Collars - to prong or not

[14+kitties]

As a continuation from another thread -

Everyone has to use what they feel is best for their dogs. Quite obviously LMPG has done her research. The collars are on in the proper position on the dogs neck therefore will not do much damage. They are there for a reminder if needed. It takes knowledge and research in order to be able to use them the way they were intended. LMPG has that in spades.
As for making the dog "look" formidable - you obviously haven't seen the collars they make for little Yorkies or poodles with the spikes poking out, etc. Does that make them look formidable too?
I would not think a "collar" per se would be the first thing someone would look at when approaching a dog. It certainly isn't my first thought.
I will bow out now as much as I can and let the people who have dogs that are walked on a regular basis join in.

[mastifflover]

Well put. I have used a prong collar but you are so right there is a proper way to use them that will not harm your dog. Because you can seriously harm your dog if you do not know what you are doing. I went to a trainer to learn how to use it properly. A choke chain is much more likely to harm your dog they in fact are probably one of the worst collars you can use. By the way I would not be deterred by a dog collar. Boo used to wear a big spike collar because do you know how hard it is to find a 30" collar that is just plain not easy. I also would approach LMPG's dogs who are under control than the small dog lunging and barking. Just cuz a pit or staff wears a muzzle it does not make them vicious unfortunately they are victims of ignorance.

[Goldfields]

Aslan wrote

Goldfields,,yes the collars LMPG is using is prong/pinch collars...from what i can see of the collar on your dog it is a choke chain...in all acutality the collar you use can do more damage to your dog than the pinch(which will only tighten to a certain extent).. I use a pinch on one of my dogs,,he doesn't tug,pull etc (now) it's more a reminder to him at this point. In this case it's looks can be deceiving, i have actually put a prong collar on myself and they are more uncomfortable than they are painful and only if they are tightened.

***Any collar will cause damage used badly, but I can assure you Aslan that this dog was very well behaved and not corrected, his neck was quite safe. I used to use a light gold snake chain on him, with a super fine lead and correcting him with that would have worn it out fast or snapped the snake chain , and okay, this is carrying it to extremes, but the correction collar he has on in that photo was actually gold plated. I wouldn't do that for a dog needing correction, gold wears off fast enough just sliding back and forth in normal use. I took it to a place about 100 miles away to be gold plated a couple of times. The theme was gold and green you see, our Aussie colours, gold correction collar/jade green lead with a gold clip, goes beautifuuly with red dogs. Getting back to his collars, you can't do corrections very well with a super fine lead anyway.

That's the world I've lived in, where exhibitors show off how well behaved all the big tough dogs are by using classy gear on their dogs. I don't think those prong/pinch collars have the approval of our Canine Council but am interested enough that I will phone them next week and find out. My sister sees them as positive punishment in obedience terms and would never use them.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

Aslan wrote

Goldfields,,yes the collars LMPG is using is prong/pinch collars...from what i can see of the collar on your dog it is a choke chain...in all acutality the collar you use can do more damage to your dog than the pinch(which will only tighten to a certain extent).. I use a pinch on one of my dogs,,he doesn't tug,pull etc (now) it's more a reminder to him at this point. In this case it's looks can be deceiving, i have actually put a prong collar on myself and they are more uncomfortable than they are painful and only if they are tightened.

***Any collar will cause damage used badly, but I can assure you Aslan that this dog was very well behaved and not corrected, his neck was quite safe. I used to use a light gold snake chain on him, with a super fine lead and correcting him with that would have worn it out fast or snapped the snake chain , and okay, this is carrying it to extremes, but the correction collar he has on in that photo was actually gold plated. I wouldn't do that for a dog needing correction, gold wears off fast enough just sliding back and forth in normal use. I took it to a place about 100 miles away to be gold plated a couple of times. The theme was gold and green you see, our Aussie colours, gold correction collar/jade green lead with a gold clip, goes beautifuuly with red dogs. Getting back to his collars, you can't do corrections very well with a super fine lead anyway.

That's the world I've lived in, where exhibitors show off how well behaved all the big tough dogs are by using classy gear on their dogs. I don't think those prong/pinch collars have the approval of our Canine Council but am interested enough that I will phone them next week and find out. My sister sees them as positive punishment in obedience terms and would never use them.

since you've directed your comment to me i will respond... yes any collar can do damage and i didn't say that you were using yours inappropriately,,the amount of damage is the question..a pinch collar can only tighten to a maybe 3" to 4" difference,,a choke chain can continue tightening to the point of choking the animal to death...the prongs on the pinch are dull not pointy and used properly is no different than any other form of correction.

