why do correction based training methods have such a bad rep??

[TeriM]

I think there is definately a middle road to both methods. Interestingly I just had this conversation with my trainer about Riley. He has recently starting exhibiting some agressive type behaviors and we were talking about various methods to deal with him. The classes we took with her were all very positive but now Riley is reached a size and age where he seems to think that he can be the boss. Unless I keep him half starved, he won't respect a bribe. He needs to be taught that his behaviour is not acceptable. I am not talking about physical abuse but using my body, the collar and leash are all tools that can enforce a correction and redirect his attention.

Kingdano, an excellent tool I was taught this past weekend is when he got all dominant and snarly toward another dog I walked into the side of him and kept moving that way until he swung his back end around around and faced me with his back to the other dog. He was then rewarded and praised.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by dogcatharmony

If you had to physically correct your dog.....do you feel that you are doing something to hurt your dog??

That's not really the point I'm trying to make . If using leash corrections works for you and your dog, then by all means, I'm no one to judge.

I don't have all perfect dogs either. All three are rescues and I have no real knowledge of their past. I have one who can be extremely anxious and used to pull hard on leash, one who is reactive aggressive, and another who, thankfully, is just a normal dog.

Leash corrections made the first cower and attempt to 'escape,' and increased the level of aggression of the second. I only wish they would have just looked at me and continued on our way. It simply did not work for my dogs. However, desensitization and reconditioning does.

It's just different methods to get the same results. I guess whatever one is comfortable with, and if it's working, then great. But if one finds themselves repeatedly using physical corrections, and it's not addressing nor solving the issues, then yes, that's when I'll say "you've got a problem."

[TeriM]

Good points LP . I do know that when Riley has his reactions then my initial reaction was to yell at him and push him into a down which obviously isn't very effective. He then feeds off my tension and that doesn't help anyone. Once I was shown that technique above (walking sideways into his space until he yields his butt away from his target) I was quite astonished and pleased at how after a few attempts that seemed to take him right down to a much calmer state.

I think it is just important that everyone remembers what works for one dog will not always work for the other . A physical correction can shut down a fear agressive or submissive dog but will have a completely different effect on a confident dog.

I am meeting with a trainer on Saturday this week to watch her class and have her meet Riley and I am very much looking forward to learning some new stuff.

[kigndano]

my dog doesnt have a problem playing with other dogs, i am lucky in that regard.

he just gets SO overexcited that it turns into jumping, lunging back and forth on his leash, and barking, chewing his leash, jumping onto me...its really out of control if i let it escalate.

its awesome that you took so much time and effort to work with your dog by the way, props to you.

i have not ever expected an overnight fix, i mean, hell i used the gl/halti for over a year. that isnt really overnight right?

also LP; what i have been saying since day 1, is that the treats did not work. i tried for several days to get him to acknowledge them, to look at them even. the most he would do would be eat the treat and stay staring at the thing he was fixated on. now what good does that do? what is the message there? "hey cash! good job being a fixated nutjob, heres some food!"

if that isnt the message the dog gets, i dunno, you tell me what you think it is.

now, if i brought out treats and his eyes snapped to mine like they do inside awesome! but they dont, snap to mine, he doesnt even look at the treat when he eats it.

i dont know if you dont believe me or what the deal is, but i didnt get a dog thinking..."oh boy a dog! now i can buy a prong collar! YES!"

i did all my OB with treats, like ive said, i ended every single session on a good note like people told me to. but walking my dog is just a completely different world. trust me, i would not be trying to alpha roll a big dog like a mal for and giggles, its not high on my to-do list to possibly get bitten by my own dog.

[dogcatharmony]

Please don't think I am judging anyone.......there are so many different ways to train your dog and everyone has their opinion. Sometimes opinions get a little heated when it involves hands on training.

I know I have tried a few different methods but with my dog and my situation, she needs to be brought back to focusing on me right then and now. I have been reading Kigndano's threads on training tools they have tried. I haven't wanted to post anything because I remember when I first asked the same advice and got roasted for almost the same thing.

Not all situations are the same, and not all training will work for all dogs. And for those who haven't had their dog show unbelievable bad behavior, be thankful. I have a hard time telling someone using a physical correction is wrong because I have been there and done that.

