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Old February 2nd, 2005, 09:13 AM
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Should we???

While I was at the vet the other day one of the ladies was talking to me and we were talking about the puppy and stuff. I mentioned getting him fixed and she fliped out she was like if you get a Rott fixed he is worthless. So I told her about all the unwanted puppies and they should be fixed to stop that. She just keep saying you are making a mistake, is this true? She also mentioned docking his tail. She said he is a health reason. I mean that is why they dock is what she was saying. So we do this? I thought this is awful but if it is a health risk I would do it I just do not want to.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 09:32 AM
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I think it depends on what you value in your dog. Neutering tends to make them less aggresive and less likely to try to stray. Hormones really drive all animals. With respect to docking. IMHO it is totally uncalled for and is done for "aesthetic" reasons only.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 09:35 AM
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OK, first, there is no reason to dock his tail!! At his age it's amputation. many Rottweilers in Europe are undocked now; in Germany, Austria, & several other countries, it's permissible to show them even with tails. (Not so here in the US, Canada I think you can.)
Anyhow there is no health reason to dock.

Neutering - of course it does not make him "less" of a Rottweiler, that is silly. However, many people do believe it is better to wait until the dog is over a year old, when the long bones stop growing. There is evidence that early neutering may predispose a Rottweiler to bone cancer, something that is tremendously common in the breed. I can provide cites for this if anyone wants.

I've had Rottweilers for almost 20 years, and each has been spay/neutered (though I did wait with two males until they were over a year old) and I assure you they are not "worthless" dogs! They can even compete in anything except conformation.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 09:37 AM
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That is what I thought about the docking tail thing. And as far as do we want a killer dog. NO He is a pet not a source or protection. I think we should get him fixed but just wanting to make sure it would not mess him up or making him aggressive or something like that. I did not see how it could but I do not know everything so thought I would ask.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 09:38 AM
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Carina can I see those sites? We have Meater fixed and I saw no reason not to do the same with him.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 09:42 AM
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You were the one who was the informed person in that conversation. You are not a breeder, plus intact males have a higher incidence of testicular cancer and can be more aggressive and dominant. Docking tails this is really a choice I prefer to not do this. It is not necessary and poses no health risks actually docking the tail could be risky because he would need to be sedated. There is always a risk when anestesia is involved. The least amount of times you have to sedate them the better, especially with large breeds and giant breeds. You may want to ask Lavenderott about anestesia for rotties because Mastiffs require a different one then other breeds. It may be something you would want to do some research on regarding health issues and just to learn more about what they are prone to and things that are not good for them every breed has different risk factors. Carina brought up a really good point about waiting till they are a year or up to 18 months to neuter allowing for proper bone and joint developement. Also I know with Mastiffs you don't use puppy food the protien levels are too high. Again ask the Rottie owners about this as well.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 09:43 AM
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My dog Duke was neutered when he was six months. He is still a happy healthy boy, quite rambunctious(however you spell that) still as well but displays no aggression. He still has quite a personality and can be quite saucy at times (teenager). I really think it makes thier lives less complicated and relaxed.(not to mention mine) Mating behaviors and drives have to be frustrating for dogs that are not bred. The procedure was simple and Duke was back to himself when we picked him up the next day, could hardly see the incision and he didn't bother with it.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 09:52 AM
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Here's the site I was thinking of.
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/con...ull/11/11/1434

"In summary, this study found that male and female Rottweilers with the shortest lifetime gonadal exposure had the highest risk for bone sarcoma. Dogs that underwent early elective gonadectomy had a one in four lifetime risk of bone sarcoma development compared with a significantly reduced risk among dogs that were sexually intact throughout their lifetime."
Also note that certain large breeds, like Rottweilers, are 185 times more likely to get osteo than small dogs.