Since you say you've never used one before i will assume your sister hasn't either..so how can you judge something you've never scene up close or used in practice?

[Goldfields]

Ummm, I don't think we're allowed to use them, but that's one of the questions I will ask the VCA. I know that if they thought they were okay we'd see them around the shows. We aren't allowed to shock our dogs with electronic collars either. and you know those invisible fences, I think they can only be used if they are inside a normal fence. In other words to stop the dog jumping up on it I guess.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

That's the world I've lived in, where exhibitors show off how well behaved all the big tough dogs are by using classy gear on their dogs. I don't think those prong/pinch collars have the approval of our Canine Council but am interested enough that I will phone them next week and find out. My sister sees them as positive punishment in obedience terms and would never use them.

Please do not take this the wrong way but - you are right. That is the world you live in. The majority of us do not live in your world of breeding and showing. Our world involves treating our pets as pets. I would imagine the way we treat our dogs when taking them on a walk is completely different then you would treat your dogs when training for shows.

I would love to learn more about/how you go about training for shows but not in this thread please.

[Goldfields]

Oh come on, 14+. My dogs are long retired from showing, are too old for breeding, and are pets just like yours and everyone else's here! Doesn't mean that because I'm away from the scrutiny of the Canine Council that I feel the need or have a use for a prong collar. A well behaved dog shouldn't need one, in fact it looks far better for the breed if they are seen to behave well in just the same gear people would put on a smaller dog. And by the way, not all my dogs were shown. If I reared them and they didn't make the grade, they still stayed here, as PETS, until they died. You don't , any of you, have a monopoly on owning pets.

[14+kitties]

I'm sorry. I took it from comments you have made that you still showed and bred. I apologize if I was wrong in that. You have mentioned many many times how vicious and strong your cattle dogs are. I just figured you used what you had to to control them. From the picture you showed in the other thread of the choke chain I "assumed" it was recent. So sorry.
Is it possible that not many people in your area, or on the council, have not had the opportunity to work with a prong collar and therefore are assuming it is dangerous? Why not recommend that someone take the time to be properly schooled and trained in the use of the prong. Maybe you will open some eyes as to their usefulness.
In my experience it has always been you use what works best for you in your circumstances. Once a dog has learned to heel and listen to you then it is highly doubtful you will ever have to use any corrective measures. But it's nice to know it's there if you need to. I would rather use a collar that pinches for a quick second or two than something that chokes and continues to choke until the dog responds. JMO

[Golden Girls]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

A well behaved dog shouldn't need one, in fact it looks far better for the breed if they are seen to behave well in just the same gear people would put on a smaller dog

I agree

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

Ummm, I don't think we're allowed to use them, but that's one of the questions I will ask the VCA. I know that if they thought they were okay we'd see them around the shows. We aren't allowed to shock our dogs with electronic collars either. and you know those invisible fences, I think they can only be used if they are inside a normal fence. In other words to stop the dog jumping up on it I guess.

technically you didnt answer what i asked you,,,you are making a judgement on a training tool that you have never seen in practice,,,kinda wondering how..it has nothing to do with whether or not they are allowed at shows..If one peice of equipt worked on all dogs then there would only be that one on the market right,,,,i used the prong on my golden,,,no go,,,scruff is too thick,,,tried the gentle leader harness,,no go,,normal collar,,,etc etc,,i have resorted to a specific head harness that so far is working,,,next stop would be fork out the money for ceasar millans illusion collar,,,i would never resort to using a choke chain on my big guy,,,so if you saw my 100lb fluffy goofy faced golden with a prong on,,would you assume he was aggressive,,or would you see his gentle face and go aaaaaawwwwww...

[Goldfields]

For all I know at this point in time, aslan, it may be against our animal welfare act to use a prong or pinch collar even on a pet. I will ask the VCA seeing they work in with the RSPCA.

14+, my last show was so long ago I can't even recall where it was. LOL. It would be before Dundee was born and he is 7. I couldn't leave him alone at home , not our little special needs boy. You wrote ...

You have mentioned many many times how vicious and strong your cattle dogs are. I just figured you used what you had to to control them.

