott9710 is offline
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Shih Tzu Breeding question

I am new to breeding and my Shih Tzu dame had three very cut puppies 2 different colors, is it possible to control the marking of a litter example breeding a sire and dame that same color like full brindle and possibly the majority of the litter will be full brindle? or 2 parents that are black and white etc.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 01:43 PM
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Before anyone else replies you should read this post and all the other posts about careless breeding, I see the results first hand...then go to the vet and spay and neuter your animals. And when you are done that go to your local shelter to visit all the animals who need homes, including puppies.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=48451
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Last edited by Ford Girl; January 16th, 2008 at 01:46 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 02:33 PM
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stop breeding. Rescue work is really hard on me.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by scott9710 View Post
I am new to breeding and my Shih Tzu dame had three very cut puppies 2 different colors, is it possible to control the marking of a litter example breeding a sire and dame that same color like full brindle and possibly the majority of the litter will be full brindle? or 2 parents that are black and white etc.
This is the wrong site to be asking breeding questions. BYB's are not looked fondly upon.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 02:53 PM
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Give me a break you two, years ago when I looking for a German Sheppard I was checking the animal control centers and human society facilities 5 of them in Salt Lake City area, almost daily for months I never seen pure breeds there except Pit Bulls. Oops I almost forgot there was a westie too. The dogs that end up there are because of irresponsible people that let their dogs run wild and cross breed that no one wants. I do find it sad that people don’t take care of their dogs and what ends up happening to them, but I am not the problem, irresponsible owners are! That is like saying gun makers, Beer makers etc. are responsible for how some people abuse their products.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 02:59 PM
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This is the wrong site to be asking breeding questions. BYB's are not looked fondly upon.
Breed characteristics and traits

Wow I didn’t realize the forum was a animal rescue, I didn’t see that anywhere that this was a forum dedicated solely for this. I will move on then.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 03:01 PM
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You do know they can't call them pure bred at the shelter right? And I guess the litter of 12 week old labraddodles and the litter of black labs and the litter of cattle dogs were a figment of my imagination.

I must have been dreaming it...

There are 2 *****zu's there right now, adults mind you, but still dogs who need homes, so don't add to the problem. The world doesn't need more puppies!!
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Old January 16th, 2008, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by scott9710 View Post
Breed characteristics and traits

Wow I didn’t realize the forum was a animal rescue, I didn’t see that anywhere that this was a forum dedicated solely for this. I will move on then.
Yes, breed CHARACTERISTICS and TRAITS.

As in, I have a Springer Spaniel so I might ask how active the breed is and what they're tempermant is like, NOT how to breed them.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott9710 View Post
I am new to breeding and my Shih Tzu dame had three very cut puppies 2 different colors, is it possible to control the marking of a litter example breeding a sire and dame that same color like full brindle and possibly the majority of the litter will be full brindle? or 2 parents that are black and white etc.
Hi, I am also "new" to Shih Tzu breeding..........well to be honest I myself have not bred a litter. However I am mentoring under local breeder and have cared for many litters, assisted her in whelping. selecting stud etc. IMy goal is to learn to show, breed and trial Shih Tzu. I would also like to look into breeding Shih Tzu as "working dogs". I think they would make excellent ceasure alert dogs.

To answer your question.....it is possible to control colour, to a certian extent. It is unlikely that you will be able to control "markings" tho. Breeding a gold & white to a gold & white, should produce gold and white pups. Breeding a black & white to a black & white (which should not be done) should give you black & white.

While in general breeding colour to colour should give you the same colour, genetics does play apart. For example, if you breed a gold & white with a ressesive liver gene to a gold & white with a ressesive liver gene you will get liver pups (although not all of them will be liver).

Take Black & White for example. You should not breed Black & White to a Black & White for several reasons, there are increased health risks, also the colouring is off, you get a lot of ticking (little groupings of little black hair in the white.). The same applies to liver, black masked gold, black. And you should NOT breed all white, which is a serious gene mutation and can cause may deformities and health problems.