The link has been suspected for years, this is not the only study....my contract with Cooper's breeder gave me until 24 months to neuter him.
Rottweilers as a breed have no special anesthetic needs.
Yes, neutering is a very simple operation for most dogs & they are up and about the next day.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 10:05 AM
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Docking Tails

I believe this is a cosmetic thing, for most dogs that have come to be recognized to look a certain way. I know that all the rotts I have ever had or worked with had their tails docked, but as puppies when they were 3 days old.
I think it is not completely necessary,I think it is like plastic surgery in some people, they want a certain "look" and can only attain it through surgery.
As for the neutering.............. except for conformation I don`t believe that there is any downside to it. I do think that a lot of people will wait until the dog is older so that they reach their optimun growth, however, I found that some people like the "bitchy face" a male can have if he is neutered early. The male rotts I worked with were a mixed bag of looks. The ones that were neutered before a year tended to be somewhat smaller but had the most gorgeous faces.......... more like a female head............than the ones that had been neutered after a year old. The males that had been neutered after a year had a more jowely look to them.

Since he is going to be a pet there is no reason not to neuter him, and when you decide to do it, it is basically up to you.

I think they are gorgeous dogs with or without tails. Because he is a rotti you won`t have to worry about whether he is aggressive or not for a reason for people to think twice about just sauntering into your yard, their presence alone makes people think twice. Too bad most people don`t realize that they are the biggest sucky babies!
In my experience with the rotties I knew, the only ones that showed any aggression were the ones that had been mistreated, and those ones had a good reason to be aggressive and not trust humans. They were all rehabilitated, even though some took a LONG LONG TIME.

My suggestion for you is to read a LOT about them and to ask LavenderRott about what you can expect for temperment and training. They do seem to go through a few periods in their development where they will try to "test" you and win alpha dog position. Like all dogs I think teaching them manners and obedience is extremely important. I despise dogs that have no manners................ no matter what breed they are.

Good luck with the puppy and kudos for you for handling the situation at the vet the way you did.......... nice to see someone stating actual "facts" in defense of their decision.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 10:06 AM
yvonnem yvonnem is offline
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tail docking

The only practical reason I have ever seen for tail docking is something called "happy tail". Large dogs have big tails which they wag quite fiercely. Sometimes, in doing so, the dog will damage the tail and cause it to bleed. It is hard to get it to heal, as tail bandages get knocked or gnawed off and it is impossible to keep a big friendly dog from banging his tail against walls, furniture, people, etc.

Having said that, I have only ever seen 1 case of happy tail bad enough that the vet suggested taking the whole tail off....
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 10:15 AM
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Why Are Dog's Tails Docked?

1. To avoid tail damage

A number of working gundog breeds have to hunt game through heavy vegetation and thick brambles, where their fast tail action can easily lead to torn and bleeding tails which are painful and extremely difficult to treat. Docking the end of the tail eliminates the risk of injury.

Working terriers are docked for the same reason. In addition, terriers which are bred to hunt below ground for purposes such as fox control, have their tails docked to a length which is more practical when working in a confined space.

Other non-working breeds which have an enthusiastic tail action, are also liable to damage their tails, even in the home.

Since docking was banned in Sweden in 1989, there has been a massive increase in tail injuries amongst previously docked breeds. Within the 50 undocked Pointer litters registered in that year with the Swedish Kennel Club, 38% of dogs suffered tail injury before they were 18 months old and in 1991, the number of individuals with tail injures had increased to 51% of the group.


2. For reasons of hygiene

Long haired, thick coated breeds like the Yorkshire Terrier and Old English Sheepdog are docked to avoid the hair around the base of the tail becoming fouled by faeces. Even with constant grooming and washing, such fouling is unpleasant. If allowed to get out of hand, it can lead to severe problems of hygiene, or even flystrike and subsequent infestation by maggots.

Hygiene problems can be greatly reduced or eliminated altogether by docking.
3. To maintain breed standards

Breeds which have been docked over many generations have been selected for specific qualities of build and conformation, but not for tail length, shape or carriage.

If left undocked, it is unlikely that the best dogs would carry good tails. In seeking to maintain the quality of the breeds, breeders would therefore be left with a diminished number of suitable sires and dams. The genetic pool would be reduced, greatly increasing the risk of hereditary diseases taking hold. Some breeds could even disappear for ever.


How is docking carried out ?

There are two methods of docking. The majority of breeders used the technique known as "banding", in which a ligature, normally an orthodontic band, was placed over the end of the puppies tail at 24-96 hours old. This effectively cuts off the blood supply to the end of the tail, which comes away within 3 days.

Most vets used to cut the tail with surgical scissors. There is generally no need for stitches, but on occasions these can be used, especially with the larger breeds. Nowadays in the UK, vets are more than likely to use the banding method.
Is docking cruel?

