old post on aggression traing

[Prin]

Originally Posted by matt

I think there may be some confusion with "Alpha Roll". The kind of "pinning" etc that is being referenced is not what most professional trainers would define as a alpha roll. The Alpha roll is much more forceful then is being described. This is meant to be domination AGAINST a dogs will and usually done on very strong dogs that are " genetically dominant" or as some would refer to as "RANK DOGS". To Alpha roll a dog like this you need to be a very, very experienced trainer. For example adolescent bouts of dominance that a dog usually grows out of would not be a circumstance for the "ALPHA ROLL". This type of "rank dominance" is usually seen in the large ,naturally protective breeds i.e- common in some working Rott's, Malinois, GSD. Few people can "ALPHA ROLL" a 120lbs dominant Rottie.

I don't think there is any confusion. I think that for the people of this board who have not trained dogs extensively, pinning an aggressive dog should only be done by a trainer. There are less intrusive ways of doing the same thing to a regular house dog-- like the method Safyre was taught. Nobody here is pinning strange, aggressive dogs, so the do-or-die style pinning doesn't really have to be discussed.

By the way, if anybody tries to dominate a totally aggressive dominant dog, I suggest you do other things before the pin because if you do this to a dog you don't know, you will not predict their reaction properly and that could be deadly. I've seen people dominate strangers' dogs at my park and almost get ripped apart.

You have to have a connection with the dog ALREADY established to do it. And you have to be TAUGHT how to do it. You have to test a bit and win in many small ways before you attempt to win in a huge way.

[Safyre]

I had never heard of NILIF ... but it seems rather basic, and what most people are going to do anyways, if they have looked into puppy training.
Thanks for explaining

[twinmommy]

It has worked wonders in my house, we were already doing it after reading "alpha boot camp" a link I got on this site. It's basically the same principles.

[matt]

I still do honestly believe that what is being described in not really a "ALPHA ROLL" but a hybrid version of it. When I speak of a truly dominant dog I'm refering to a dog that has pack dominance issues. All dogs seem to go through their little phases. A "DOMINANT" dog IS NOT the same as a aggressive dog. One has nothing to do with the other. Dogs with rank issues CAN get aggressive to the owner as a test of rank, just like nature intended. A TRULY DOMINANT DOG can be trained to understand it's place BUT it is a ongoing realationship that CANNOT be trained with a ALPHA role. It is the things you reinforce everyday that help keep this IN BALANCE.

As Prin said there are other methods to use. I feel that 98% of the dogs we think of on this board never need to be pinned. Bouts of dominance can be rectified with solid, consistent obedience training which I would always suggest first. Physical pinning is fine but other methods (OB training ) should be used ongoing to establish true leadership.

[Prin]

I think in some situations, pinning a dominant dog is warranted. When I got my husky-lab, she was trained to the core but was still the alpha of her previous home. We were told never to bring her to play with other dogs because she was so aggressive and snappy. I dominated her by pinning her in our house first and then at the park whenever she would snap, she would come and lie down at my feet.

Dominant dogs are not always aggressive, they are only aggressive when tested. They are inclined to win, no matter how aggressive they have to be to do it. Pinning a dog is a test that you have to win. If you are not certain to win, don't do it.

Doing an "alpha-roll" and making a dog lie down on its own and then holding it there are the same thing. They are both dominance by immobilization. The only thing that varies is the human strength involved. Like I said before, if you can't get a dog to lie down for you, you should not be pinning it. That is why I say, make him lie first.

The other thing I have noticed is that when you pin a dominant dog, they stand up as soon as you let go, but if you pin a submissive dog, they don't rise so quickly. (My big Boo actually fell asleep when I was pinning him once...) It's a neat measure. Some dogs put up a fight but when they are dominated, you realize it is just testing, it's not actual dominance, and they get up really slowly.

I think I said this before but I will say it again-- never pin a dog or put a dog in a submissive position around other dogs. The dog has to be submissive to you but it doesn't have to be submissive to the whole world. There can be a very aggressive reaction when you let go if there are other dogs hovering over.