So upset - I can't do it anymore

[puppy4ever]

Ok first I want to acknowledge that I know I'm might get slammed here for this post. Today is the third incident that my dog has snapped at a child. We have taught my nephew and niece to be nice to our dog and they are very afraid of him so they keep far away from him. My daughter is 11 months and is not yet afraid of him but I never let her get close to him.

I've posted here before about him many times...he's super smart and I've taught him a lot but he has so many issues. He was skittish right from the start. He has always growled and barked at people and never liked strangers...extremely afraid and aggressive at the same time. He's snapped at my neighbor before...and chased kids from the neigborhood when he ran out the door (friends forgetting to watch for him dashing out). He nipped a jogger once when he got off leash. He also bit my vet when he gave him food.

We have taken him to classes and hired a personal trainer (who said he was feral). I have spent several years of my life reading and trying to train him. This is my first dog and I'm really angry that there wasn't a warning from the humane society that something like this could happen. Sadly he also has seizures.

We our talking about finding him a new, more experienced person to live with. We are at the end of our rope...He has destroyed a lot of our things and that hasn't been an issue for us. I think it's sad that people give up so easily on their dogs...BUT I HAVE NOT. I've tried everything that I can think of. He is like my baby and am so upset...I just don't think I could ever forgive myself if he bit and disfigured my nephew/neice or daughter.

I'm not sure why I'm posting here as I know many of you won't understand and will think I'm giving in too easily. Yes I feel awful and guilty...but I have to protect the babies in my life. I am one of those people who DID do my research but it isn't working out.

This is probably one of the saddest days of my life to be considering this. :sad:

[puppy4ever]

I also wanted to add...

If anyone is in Calgary (or area) and is absolutely confident that they could rehabilitate him to the point where he wouldn't be aggressive anymore, we are willing to pay you for your time.

[chico2]

Puppy4ever,I don't think many people would slam you,you seem to have tried every possible venue.
I agree with you Humane Society should have given you more information,especially if they knew he was showing aggression and fearfulness.

It is possible someone with no children would have the time to find a solution for him.
I don't know what kind of dog he is and I don't know much about dogs,but I hope it works out both for you and your pup

[Dingo]

At the risk of being flamed myself, you can't take chances with children. Unless you're willing and able to make some radical changes in the way you manage this dog, I think you would probably be doing the right thing if you were able to find someone willing to take him in. If he did bite someone, especially a child, that might be the end of his life, not to mention that it could destroy your life and who knows how many other people's as well.

In the meantime, you should do a serious search for a new trainer, one with proven experience in working with aggressive dogs, and practice very careful management -- personally, I wouldn't allow a dog with a history of biting to be around any child if he wasn't securely muzzled and leashed.

Good luck.

[pitgrrl]

Originally Posted by Dingo

At the risk of being flamed myself, you can't take chances with children. Unless you're willing and able to make some radical changes in the way you manage this dog, I think you would probably be doing the right thing if you were able to find someone willing to take him in.

I really have to disagree. Though it seems to the OP really has gone to great lengths to try to deal with this problem and is now trying to consider other options, I have a very hard time with the idea of adopting out a dog who is known to be human aggressive.

puppy4ever, has it ever been considered that his aggression might be tied to his seizures? I'm sure you have, but I thought I'd mention it just in case.

You really do have my sympathy, what a terrible position to be in and I'm sure extremely stressful for everyone.

[Dingo]

you can't take chances with children. Unless you're willing and able to make some radical changes in the way you manage this dog, I think you would probably be doing the right thing if you were able to find someone willing to take him in.

I really have to disagree. Though it seems to the OP really has gone to great lengths to try to deal with this problem and is now trying to consider other options, I have a very hard time with the idea of adopting out a dog who is known to be human aggressive.

I'm not sure what part you're disagreeing with. I'm certainly not saying the OP should simply do to someone else what the humane society did to her, ie: foist a very special needs animal off onto someone unsuspecting and unequipped to deal with it. What I'm suggesting is that, if she can find someone with the experience and resources to take in a dog with the very specialized needs of this dog, that may be the right thing for her to do in this situation.

What alternative would you suggest for someone with a dog with a known history of human aggression, who has spent years trying to rehabilitate the animal, and who has young children? -- besides very careful management and seeking specialized professional assistance, which I also suggested.

[14+kitties]

Mmmm, aggression, seizures. I don't think anyone is going to come down on you when you have so very obviously been trying.
Is there a chance you can get him to your vet and have him checked for a brain tumour? As pitgrrl mentioned, it could be tied together.

[puppy4ever]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

Mmmm, aggression, seizures. I don't think anyone is going to come down on you when you have so very obviously been trying.
Is there a chance you can get him to your vet and have him checked for a brain tumour? As pitgrrl mentioned, it could be tied together.