Docking is carried out when puppies are tiny. Their eyes are not yet open and long experience indicates that carried out correctly, the procedure causes no pain or discomfort. Indeed, some puppies which are docked whilst they are asleep, do not even wake up. After docking, puppies will immediately return to their dam to feed, and there is no evidence that development or weight gain is in any way arrested by the docking procedure.

Nor does a dog which has been docked as a puppy have any problems with balance or communication.

If, however, tail damage occurs during adulthood and docking has to be carried out for therapeutic reasons, normally under anaesthetic, a dog can be seriously distressed and the healing process can be painful and protracted.
Do dog breeders want the law changed?

All responsible breeders consider the welfare of dogs to be of the utmost importance. They recognise that docking should be carried out by competent, experienced individuals such as veterinary surgeons. They therefore wish to see vets free to continue docking, without the threat of action for professional misconduct hanging over them.

But, just as farmers in the U.K. are permitted to dock lambs, breeders believe that there is a strong case for suitably qualified lay people to be authorised by law to dock puppies.

The Council of Docked Breeds has therefore proposed the introduction of a docking Register listing those who would be trained and certified in docking.

Breeders and owners maintain that, far from improving the lot of docked breeds, the effective abolition of docking would lead to a crisis in animal welfare.



Pain felt by puppies

There follows a letter from Prof. Dr. R. Fritsch, Leader of the Clinic of Veterinary Surgeons, Justus-Lieberg-University, to the German Kennel Club.
Quote

I have been asked by the German Kennel Club to give a professional opinion on the following questions:

*

Will the removal of the tail and dew claws without anaesthetic on a four day old puppy, cause considerable pain?
*

Is it necessary from the veterinary point of view, to shorten the tail or amputate the dew claws of certain breeds of dogs?

The docking of tails and the removal of dew claws in puppies less than 4 days old without anaesthetic, is not connected with any serious pain in such a way that it cannot be allowed from the point of view of the protection of animals.

The reason for this is (**there are two expressions in German for which there is no English equivalent): "Nestfluchter" which means a young bird or young animal which very soon will leave its nest or its mother and therefore will have to find its own food; and "Nesthockern" which means a young animal that stays for a long time in the nest with its mother and is fed by her) the new born puppy belongs to the Nesthockern, in contrast with the horse, cow, sheep, pig and goat which are regarded as Nestfluchter.

The animals in the Nesthockern group are born relatively immature, completely naked, blind, deaf, very immobile and very helpless. Their nervous system at birth is not even fully developed. There are still cell divisions in the brain and some of the nervous threads are not fully developed. In psychological tests, it has been determined that the time between the nervous impulse and reaction (chronaxie) takes 3-4 times longer than it would in an adult. After about 10-14 days, when the animals eyes are opened (until then it has been more like an embryo) it is possible to determine the normal value of the impulse. In 1941, Volkhov determined that animals, at this period of life, had very little feeling of pain. The conscious feeling of pain is still not very likely at that age.

Schmidker wrote in his doctorate in 1951 about the feeling of pain in new-born puppies: "Incomplete development of the nervous system at the time of birth and the very high chronaxie value in connection with the fact that the animal is not able to react effectively to pain, gives us every reason to believe that the actual feeling of pain is very low in the new-born of this group of mammals (dogs). In other words, at this age and biological condition, it would have no absolute meaning to talk about pain". You therefore do not have to worry or fear that the dog will be made to suffer pain or psychological pain, if the tail has been docked or the dew claws removed, in the first few days after birth.

It is completely different though, with the Nestfluchter (animals which leave their nest or mother just after birth). In these animals, the nervous system id fully developed just after the moment of birth. All senses that serve to get rid of enemies and pain are fully developed. One can neither from physiological knowledge nor from just observation, say that these young animals feel a lot less pain than adults.

It would therefore be a contradiction in the law, for the Protection of Animals, to permit the shortening or docking of tails in pigs and lambs without anaesthetic, because they have fully developed threshold of pain, and , at the same time, forbid the docking of dogs. It is absolutely certain that the docking of tails on small lambs and pigs and also the castration of young pigs, goats and calves during their first days of life, will cause considerable pain if done without an anaesthetic. However, from the point of view of the docking of dogs, whose nervous system is not fully developed during the first few days of life, is completely acceptable from the point of view of the protection of animals.