[kigndano]

i agree 100%

i will try that out next time cash gets fixated...(probly tomorrow AM haha)

so let me make sure i get the idea

the dog snaps his head to something and starts getting tense..i walk into his side?
as in the side next to my leg?

then he looks up at me and i pet him and good boy?


what if when i walk into him he reacts by jumping on me? i have to correct that right?

he does that sometimes...i correct, he disagrees...(what else is new) and then starts jumping, so i correct again.

also great point abotu identifying the energy of your dog!

my dog is extremely confident, he walks very proudly with his head high and tail up. recently in the house i have seen more submissive body language which is so nice to see...head low...tail even with body or hanging loose...nice gentle strolling about the house...so nice!

when we get outside hes still very alert/dominant. i dont mind the alertness...but it leads into what i described above. (hissy fits)

i do not have a fearful dog in ANY way...except for stairs....and shiny floors...

the stairs i dont get, he is good at some, not at others...

shiny floors he used to slip on as a pup, but i am making an effort to work on his "come" when i am in the kitchen so he has to wlak on it to get his treat...things like that.


anyhoo, awesome point re: identifying the state of your dog!

Originally Posted by TeriM

Good points LP . I do know that when Riley has his reactions then my initial reaction was to yell at him and push him into a down which obviously isn't very effective. He then feeds off my tension and that doesn't help anyone. Once I was shown that technique above (walking sideways into his space until he yields his butt away from his target) I was quite astonished and pleased at how after a few attempts that seemed to take him right down to a much calmer state.

I think it is just important that everyone remembers what works for one dog will not always work for the other . A physical correction can shut down a fear agressive or submissive dog but will have a completely different effect on a confident dog.

I am meeting with a trainer on Saturday this week to watch her class and have her meet Riley and I am very much looking forward to learning some new stuff.

[jessi76]

Frankly, I don't feel harsh physical correction is what mother nature intended. I don't have issue with a firm "reminder" flick of the leash, or a firm grasp to the collar to prevent incident, sometimes it's the only responsible thing to do.

I do prefer to live with RESPECT though. I am NOT a pack of wolves. We do not live like a pack of wolves (contrary to popular belief sometimes ). I am fully aware of who and what I am, and so is my dog. But, by the same token, I am aware of WHO and WHAT he is too. It took us a good long time to get to that point. alot of hard work went into building our relationship. Thankfully though, now, no training tools are needed.

Tools are useful, but I believe they should be used as tools, not as forever solutions. They should help you immediately control the situation, so that you can create a more respectful relationship and move forward. I don't think one should assume the dog should learn FROM the tool. The dog should learn from YOU, the tool should only help you temporarily.

Note - I have had the advantage of raising my dog since 8 wks old, hence my training methods (positive only) have been in place the entire time. I understand those of you who have opened your homes and hearts to older rescue dogs with deep behavioral issues already in place. I'm in no way suggesting it's as easy as I say for everyone. But for those of us who have had our dogs since early puppyhood, I do believe correction based training can be avoided.

kigndano... The key to meet & greets, in my own experience, is constant practice. My dog was a nutcase too the first few hundred times we tried this, BUT we kept at it. He fully embarrassed me a few times, he'd jump, hump, and thump his way through a greeting... oy! However, with continued practice, we can now successfully do a "first name, last name" (head sniff, butt sniff) and be on our way. it simply takes time, MANY willing participants, maturity, humility, and encouragement. I'm glad you've found something to help you achieve your training goals, but I'd like someday to read that you no longer need such tools, that you've reached a level of respect and control with your dog.

[kigndano]

what you just said there...

'They should help you immediately control the situation, so that you can create a more respectful relationship and move forward."

That is EXACTLY what the illusion is doing, i can immediately STOP his hissy fits, and continue walking when he is relaxed...instead of before..where i was waiting out his hissy fit, hoping he didnt get loose, not getting through to him at all, and making NO progress. 1 year and no improvement in behaviour!

i also would like to point out, i never said harsh physical correction, i said simply correction (ie leash pop side tap etc)

thanks for the meet and greet advice too.