I wouldn't own a dog that couldn't be controlled easily on a correction chain. Around the rings it is very congested you see. They(meaning my dogs) will not attack anyone else's dogs for no reason, however amongst themselves at home they can get an unbelievable set against each other, the girls especially. One woman had two that hated each other even as 9 week old pups. The only time my red bloke has been aggro at a show was when a friend's Wolfhound intimidated him, towering over him, when he was(I later realised) in pain. He'd just been hip scored and I think they hurt him, as he also sank down to avoid the judge going over him that day. Anyway, he just growled at the Wolfhound. Another thing with the breed though is that they don't forget, so when that same Wolfhound stuck his nose into our tent at another show, and Perkins was loose on the trolley, he did make a lightning fast snap at it before I even knew it was there. Oh, I have owned a pet female that was a bit psycho, LOL, or hyper might be a better word, and she was a forger, but we just obedience trained her to make her easy on the lead and to live with.

[aslan]

The PP Collar is designed to imitate the pressure applied when a dog is correcting or dominating another dog. Dogs instinctively apply pressure to the neck of subordinate dogs in an act of dominance and to correct unwanted behaviour. Mothers correct their pups in the same manner. Just as a dog does not apply enough pressure to penetrate the skin of the subordinate dog, either is the PP Collar designed to act in such a manner. The collar, because of the way it is designed places pressure on the dog�s neck in much the same way a dog places pressure on a subordinate dog. Dogs instinctively understand this form of correction, as they have been using this type of correction for tens of thousands of years. Most carnivorous pack animals use this type of correction on subordinate pack members to maintain control and maintain its position within the pack.

These collars are one of the most humane and natural ways of establishing in the dogs mind that the human owner is higher in the pack, because of this natural instinct inherent in all canines.

the only place in Australia that the PP collar is prohibited is in Victoria as the prime minister seems to think that they are capable of cutting or breaking the skin(which they are not),

[Winston]

I dont agree with this statement at all...sorry!

A well behaved dog shouldn't need one, in fact it looks far better for the breed if they are seen to behave well in just the same gear people would put on a smaller dog.

I have a very well behaved dog BUT he is 115 pounds and strong as an ox...if I didnt use it he could drag me anywhere.....what if something spooked him and he bolted with me attached to a regular collar! been there done that!

IF and WHEN a PRONG collar is used correctly it works very well. For those considering a PRONG collar I would reccomend you try a Martingale collar first unless you have a horse like me!

Just my

[shirley1011]

The trainer we have for both Gunnar & Rocqui recommended the prong collar....they are different dogs as soon as the collar is on...no pulling or misbehaving. Even if Gunnar snaps at one of our own, we put on the prong collar and he changes his tone very quickly even though not put on a lead.......

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

I wouldn't own a dog that couldn't be controlled easily on a correction chain. Around the rings it is very congested you see. They(meaning my dogs) will not attack anyone else's dogs for no reason, however amongst themselves at home they can get an unbelievable set against each other, the girls especially. One woman had two that hated each other even as 9 week old pups. The only time my red bloke has been aggro at a show was when a friend's Wolfhound intimidated him, towering over him, when he was(I later realised) in pain. He'd just been hip scored and I think they hurt him, as he also sank down to avoid the judge going over him that day. Anyway, he just growled at the Wolfhound. Another thing with the breed though is that they don't forget, so when that same Wolfhound stuck his nose into our tent at another show, and Perkins was loose on the trolley, he did make a lightning fast snap at it before I even knew it was there. Oh, I have owned a pet female that was a bit psycho, LOL, or hyper might be a better word, and she was a forger, but we just obedience trained her to make her easy on the lead and to live with.

Now see, it's stories like that that makes me feel like your dogs are nasty and uncontrollable. You have told many stories the same since you joined. I have yet to hear any stories of biting, attacking, or fighting each other from LMPG or others who own and use prong collars. Again - JMO.

[shirley1011]

when you have an extremely hard pulling dog, it is nice to know with the prong collar you can control the dog if they decide to pull. Our dogs are not used to being walked as they have run of 4 acres but when we do have to take them on lead especially Gunnar it is nice to know we can control him and not heading off somewhere we aren't wanting to go.