The removal of dew claws is necessary in order to avoid later damages and illnesses. It is also recommended to dock the tails inbreeds which have long thin, weak and sparsely coated tails, in order to avoid later sickness and damage. At the same time tails should be docked in breeds that are used in such a way that there is a risk of injury to a tail e.g. hunting dogs. It is beneficial to avoid painful; injuries and therefore in the interest of the PREVENTION OF CRUELTY to animals.

The dew claw is the rudimentary first toe. They are often injured and the nail can grow into the skin causing considerable inflammation. The dog can easily catch them on different objects because they just hang on the side of their paws a non-functioning objects and can therefore damage themselves quite seriously. It is therefore in the interests of the law to recommend that these claws are removed as early as possible. Their removal is best done in the first week with a little clip with scissors.

The dogs tail on the other hand, whether it be in kennels or around the home, is in constant danger of damage by being hit against hard objects like walls, fences, tables, chair legs, radiators and of being trapped in doors. These injuries usually result in sores at the tip of the tail, which do not heal well because there is a poor blood circulation in this part of the tail.

By licking and chewing, the dog makes the condition worse and the skin and tissue will die. These conditions of necrosis of the tip of the tail is often seen in Great Danes and Dalmatians. German Shepherds are also often seen in veterinary surgeries.

This can sometimes be treated with partial amputation but secondary problems can occur in the healing process because the very poor blood supply is not conducive to this. This actually makes it necessary to amputate the tail several times before the healing process is achieved.

Hunting dogs are in great danger of damaging their tails when thrashing through thick undergrowth and young forest. Only tails that are thick and covered with long hair are protected, such as those of the wolf and fox.

Apart from the dangers that the dog is constantly confronted with in the human environment (as well as the fact that they have less hair than the wild dog) many breeds have a very lively temperament which often cause tail tip damage in the course of their exuberance, e.g. an undocked Boxer will constantly be subject to injury when using its tail when he expresses happiness.

As far as the behaviour of dogs is concerned, I cannot see that their ability to express happiness should in any way be altered by the docking of the tail.

From the veterinary point of view, therefore, there is absolutely no reason why the banning of the docking of dogs tails should be beneficial to them. In actual fact, it would be detrimental to their well-being if docking was abolished. Tail docking protects the dog as it is done to avoid problems with tail injuries and subsequent painful treatment that would often occur.

It is called Prevention!!
End of Quote

** Since its publication, we have been asked to point out that there are English equivalents for these terms:
Nestfluchter = precocial
Nesthockern = altricial

Taken from (Emphasis added by me)
New Zealand Docked Breeds Council

faqs on docking
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 10:17 AM
sammiec sammiec is offline
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Princess, please don't doubt yourself! You are very knowledgable about dogs. Many people that are not so smart like to push their views and regergitate false information.

There are no health implications that could cause serious illness or death with having a Rottie without a docked tail, BUT their are health implications to having an intact male!!!
It's like when you have children and everyone has to butt in with their worthless information; sometimes you just have to smile and walk away.
Besides, I think that for the dogs safety, he's a little too old now to be docking isn't he?? Docking should be done at a VERY young age - like 3-4 days (If I am wrong, please correct me)... otherwise there is more risk of pain and suffering.

Congratulations for taking a smart and responsible step to helping this dog have a happy and healthy life. Unless this person is qualified to preach about the health concerns to animals, just let it roll off your back!
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 10:35 AM
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I forgot to give my opinion, that doesn't happen very often.

Get the damn dog fixed. ( Ask yourself - Do I want to try to seperate my Rott from a Rh. Ridgeback or Great Pyrenees having a spat over a bitch in heat at the park?)

