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  #1  
Old March 31st, 2010, 09:28 AM
Oreo03 Oreo03 is offline
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Shih Tzu with bladder stones

Hello,
I have Shih Tzu with what I think is bladder stones. They could be kidney stones. I am not 100% sure how to read the report. It says Canine Calcium Oxalate Urolith. I was wondering if anyone had a suggestion of how to prevent them. We cannot afford the special food the vet sells or the potassium citrate the vet suggested to buy. It also suggests using B6 vitamins which we can afford. Is that as good of alternative to the prescription? Any suggestions would be helpful and very welcomed. We cannot afford another surgery and his quality of life is too good to put him down.

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old March 31st, 2010, 11:36 AM
pugsrule pugsrule is offline
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Have you had an xray or ultrasound to confirm stones? Calcium oxalate stones are only cured by removal by surgery. I am not sure on your post whether you have had the surgery already? Or just the diagnosis?

I dont know what kind of food your vet has recommended, most special foods are more for struvite stones. I will try to help you out here, if you can answer some of these questions.
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  #3  
Old March 31st, 2010, 01:59 PM
Oreo03 Oreo03 is offline
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He has had surgery, but the vet said he is at risk to get them again. I'm not sure what kind of food he recomended. All I know is my mom said it is a prescription dog food from the vet's office that is too expensive for us to buy.
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  #4  
Old March 31st, 2010, 03:44 PM
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Shaykeija Shaykeija is offline
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If you cannot find or afford food and vet care, I would recommend you get this little dog to a rescue. The vet food is expensive and you have to follow the diet strictly or the stones will come back. I don't mean to sound cruel, but this is a little dog you are responsible for it.
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  #5  
Old March 31st, 2010, 04:25 PM
pugsrule pugsrule is offline
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I am still not sure what food your vet is recommending. If it is Hills c/d, or even Royal Canin SO, I wouldn't buy it or even use it if it was free.

I have had 4 bladder surgeries for my pugs in the last few yrs, and all were on these so called special foods. Since I have been home cooking for them and eliminated grains, I have had no troubles.

One of the most important things is to give lots of extra water. I give my pugs 1/3 cup water with a pinch of tuna (anything they like will do) 4 times daily. Of course this does not negate the free choice fresh water at all times.
This increases their water consumption. It is the single most important thing to prevent stones of either type. If you have the resources, use bottled water. Avoid any foods that are high in oxalate, like celery for instance.

5 of my 9 pugs are handicapped, and are more prone to urinary tract problems than most. and now that your dog has had stones, he is in the same boat.

I use chem strips every week to check ph and for infection. they are cheap, you can get 100 for $15 online. Changes in ph, and any WBC or RBC in the urine will show a problem before it gets to the stone stage, and antibiotics etc can clear up an infection quickly.

While I agree that vet bills need to be incorporated into the budget if you have a dog, I have paid about $50,000 last yr alone so I am not trying to get out of vet bills. I just personally have not found these perscription foods to be of any use at all.

If you pm me, I can give you some ideas for ome cooking.

Hope this helps a bit. BTW saying that your dog is now susceptible to stones, does not mean he WILL get them again.
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  #6  
Old March 31st, 2010, 07:16 PM
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Goldfields Goldfields is offline
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Pugsrule, why do you dislike the Hills products so much? My sheltie, Toby, had bladder stones removed over 3 years and is going great on his Hills diet.
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  #7  
Old March 31st, 2010, 07:44 PM
pugsrule pugsrule is offline
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As I say, I followed vets advice because my handicapped pugs are very susceptible to UTIs, which of course can lead to stones. I had all 5 on them, 3 got stones. Vet switched me to Royal Canin SO, one other got stones, and one that had time before, re-ocurred. Can't tell you how much this all cost me. Not the food, not any more expensive than the home cooking, but in the 5 surgeries over 2 yrs, plus follow ups plus ultrasounds etc etc try about $30,000 right there. That is not even the worst of it, Most of these guys are seniors, and pugs are not great at anaesthesia at the best of times. So their very lives were put in danger, for nothing. They are my life!! Letters and inquiries to the companies got no response!