The same rules apply to black, livers, black mask gold, but we will keep using the Black & White example. To get the nicest Black & White its best to breed a Black & White to a Gold & White. You will most likely get a mix of Black & White and Gold & White pups. If the Gold & White parent has a black or black & White parent, you may get all Black & White or Solid Black pup(s). Breeding two gold & white dogs who each have a Black & White parent will also produce Black & White pups, although the chances are less likely.

Again Genetic's rule all so any ressesive gene's and colours will over ride the theory, but essentially, what I've told you is correct and the normal flow of thing (at least from my research and personal experience).

I would recommend that you find a local breeder to mentor under. Most are pleased to share their knowledge with you and are excited to welcome new people. There is a lot involved in breeding good quality pups. Feel free to post other questions. Asking is the only way you'll learn.

I've only been learning for 4 years, there's so much to know. If I don't know the answer I'm sure I know someone who does. I'd love to see pics of your pups and your adults.

All the best!
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Old January 16th, 2008, 07:03 PM
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Bethaliz

Thank you for your input, I would like to breed Shih Tzu’s that are brown with black mask I think they are beautiful dogs, when they mature they turn a cream to very light brown color but retain the mask, beings you work with a breeder do they sale well? If not what is the most popular color? I used to be a buyer for a store for many years and realize that a buyer can’t buy large quantities of a product because they happen to like the product, they have to know what the consumer wants.

I just started breeding Shih Tzu’s this year , because we had one given to us a 4 years ago she was a great little dog, she slept with me, sat with me while watching TV, she had the cutest expressions and always wanted to be held and loved. I feel in love with the breed immediately, she died at 14 years old last summerL I have always only been a German Sheppard guy until Gizmo (gizzy) came into our lives, now we have Snickers and Tiny Jen that have matured enough to create a litter. Enough of my rambling about them. Here are some pictures of them.



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Old January 16th, 2008, 07:36 PM
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Forgive my ignorance scott9710, I don't know much about breeding as a business. I'd like to educate myself with your help if that's possible. So, a good breeder would breed for the looks of a dog? And for what the popular demand is? Is there a lot of money to be made by breeding? Like if I started here at home (great idea to work from home btw), I would just sell to a pet shop? When you mention you bought for a store, is that like a broker? Could I sell to a broker? What would be more financially advantageous? Is there alot of competition between breeders or are there enough buyers to go around? I'd like to learn more about the kind of breeding/buying/selling you do.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 07:52 PM
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It's not like we get breeders here sharing info very often...what a treat .
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Old January 16th, 2008, 08:06 PM
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I've only been learning for 4 years, there's so much to know.
All the best!
oh great ! BYB educating another BYB

Quote:
Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
It's not like we get breeders here sharing info very often...what a treat .
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Old January 16th, 2008, 08:17 PM
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but I am not the problem, irresponsible owners are! That is like saying gun makers, Beer makers etc. are responsible for how some people abuse their products.
You are the problem!! Don't you get it, you are an irrseponsible owner if you breed your dogs when there are so many being destroyed daily!!

Your also so not being very honest, because if you were looking for a pure bred GSD 2 years ago there were hundreds to be found!! But I guess you must have been looking for a "breeding" dog, so I guess your right, there weren't many of those
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Old January 16th, 2008, 08:23 PM
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You are the problem!! Don;t you get it, you are an irrseponsible owner is you breed your dogs when there are so many being destroyed daily!!

well said
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Old January 16th, 2008, 08:30 PM
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well said
Thanks

It's funny how these people like to blame everyone else! And they don't even see themselves as the problem, like the song....It wasn't me
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Old January 16th, 2008, 09:27 PM
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Well.....I wont' comment on what others have said, but those are very cute puppies!!!

Please do all your homework before you get into breeding, have a great mentor, know what you are doing, get all the tests done to ensure that your gizzy will produce an excellent line of pups and then if everything isn't PERFECT, get your little girl spayed.

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Old January 16th, 2008, 09:48 PM
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When YOU can guarantee that the people you SELL your dogs to are responsible owners, I'm sure people would be more open to your decision to force your dog to have a litter/s. Fact is, you can't.

How do you think most of the animals came to be who are abandon and in shelters/foster homes now????