Originally Posted by jessi76

Frankly, I don't feel harsh physical correction is what mother nature intended. I don't have issue with a firm "reminder" flick of the leash, or a firm grasp to the collar to prevent incident, sometimes it's the only responsible thing to do.

I do prefer to live with RESPECT though. I am NOT a pack of wolves. We do not live like a pack of wolves (contrary to popular belief sometimes ). I am fully aware of who and what I am, and so is my dog. But, by the same token, I am aware of WHO and WHAT he is too. It took us a good long time to get to that point. alot of hard work went into building our relationship. Thankfully though, now, no training tools are needed.

Tools are useful, but I believe they should be used as tools, not as forever solutions. They should help you immediately control the situation, so that you can create a more respectful relationship and move forward. I don't think one should assume the dog should learn FROM the tool. The dog should learn from YOU, the tool should only help you temporarily.

Note - I have had the advantage of raising my dog since 8 wks old, hence my training methods (positive only) have been in place the entire time. I understand those of you who have opened your homes and hearts to older rescue dogs with deep behavioral issues already in place. I'm in no way suggesting it's as easy as I say for everyone. But for those of us who have had our dogs since early puppyhood, I do believe correction based training can be avoided.

kigndano... The key to meet & greets, in my own experience, is constant practice. My dog was a nutcase too the first few hundred times we tried this, BUT we kept at it. He fully embarrassed me a few times, he'd jump, hump, and thump his way through a greeting... oy! However, with continued practice, we can now successfully do a "first name, last name" (head sniff, butt sniff) and be on our way. it simply takes time, MANY willing participants, maturity, humility, and encouragement. I'm glad you've found something to help you achieve your training goals, but I'd like someday to read that you no longer need such tools, that you've reached a level of respect and control with your dog.

[jessi76]

Originally Posted by kigndano

what you just said there...

'They should help you immediately control the situation, so that you can create a more respectful relationship and move forward."

That is EXACTLY what the illusion is doing, i can immediately STOP his hissy fits, and continue walking when he is relaxed...instead of before..where i was waiting out his hissy fit, hoping he didnt get loose, not getting through to him at all, and making NO progress. 1 year and no improvement in behaviour!

do you think in perhaps 3-4 weeks you'll be able to start trying to walk without using the illusion collar? yes, it should help for the immediate, but I think all the while you should be working towards the goal of a flat collar. Have you implemented any other training along with it? for instance, after you stop his hissy fit, do you actively work on a "watch me" command and reward that? (reward can be continuing the walk, not necessarily a food item)

[kigndano]

i have not yet worked on a watch me type of command, right now all my focus is on getting my timing to be 2nd nature so i CAN focus on other things eventually.


being a new dog owner, this is a crash coruse, but i am cramming every walk to learn as much as i can and try to reapply it the next day.

once i feel that every fixation (or close to it) is identified quickly by me, and corrected on time and gets the reaction i want, i will start to associate a command such as "leave it" immediately following the correction.

3-4 weeks might be too soon to take it off...and whats the harm in him wearing it if no corrections are applied?

when theres no correction it just feels like a normal collar anyways..so whats the big deal if i leave it on him and if offers me peace of mind?

Originally Posted by jessi76

do you think in perhaps 3-4 weeks you'll be able to start trying to walk without using the illusion collar? yes, it should help for the immediate, but I think all the while you should be working towards the goal of a flat collar. Have you implemented any other training along with it? for instance, after you stop his hissy fit, do you actively work on a "watch me" command and reward that? (reward can be continuing the walk, not necessarily a food item)

[bendyfoot]

Originally Posted by dogcatharmony

I still use the prong collar for training but I have changed my attitude. At the first sign of unwanted behavior (not already into focusing on what she doesn't like) a correction is given. I know with my dog the first sign is tippy toes with a slight lowering of her head. I don't even bother with the "what ifs", this is the way I am going and this is how I am going and I expect you to follow is my attitude. We now have successfully walked by things that would send her into a frenzy before with nothing. Our biggest challenge is a husky that likes to lunge, and the owner walks him on one of those retractable leashes and then physically assaults the dog because he lunges.