Home cooked for over a yr, now and only one minor UTI. I do everything humanly possible for these rescues. I check their urine at least once a wk, I express bladders 4 times per day, I give UTI free, d-mannose, cranberry extrract, organic ACV if the ph is over 6.5, and NOW organic meat, bottled water, organic veggies, pumpkin, cottage cheese. NOW no trouble. So what would you conclude? BTW I am on 2 very large pug forums, and am an moderator on another health forum, mostly diabetic. And I have very rarely seen a good comment about these foods. I wonder how many vets would recommend them if they were sold at the gorcery store or pet store, instead of by the vet? JMO

I have 4 other pugs, all rescues, but not handicapped, and have never had a UTI or any trouble with any of them in more than 10 years, and they have never had commercial food.
Again JMO
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  #8  
Old April 1st, 2010, 07:06 AM
aslan aslan is offline
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Originally Posted by Goldfields View Post
Pugsrule, why do you dislike the Hills products so much? My sheltie, Toby, had bladder stones removed over 3 years and is going great on his Hills diet.
Goldfields,,Hills is really a poor quality pet food,,high in grains, little nutritional value to your pet. Vets recommend it because they don't get alot of educational training and what info they do get is from the manufacturers of Hills, Science diet, etc. Spend the extra few dollars on a higher quality food like Orijen or Wellness, raw or homecooked is even better for your pupper and the vet bill savings over time will definately re-imburse you for the extra cost of the food.

Guys before we start telling people to re-home their pets, send to rescue( depending on the Op's area) they could be overflowing and you never know a sick pup may not be as easily taken..Shall we find out WHY they can't afford the extra money for crap dog food,,better yet lets give some advice to help like Pugsrule is doing.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 08:32 AM
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Goldfields Goldfields is offline
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Very interesting, pugsrule, I can see I could learn a lot from you about feeding Toby. He might be bored with his Science Diet . Are you sure those dogs didn't have stones though before they were put on the Science Diet?
Aslan, I don't know if those brands of food are available in Australia, I'd need to check. Are they more expensive than the Science Diet?
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Old April 1st, 2010, 09:29 AM
pugsrule pugsrule is offline
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I am absolutely positive that my pugs did not have stones to begin with. they were put on these diets because of UTIs, and they had ultrasounds, all of them, to see why we were having continuing troubles.

If you look at the can carefully, it is 80% water, so if you take 1/5 of the can, and that is what you are paying for. On many of them, corn is the first ingredient! That is a very bad allergen, and if you are having bladder troubles, grains are the very first thing that I would cut out of the diet completely.

There are many good foods, and yes Orijen is one of them, I tried adding that just as a bit of a treat. I needed a treat because my diabetic gets fed at different times, and I have 8 others looking so sorrowful. But I also have one with colitis, and the Orijen was a bit too rich for him. But it is a good food. It si made here in Canada, don't know if you can get it in Australia.

Home cooking is easy and really not expensive. Meat, veggies, rice or cottage cheese, and then supplement calcium, omage 3, vitaminns.
If you are interested, give me a pm and i will send you what I feed. Lots of home diets available on the net.

Hugs Joan

BTW my vet no longer recommends Hills or Royal Canin or MediCal for bladder troubles
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Old April 1st, 2010, 02:48 PM
aslan aslan is offline
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just googled it and yup Orijen is available in Australia.
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  #12  
Old April 1st, 2010, 03:19 PM
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Frenchy Frenchy is offline
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Originally Posted by Goldfields View Post
Aslan, I don't know if those brands of food are available in Australia, I'd need to check. Are they more expensive than the Science Diet?
I think same price as vet food. Or if it is more expensive , sometimes you don't need to feed as much , the quantities are less per meal.

Oreo03 , I think your best bet would be raw diet. Of course before you start , you need to be well informed. It may also be a bit time consuming but , cheaper (if you do it yourself) than the vet food and oh so much better !
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Old April 1st, 2010, 05:42 PM
Oreo03 Oreo03 is offline
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Thank you very much for your replies. I would like to look into home cooking for him or the Orijen. I was just looking into some alternatives because I believe the vet is just trying to get us to buy for the sake of buying and not necessarily for Oreo.