Once you make your MONEY off the puppies you have no idea what happens with them. Why not get a real job to support yourself?
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DON’T BREED OR BUY WHILE SHELTER PETS DIE!
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Old January 16th, 2008, 09:56 PM
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Why not get a real job to support yourself?
Very well put Dracko.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:22 PM
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[QUOTE=scott9710;532081]Bethaliz

Thank you for your input, I would like to breed Shih Tzu’s that are brown with black mask I think they are beautiful dogs, when they mature they turn a cream to very light brown color but retain the mask, beings you work with a breeder do they sale well? If not what is the most popular color? I used to be a buyer for a store for many years and realize that a buyer can’t buy large quantities of a product because they happen to like the product, they have to know what the consumer wants.

QUOTE]


I'm glad I could give you the information you're looking for. I also think that Blak Mask Gold are lovely looking. They are difficult to reproduce tho. It's an imperfect science breeding black to gold & white.

I am concerned about your comments it sounds like you wish to sell pups to pet stores or just to sell them to make money. When you breed properly and responsibly you LOSE money. It costs a lot of money to show your dog to it's championship (or trial the dog). ANy dog you wish to bred should be shown/trialed to ensure that it meets the breed standard, and is capible of preforming it's original task. IN the case of a Shih Tzu, conformation showing is the best avenue, as they are not working dogs. Showing is a lot of work. It involved 10 hours or more each week spent grooming a Shih Tzu, plus daily training and excerise. IF you get a handler to show your dog yoru costs triple.

Then when your dog is ready to breed and championed there is health and genetic testing. Also the cost of stud service. Of course if there is trouble whelping there are extra vet cost. Also there are regualr vet cost to check the pups, vacinate, tattoo, microship etc.

It can cost well over $20, 000.00 for ONE parent to breed. So you will spend $20, 000.00 on a bitch who will have at the most 3 litters and you'll be luck if she has 3 pups a litter. So maybe in total 9 pups. Say you are really lucky and you get rich buyers who will pay $1000.00 for a pup (which is hard....and pet stores wont pay that much). So you put out 20 grand and at the most you'll make back 9 grand. Thats a HUGE loss. You really have to love your breed to put that much into them. Its not something to take on lightly.

NOw lets say, you don't want to be so reputable and you don't want to show etc and you just want to breed to sell in a pet store.....consider this

Shih Tzu's are sociable dogs who thrive on companionship. In order for them to still be cute and cuddly in a pet store you have to give them up at 6 weeks (They should be with their mother until AT LEAST 7 weeks (fully weaned) and another week with their litter mates for socialization). Shih Tzu's tend to do better if they are kept with their litter until 10 - 12 weeks. When you give them up early they are loosing the time when their mother and litter mates teach them interaction skills, such as no biting, pack leadership, doggie manners, the art of cuddling with one another.

When the pups are in a pet shop at 6 weeks they never learn not to bite, which can get them put down. They can be come dominate, because they don't learn to yeld to the pack leader. Or on the reverse they become overly shy and scared because they don't learn confidence from their littermates. The list goes on. Mainly you will not be doing the best for those beautiful pups. Because when push comes to shove most people don't care what their dog LOOKS like, they care what the dog BEHAVES like. IF another week or two will provide them with a better pet, they'd rather have that.

Seriously consider what you're willing to put into your dogs to breed properly. Talk to a local breeder and see what is really involved in breeding. Don't rush in blindly, because it's lives that you're dealing with.


FRENCHY - "oh great ! BYB educating another BYB "

I am not a BYB I have NEVER EVER bred a litter. I am MENTORING under a RESPONSIBLE breeder. When I am finacially able to invest I will. I enjoy helping train, groom and show her dogs. I have helped care for litters. But I understand the risks and responsibilies...........Think before you start making accusations.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:31 PM
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But here you are enabling a BYB.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:32 PM
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Wow I have a lot of people to responded too here that are fanatics! That are one sided bigots that have limited reading comprehensive skills, remember I just asked a question and I get attacked for no reason!

Quote:
Originally Posted by happycats View Post
You are the problem!! Don't you get it, you are an irrseponsible owner if you breed your dogs when there are so many being destroyed daily!!