Yeah, keeping calm is sooo important. I always try to imagine that my feelings are being conducted down the leash into her collar and if my anxiety level is high, she'll feel the same way.

Originally Posted by TeriM

I think it is just important that everyone remembers what works for one dog will not always work for the other . A physical correction can shut down a fear agressive or submissive dog but will have a completely different effect on a confident dog.

Totally agree about this. Gracie is confidence incarnate, physical corrections bring her attention back to me. Jaida is a suck-head and naturally looks to humans for leadership. Never used a prong on her, there's no need to. Very mild flat-collar re-direction during obedience training is all that's been needed with her.

Whoever mentioned the benefits of having a puppy vs an adult rescue is bang-on too. Gracie had been returned to the HS twice due to behaviour. We got her when she was about a year old. It was a good year until very basic issues were addressed (aggressive resource guarding, "talking back", dominance towards people...she's the most dominant AND intelligent dog I've ever met)...all those problems are non-existant now. Jaida we've had since 12 weeks old. Very different personality, but also had the benefit of working with her since a young age.

Originally Posted by jessi76

do you think in perhaps 3-4 weeks you'll be able to start trying to walk without using the illusion collar? yes, it should help for the immediate, but I think all the while you should be working towards the goal of a flat collar. Have you implemented any other training along with it? for instance, after you stop his hissy fit, do you actively work on a "watch me" command and reward that? (reward can be continuing the walk, not necessarily a food item)

It's great to work towards the flat collar as a goal (although, yeah, with the illusion I don't really see the big deal about using that). I wanted to brag a litle...kinda ...I took Gracie on a run last night down our road with her flat collar on. We had to pass a house with "the scary dog"...a big black dog that rivals Gracie in dominant body language, and she always barks/growls whenever Kim and I walk or bike by (we're in the country so all the dogs are loose on people's properties). I passed this house deliberately yesterday to use the opportunity to work with Gracie.

It was awesome. As we approached the house, I put her in a heel and kept her attention on me using "watch me". The other dog spotted us, started to freak out. I told Gracie she could break the heel, and let her leash be loose. I calmly carried on with my run and told Gracie she was a good girl. She very politely circled away from the freaking out dog, and didn't make eye contact. Of course, she decided that she had to poop right at that moment, right in front of the house. After she was done, I put her in a down, she complied right away and looked away from the mean dog. When I finished cleaning up, we just jogged off. No incident, no correction needed, and she was very relaxed and simply trusting me to take care of things. We later met up with an ancient mal mix (deaf I'm sure and very scraggly-looking) who always hangs out in the middle of the road. Gracie, on loose leash, politely approached and had a quick sniff, and we were on our way. This NEVER would have been possible without using the prong as an intial training tool, of this I have no doubt, there would have been two dog fights.

[kigndano]

bragging is OK!

its a lot of work to get to that point, and it always feels good to vocalize ANY progress!

great work bendy!

[14+kitties]

IMO it comes down to just one thing.... Do we want the dog to love us or fear us?

[bendyfoot]

thanks kigndano!

There IS life after prong collars, and nutjob-psycho-freakout dogs CAN be trained! Major props have to go to our trainer, Marty, though. The man was a genius. It was a lot of hard work for all of us.

[bendyfoot]

Gracie doesn't fear me...she now respects me and trusts me to take care of her in high-charged situations... she no longer feels or thinks she has to take control or be on the offensive/attack when something's around that poses a challenge to her authority...because she knows I'M the boss and I'll take care of the situation and not let any harm come to her. She is more relaxed, calm, content and displays fewer OCD behaviours (licking, pacing, watching windows, etc.) because she knows her job is to relax and let me handle things. It's all about trust. She's always loved me, but now we have an even stronger relationship. I definitely want my dogs to love me, and would NEVER do anything to betray that love...but neither do I want to be ruled by a dog or allow her to become a prisoner in her own home for fear that her aggression would lead to her being destroyed.

I understand the desire to use positive training methods at all times, I really do, but as I and others have stated, not all training methods work with all dogs...not only that, no single training method can be used to train/discourage all behaviours in a single dog.