About sending him to a rescue. We actually rescued him. We always rescue our dogs. I would never send him back to that. We are just looking for something a bit less expensive. If it turns out that something inexpensive cannot be found, we will find the money just like we did when he had the surgery.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 06:42 PM
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MyBirdIsEvil MyBirdIsEvil is offline
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Formation of calcium oxalate stones are usually not cured by a change in diet. The veterinary diets especially don't seem to use any rationale behind their formulations, so I'm not sure why they're supposed to work for calcium oxalate.
Some dogs seem genetically prone to developing those stones.

I've read to avoid soy in foods and watch the amount of protein, but then I've also read that studies involving avoiding that don't show a decrease in formation of the stones .
Some people suggest lowering calcium intake in general, but I wouldn't suggest that since the effect would be minimal. There's also research that shows higher calcium intake can sometimes LOWER the incidence of stones, so yeah....

So really I don't know. I'd just feed a high quality diet that's lower in protein, doesn't contain soy (which is bad for either reasons anyway) and make sure the dog gets plenty of water.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 09:02 PM
pugsrule pugsrule is offline
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You are right that there is a genetic predisposition to calcium oxalate. At the same time diets high in oxalates should be avoided if possible. Here is a list of some foods high in oxalate, while this is for humans, some will apply to dogs.

After I had 2 pugs with mixed stones, struvite/ calcium oxalate, I eliminated all the foods on this list. ex celery, yams, whoe wheat etc. this is not a cure, but if your dog already has a history of oxalate troubles, then avoiding these foods is a good thing JMO

What is Oxalate?

Oxalate is an organic acid, primarily found in plants, animals and humans. It is not an essential molecule and is excreted from our body in an unchanged form. Our body either produces oxalate on its own or it converts other molecules like vitamin C to oxalate. External sources like the foods we eat also contribute to the accumulation of oxalate in our body. The oxalate present in the body is excreted in our urine as a waste. Too much of oxalate in our urine, results in a medical condition called as hyperoxaluria, commonly referred to as kidney stones. Diet is looked upon as a preventive measure in addition to medicines to treat kidney stones. Read more on what causes kidney stones.

List of High Oxalate Foods

Totally avoiding foods high in oxalate, would be something next to impossible. However, care has to be taken to keep a check on the consumption of high oxalate foods. The oxalate amount should be restricted to 40 to 50 mg per day. The following list will help you to avoid certain oxalate containing foods.

1. Drinks: Beer, chocolate milk, soy drinks, tangerine juice, juice of almost all berries and fruit cocktail, and hot cocoa contain high oxalate content.
2. Fruits: Rhubarb is considered to have the highest amount of oxalate content. Other fruits that can be avoided are currants, lemon, marmalade, purple grapes, tangerine and berries of all kind.
3. Vegetables: Vegetables with high oxalate content include cucumber, kale, green peppers, celery, eggplant, escarole, beets, chives, okra, parsley, spinach and greens of all kind.
4. Grains: Whole wheat bread, popcorn, wheat bran, oatmeal, white corn and soybean crackers are some of the grains that contain increased level of oxalate.
5. Legumes, Nuts and Seeds: Foods like beans, baked beans, peanut butter, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds can be totally eliminated from your diet, due to their high level of oxalate. Nuts like peanuts, almonds, pecans, cashew and walnuts are also known to be high in oxalate.
6. Condiments: Limit the use of condiments like black pepper, cinnamon and ginger.
7. Starches: Intake of foods such as fruit cake, sweet potatoes and grits can be minimized or if possible, can be totally eliminated from your diet. Read more about diet for kidney diseases.

You can lower your chances of having kidney stones by limiting the intake of these oxalate rich foods. Other precautionary guidelines are:

* A low fat diet
* Reduced intake of vitamin C
* Low oxalate diet
* Drink plenty of water
* Reduce sodium intake
* Supplement your diet with high complex carbohydrates and low proteins
* Eat more potassium rich fruit and vegetables
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