Your also so not being very honest, because if you were looking for a pure bred GSD 2 years ago there were hundreds to be found!! But I guess you must have been looking for a "breeding" dog, so I guess your right, there weren't many of those
First off I never said I was looking a GSD 2 years ago, scroll back learn to read and comprehend before shooting off the mouth and showing you lack of intelligence. So I will elaborate which I didn’t think I needed too, I did find my GSD in 1990 at the Humane Society and adopted him we named him Simba he was a neutered 6 month old pup, I was searching for looks and temperament, I have always enjoyed the GSD breed, Simba passed away 2003 old age and hip dysplacia if I spelled it right. It was heart breaking time for me. happy cats I have a choice name for you but I am sure I can’t say it on the forum! So I will call you a jerk!
BTW I am sure Simba was a better dog than the person you are!

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Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
Forgive my ignorance scott9710, I don't know much about breeding as a business. I'd like to educate myself with your help if that's possible. So, a good breeder would breed for the looks of a dog? And for what the popular demand is? Is there a lot of money to be made by breeding? Like if I started here at home (great idea to work from home btw), I would just sell to a pet shop? When you mention you bought for a store, is that like a broker? Could I sell to a broker? What would be more financially advantageous? Is there alot of competition between breeders or are there enough buyers to go around? I'd like to learn more about the kind of breeding/buying/selling you do.

Lucky seems you are trying to get a dig on me, I was a buyer for a major grocery company not pet shops! I’m not breeding bit bulls or grey hounds etc. for profit and the other disposable breeds that always find themselves being destroyed or these damn designer breeds that people have know idea that that cute puppy will grow up looking nothing like they expected or temperament was bad later in life. By the time and money invested so far with my first litter I will be lucky to make $50.00. I have no idea about competition with breeders, I would never sell to a store they keep the puppies caged all day long! Simply put I fell in love with the breed and they are very loving little dogs and the phone calls I have received so far are from elderly women wanting a companion, I can’t think of a better breed of dog. As far as looks go hat is important. Lets explore this, every parent wants, wishes and believes their child is cute but that is what they want looks we are vain as a species. How many children get adopted because the have problems like deformities, dwarfs, retardation, clef palette etc. or just dumped in dumpsters or aborted should we require all people be fixed? Should we require all dogs and cats fixed so in the future they become extinct? So I decide to breed a wonderful dog from home, that I enjoy being with and working with I am a horrible person? Remember I am not a breeder that has hundreds of dogs in cages just to breed! Also how many of you people out there in cyber land has parents or grandparents in old age homes because you don’t have time to take care of them or time to visit them, but get self righteous about dogs? At least I was with both my wonderful dogs until their last moments holding and loving them, thank God for cyberspace because as a guy I would never admit in person I cried when they both passed away.
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:36 PM
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Give me a break, buddy.
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Dracko (GSD) male - 2000 - 31/02/2011 RIP my boy
Mochie (Balinese X/feline) female - 1994 - 07/01/2010 RIP my sweetie
Ginkgo (Siamese X/feline) female - 6 years
Smitty (long-haired white/feline) male - 5 years
Teiya (Ragdoll x/feline) female - 3 years
Kinsey (Ragdoll x/feline) female - 3 years

DON’T BREED OR BUY WHILE SHELTER PETS DIE!
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:38 PM
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I’m not breeding bit bulls or grey hounds etc.
oh god not a BIT BULL!!
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:39 PM
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FRENCHY - "oh great ! BYB educating another BYB "

I am not a BYB I have NEVER EVER bred a litter. I am MENTORING under a RESPONSIBLE breeder. When I am finacially able to invest I will. I enjoy helping train, groom and show her dogs. I have helped care for litters. But I understand the risks and responsibilies...........Think before you start making accusations.
If you care so much about the breed , why don't you foster instead , help the ones who are already there (yes , just take a look at petfinder , there are a few waiting to get adopted , and what about the ones who get put down because of overcrowded shelters) instead of coming here and help BYBs create even more ? I really don't get how you can still come back here over and over again , talking about the same . When you know there's a lot of us volunteering for rescues. Why don't you just find yourself a nice BYB forum ? You really seem to enjoy coming here to piss us off. Don't you have anything better to do ??
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:44 PM
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the phone calls I have received so far are from elderly women wanting a companion,
then look at petfinder and help those homeless dogs get adopted !!!
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Old January 16th, 2008, 10:45 PM
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