[marko]

In the best of all worlds you probably wouldn't need a prong collar, but few people live there. If people had enough time, patience and resources we could all train our dogs to perfection...many people unfortunately just don't have or make the time. Kids, work, homework etc. time is precious.

Prong collars are fine for the people that understand how to use them. Personally they are not for me, though I have used one in the past and it worked well. I find I can get most dogs to listen to me and understand that I am leader... but I'm a fairly strong and fit dude and I know a bit about dog behaviour. Not everyone commands the respect of their dogs with absolute authority and some people have dogs that weigh almost as much as them.
For these people, prongs can be a blessing...so long as they get a lesson on how to properly use them.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by marko

behaviour. Not everyone commands the respect of their dogs with absolute authority and some people have dogs that weigh almost as much as them.
For these people, prongs can be a blessing...so long as they get a lesson on how to properly use them.

gotta say i totally disagree with this comment...i have complete control over Qman 99% of the time..but if a strange man approaches him or fireworks are set off or there is a loud bang he becomes skiddish...this has nothing to do with my ability to control my dog,,it is a fear..I would rather have that little reinforcement of a prong than have my arm yanked out of the socket.

[marko]

I have no problem with a prong in this context either...so long as people use it properly it can be a good tool in many contexts imo.

[Luvmypitgirls]

Firstly, let me assure everyone that I am a strong capable pack leader, I rule my pack with the utmost authority. My dogs, respect me and I respect them.
Secondly, if you've never used one, don't judge, and if you are planning on using one please go to a professional handler and learn the proper way to use one.
Also, Goldfields, I may not travel and goldplate my dogs collars, but my dogs are no less worthy than yours. My dogs are not from breeders, they are all rescues, who are still in various stages of training. However, just because they are still in training doesn't mean they are out of control or badly behaved.
I take great pride in my pack, and until the day comes that I feel they are where I want them in their training that is the day I will no longer use the prong, but rest assured after seeing a dog die from a choke, no way in hell would I put one on my dog, but no way would I judge you for doing so, I'm not so pompous and arrogant to suggest to anyone what equipment they should or should not use, because all dogs are different and all handlers are different.

[Luvmypitgirls]

To those of you that came to my defense in the thread where I was basically attacked and called a liar I want to thank you.
To those of you, that prefer to pass judgement, go ahead.
I have always tried to encourage and give good advice on Pets. I have always tried to give support where needed.
I have never passed judgement on anyones dogs by their choice of training or training equipment.
I fully regret posting my river pics now, what was a joyous time with my pack has been turned into something ugly and untrue.
It was bad enough being insulted by my choice of collar but then to see people say prongs are for basically weak pack leaders, or for ppl that don't have time and such...seriously c'mon I'm a stay home mom my dogs are with me constantly and I am always working with them.
This is ridiculous, and I'm really hurt by these comments.
I have spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours working with my dogs and rescues, ....wow whatever....I'm done.
Thanks to all of you that have shared your support and kindness with me, I consider many of you to be friends, and I will be eternally grateful for what I have learned here and the kinship shared.
Dog bless.
Catie...aka LMPG.

[aslan]

LMPG,,, i won't ask you to leave that is your choice,,i do find it unfortunate that one persons comments are capable of chasing a member away. I have enjoyed talking with you and hope you will atleast pop in and pm some of us from time to time,,or you can email me anytime. link is on my profile.

[Luvmypitgirls]

Originally Posted by aslan

LMPG,,, i won't ask you to leave that is your choice,,i do find it unfortunate that one persons comments are capable of chasing a member away. I have enjoyed talking with you and hope you will atleast pop in and pm some of us from time to time,,or you can email me anytime. link is on my profile.

Aslan there are many of you I would love to stay in touch with, I don't want to leave, I'm just so insulted I don't know what else to say.
Maybe I'll just stop posting on the boards and visit with folks in the tjt.
It is unfortunate that one persons comments towards many have changed the feel of this site, I'm not the only one.

[Luvmypitgirls]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

As a continuation from another thread -

Everyone has to use what they feel is best for their dogs. Quite obviously LMPG has done her research. The collars are on in the proper position on the dogs neck therefore will not do much damage. They are there for a reminder if needed. It takes knowledge and research in order to be able to use them the way they were intended. LMPG has that in spades.
As for making the dog "look" formidable - you obviously haven't seen the collars they make for little Yorkies or poodles with the spikes poking out, etc. Does that make them look formidable too?
I would not think a "collar" per se would be the first thing someone would look at when approaching a dog. It certainly isn't my first thought.
I will bow out now as much as I can and let the people who have dogs that are walked on a regular basis join in.