And until you've had to deal with that particular dog with those particular behaviours, it's not entirely fair to judge the training methods used. (Obviously I say that with a caveat, I think we all agree that beating or using harsh correction methods is wrong...although I suppose some of us disagree on the definition of "harsh")

If correction-based training works for a particular dog for particular behaviours in a positive way when all other methods have failed, it is worth exploring. I too had people telling me that Gracie would never successfully beat her dog aggression and that we'd never be able to allow her near another canine. We had to find the tools and training methods that worked best for Gracie for each of her training/behaviour issues. We used NILFF for the resource guarding and initial establishment of our relationship (a long, arduous and stressful process, but ultimately successful). We use positive reinforcement (praise, pats) for her obedience work, and she LOVES to work for that, she positively struts and glows when she's working. We used the prong to address her most serious issue, the dog aggression, because nothing, and I mean NOTHING else could distract her from aggressing. Using the prong as a tool, along with positive reinforcement of polite social behaviour, lots of practice, and further reinforcement of our relationship, was what allowed me to bring another dog in our home, what gave her the abillity to enjoy the company of our neighbour's dogs (whom she previously attacked) and what let me go for a nice run with her last night. If we had not explored this option, Gracie (and her people) would be living very isolated existences.

[Lissa]

IMO, correction based methods have a bad rep for 4 reasons:
1. they are often applied incorrectly/used improperly
2. enough research has been done into learning theory and how dogs learn that force is not necessary, let alone desirable
3. corrections are reactive - you have to wait for bad behaviour to happen (self-rewarding) before you issue a correction
4. corrections = force = compliance out of fear/pain/discomfort

Also, I think that many people supporting compulsion training do not understand positive reinforcement or how to apply it. Personally, I find it very hard to support corrections in most scenarios because I know that methods that don't rely on force were not tried or applied correctly.

Our previous dog was trained using old school force based methods - corrections and a choker as a puppy (not by me obviously). Was she well-behaved? Yes. But I never saw her express joy in learning/problem solving the way that clicker trained dogs do. She was robotic in response to her obedience commands - she knew what was expected of her and always complied but there was no spark or desire to please. She complied to avoid corrections not because she wanted to.

Dodger is the complete opposite...he is probably more independent, aloof and harder to motivate than most dogs (I have never met another dog that rivals Dodger's independence)... And yet he has been trained almost entirely with positive methods. Does that mean permissive? Absolutely not. Does that mean I have never issued a correction? Absolutely not. But my kind of correction is removing something that my dog wants (which means that he is in control).

[kigndano]

glad everyone is able to share their POV here.

[Lissa]

Originally Posted by kigndano

glad everyone is able to share their POV here.

Me too!

I also have to add and this is not meant to start an argument, it is just an observation that came up in conversation the other day.

I (and many +R supporters) do not walk around with rewards or clickers 24/7. I can take Dodger anywhere (for a walk, to the store, car ride, vet) - all without "bribes". Whereas most people who use compulsion methods or training tools cannot leave their house without them!
IMO, it seems more limiting to not be able to leave your house without correcting your dog or putting on a training tool than it is to use minimal rewards on a variable reinforcement schedule in the beginning stages of learning.

[MIA]

I think at the end of the day you need to do what works for you and your dog. I have now had the pleasure of working with so many dogs that I can really say that not one thing works. Also the word correction shouldn't be so ugly per say, a correction isn't necessarily a nasty thing, it can be a very simple thing too. I have learned most training methods, studied mostly all but clicker as well attended tons of seminars and at the end of the day you need to find what will be best for your situation. I mostly work with very naughty dogs that will be PTS so I have the challenge of finding what will motivate the dog to come out of it's nasty shell and behave like a good dog, rescue has taught me so much mainly it's taught me, no dog is the same and there is no cookie cutter solutions.

So go with what you like and what you see working for your dog, without abuse of course but don't discredit a method that may work for someone who you haven't met. I remember a lady giving me heck because I had my rescue dobe on a prong well, if I didn't there was no way I could control her, after she dragged me across a park that was that until I could get her trained!!! I handed the lady the leash and said, would you like to rehabilitate her for me? I just got her off death row!!! Remember you don't know what people are going through and what measures they have or need to take.