Don't dock unless it becomes a problem later on. (unlikely for a house pet)
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 10:37 AM
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Yeah if you are having a tail docked you need to do it early in their life. I do not think they are as cute with their tails gone. I love his tail it is so sweet. I will have to go home and take a picture and post his tail. It is so little. Meater when he was little his tail was always bigger. When I talked to the vet about fixing him they said about 6mts. when both test. drop. So I guess I need to keep an eye out. LOL little man lift your leg. LOL
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 10:42 AM
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oh I forgot to mention, Duke is just over a year now and doesn't lift his leg and may never.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 10:48 AM
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Buddy used to lift his leg but since he was neutered he is getting lazier and lazier about it. I would wait till he is older than 6 months, a year is probably good. Unless you run into behaviours that are not acceptable aggression etc.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 11:10 AM
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Thank you all so much for all your help.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 01:02 PM
sammiec sammiec is offline
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There's no problem with neuturing right at six months. I am sure that everything would be fine. The problem with waiting until 1 year, he has the potential to impregnant another dog if he could run because he sees (or smells) a female. There are MANY dogs that are even fixed earlier then that - most rescues and some breeders will have it done at very young ages, and the dogs don't have stunted growth or anything like that.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
I mentioned getting him fixed and she fliped out she was like if you get a Rott fixed he is worthless
Worthless? In what way? Is she saying he would be worth something intact? I bet if you asked this woman what she meant, she couldn't even tell you since she was just parroting outdated and ignorant myth.

Sorry, but technically speaking EVERY stray dog of unknown background is worthless, no matter if he has 5 testicles.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyRescue
Sorry, but technically speaking EVERY stray dog of unknown background is worthless, no matter if he has 5 testicles.
LOL! You crack me up! Picturing the poor pup with 5 testicles Psst, I think it's the testicles that are worthless.
Spaying and neutering are the way to go Princesss04, but YOU already knew that, too bad the uneducated lady at the vet's office doesn't get it...
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 02:03 PM
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Docking

According to the announcers at the Westminister Kennel Club Dog Show, a long time ago, there was a luxury tax on housepets (dogs) in Germany, but not on working dogs. The tails were docked on working dogs to indicate that they were tax exempt. If you look at the breeds for whom the standard included docking this does make sense (and remember the "French" poodle originated in Germany and was a hunting, therefore "working" dog).

My 2 cents for the day
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 06:17 PM
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He would be more aggressive later on if you didn't have him neutured.As for the docking,he doesn't need it done.As it was stated,docking is done at a very early age.About 3 day to be exact.My aunt raised Great Danes.And I tell you,getting hit with the tails left bruises.And yes,they did get a few sores on their tails. ..Now can you imagine docked Danes?I sure can't.LOL.There was someone up the street when I loved in T.O who had a Rottie with a tail.He was a beautiful dog.Also,you have to remember,he's not a pure Rottie.

Here is a pic of a Rottie with the tail.I still think he's a beauty.
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Last edited by mona_b; February 2nd, 2005 at 06:27 PM. Reason: blonde moment...should say neuter not spayed....lol
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 06:23 PM
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I agree with you Mona just a good looking dog
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 10:45 PM
vet tech girl vet tech girl is offline
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!!

Docking is purley done for the owner!

It is of NO value to the dog!!!

It is painful!

DON'T DO IT!!
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 10:55 PM
Karin Karin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vet tech girl
Docking is purley done for the owner!

It is of NO value to the dog!!!

It is painful!

DON'T DO IT!!


I strongely disagree....


Docking needs to be done before the 5th day of life. Afterwards it is an amputation.

Having no value is your opinion, even though it is a wrong one.
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  #26  
Old February 3rd, 2005, 09:44 AM
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Do not flip out dear I am not going to get his tail docked I was just letting everyone know what this lady said at the vet.
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  #27  
Old February 3rd, 2005, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vet tech girl
Docking is purley done for the owner!

It is of NO value to the dog!!!

It is painful!

DON'T DO IT!!
Your opinion is wrong. Is this what you were taught at at vet tech school?

The science shows that 1 of 3 long tailed dogs of traditionally docked breeds suffer serious injury.

Here is some homework for you.
http://www.cdb.org/index.htm
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  #28  
Old February 3rd, 2005, 05:50 PM
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Personally I think unless you are a breeder have your dog fixed. Tucker is a pure bred Border collie and I didn't think twice about having it done to him. Even though my husband and a few friends of mine thought that I should breed him, I said NO. As for docking my parents owned a german shorthaired pointer cross years ago and he wasn't docked and he use to split his tail something awful when the wagging got going, so I don't know if its for cosmetics or to save the dog split tails? Just my two cents, but please fix your dog, its sad how many animals are pts.
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