Btw, for many reasons I want you to know you are one of my heros.

[mastifflover]

I am saddened by the fact you would leave you are a valued member of this board. You offer good advice and comfort when needed, if you leave you will be missed by many. I implore you to reconsider because we value your opinions weather we agree or not. You have always been respectful and have remained so through this entire issue.

Back to prong collars I used one when I adopted Boo a Neopoitan Mastiff. He did not have leash manners and had a very high prey drive. The manners were easy the prey drive was another story. If I was not paying attention to everything around me and he saw a squirrel or something he would lunge and I would get pulled where every he was going. Boo was severely underweight when I got him but he grew into a 200 pound dog. Which is significantly more than me. He could have gotten us both killed. With the prong I was the one in control. Maybe he looked mean but I would rather have that then not be in total control. He was a very well behaved dog except the prey drive. Besides people would cross the street before they could even see his collar. Used correctly they are a great aid. Used wrong they can be bad but not as bad as choke chains

[Goldfields]

You know, LMPG, you have said how loveable your pits are, how they'd lick you to death and I am not doubting that, I simply queried the need for the use of a collar like that if they are so pleasant? If you are educating a rescue, fair enough, although here in Victoria I guess they do it without a prong, assuming Aslan did her homework right and they are banned. There again, I don't know if Pits are banned also. Googling for info is so slow if you are on dial up.
14+, you are saying that LMPG's dogs are well behaved because of the prong collar. Mine are well behaved on a correction collar, trained gently, and I explained my collars only to make it clear there are no harsh corrections. I won't be offended because you think they are nasty and aggressive. I don't try to tell you they are everyone's friend. They were bred to guard stockmens' animals and gear, and work rough cattle, and how many breeds have it written into their Standard that "a suspicious glint in the eye is a characteristic of the breed"? They demand respect, but in the Standard it also states that they must be amenable to handling in the ring. In all my years of owning and showing them, not one of mine has tried to bite a judge, or a vet , but in the wrong hands, yes, unfortunately, well, you know what happens. Unlike you, my friend with the Wolfhound understands this breed and apologised for her dog going where it shouldn't, and our boy was good only giving a warning snap at it.
The point I was making is that if people want a breed to be liked, it doesn't do a lot for the image to see them in those big ugly collars.
Aslan, Goldens do fine on a correction collar here , in fact they are great obedience dogs. I doubt if our Premier(of the State, not Prime Minister of the country) would have had much to do with banning the prong collar really. The main reason our State is ahead of others at times in banning things is due to the fact that Hugh Wirth, who was and may still be, head of the RSPCA, resides here and has a lot of public support. He may also have the Premier's support too I guess, and good luck to him if he does.

[Masha]

I wish people would stop trying to convince others that what they personally think is right is the universal best choice. I dont use a prong collar, my parents do. Whats right to one is not right to another.
LMPG, i really dont think you should leave. You are respected by many here. I may not post a lot but i follow a lot of the posts and you always have great info that i value a lot. Dont take it to heart when others cant allow themselves to see that there is no such thing as the 'right answer'. You are knowledgable about the prong, that means that you know what the pros and cons are and you are therefore making the right decision for your specific situation, which is exactly what everyone should do - weigh the pros and cons and make a decision that is best for them.

dont go. we need as many knowledgable members as possible and you are one of them

[Masha]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

You know, LMPG, you have said how loveable your pits are, how they'd lick you to death and I am not doubting that, I simply queried the need for the use of a collar like that if they are so pleasant?

A dog may get a long well with animals and people but may have a high prey drive, or may be scared of something like bikes or cars. That doesn't make a dog 'unpleasent'.

If people see a prong and get scared, thats their own ignorance.

Why should one live their life worrying about what others may think? who cares what others think... ?

[shirley1011]

Masha....very well said and I totally agree!

[Goldfields]

Masha, LMPG originally commented on how people would be impressed seeing her walking 2 or 3 pits and a rottie, all behaving well. I was impressed by that till I had my first glimpse of the prong collar. It doesn't scare me, what a silly idea, but I query whether it scares the dog into obeying? It's a case of love the dogs, hate the collar.