Thank you very much for the suggestion. I took him for a full vet check up after his first seizure...the vet checked everything at that time I believe. I was thinking of trying chiropractic maybe as his seizures come on when he is overly excited and seem neurological...he also seems to get too excited and malfunctions when he is excited.

[14+kitties]

I think another vet visit is in order. Or at least a call to the vet to see if he checked for the possibility of a tumour. It is possible he never thought to check for that.

[pitgrrl]

Have you ever looked at these sites?

http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/basics/basics_index.html

Most often, an animal behaving aggressively or acting strangely has a behavioral problem or some other reason for the change in behavior. If, however, these changes occur as discrete episodes, and the pet also has a generalized seizure, we can be sure that this is a complex focal seizure and treat it accordingly. People with complex focal seizures may experience hallucinations. Some dogs have episodes of fly-biting where they appear to be biting at imaginary flies around their head. Some of these may be complex focal seizures although we cannot tell for sure.

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/

Another interesting association which as been increasing in frequency is the link between thyroid dysfunction and aberrant behavior. Typical clinical signs include unprovoked aggression towards other animals and/or people, sudden onset of a seizure disorder in adulthood, disorientation, moodiness, erratic temperament, periods of hyperactivity, hypo-attentiveness, depression, fearfulness and phobias, anxiety, submissiveness, passivity, compulsiveness, and irritability. After the episodes, a majority of the animals were noted to behave as if they were coming out of a trance- like state and were unaware of their previous behavior.

[puppy4ever]

Thank you everyone for your help and support. I don't think his excitability is related to his seizures or a tumor...but I will ask the vet. I'd be upset if the vet never checked that since the exam was extensive and very expensive. I have looked at those sites and posted there...no one seems to have experience with his type of seizures.

[14+kitties]

The thing is that seizures are caused by so many different factors. My toy poodle has been having them for 13 years, no meds. They are caused by stress and different foods. It is possible he just never checked. Do you still have a printout of his bill? That may show you what he checked for.

[pitgrrl]

One of my dogs had focal seizures a few years back and, like 14+kitties touched on, it was a long road of basically trying to eliminate causes as there isn't, like, one blood test or something that can tell you what the problem is. In the end it was I who discovered what the cause was, not the 3 vets I had working on the problem, so you never know

In anycase, there's nothing to be lost by discussing the possibility of a connection between the two issues with your vet, unless of course the aggression has a very clear, repeated trigger(s) which you've identified, in which case it's probably an entirely seperate thing..

In any case, I really feel for your situation, it's a terrible place to find yourself in.

ETA: Can I ask what type of seizures he suffers from?

[aslan]

puppy4ever, i definately feel for you, you're in a very bad position. My friend had a dog like yours that had seizures, and after each was just a little different. I have owned a dog taken from the humane society and it turned out badly. In both cases the dogs had to be pd. Mine eventually did bite a child and broke the skin. I would not risk re-homing him, as he gave no warning of the attacks. I am really hoping that pitgrrl and 14+ are right and it is medically treatable. Its unfortunate sometimes with rescues that we don't know the dogs background. Our we always suspected there was some inbreeding involved.

from my home and do keep us posted. I for one will support whatever you have to do, for you, your child and the dog.

[14+kitties]

Aslan - I don't know if it's medically treatable. I am just asking if it's been checked. I would hate to see a dog being put down or given back to a shelter to have this happen again IF it can be treated with meds. I am not saying it can be.

[aslan]

hmm i'm wondering if the vet reported the dog biting him. In ontario(don't know about anywhere else) a dog is given 1 bite as a freebe, after that you can be forced to put him down.

I honestly don't know if i could take a dog back to the humane society knowing it had a pension for biting. When i had ours put down, it was the humane society i took him to just to see what they said and they agreed.

Another reason for getting some control over breeding practices.

[puppy4ever]

Sorry I can't even remember what type of seizure it is...it isn't grand mal. Basically he loses control of his back legs and then his front legs. He also foams at the mouth. He is conscious the entire time. We had thought it was from dehydration but that didn't seem to be it...it often happens when he is excited about going somewhere or we have company over (which is always unpleasant for him).

[Dingo]

So p4e, which way are you leaning, if any?

[Luvmypitgirls]

I've had a similar experience when I adopted from the Calgary SPCA.

Anyway I don't know what kind of dog you have and I am in no way an expert, but I do have lots of experience with bully breeds. I don't know what kind of dog you have but if it is a "bully breed" plz pm me, maybe I can help you out, or make references for you.

btw I live in Airdrie.

[coppperbelle]

I have been in the same position as you with one exception, I didn't have young children at home. After much research I was sent an article about aggression and hyothyroism. I had her tested and I also enrolled both of us in obedience classes (for the second time) and within a few months I saw results. She was hypothyroid, a bully and I realized I had been making excuses for her bad behavior and allowing her to get away with things because she was a rescue.
All this to say that I think what you are doing is the right thing. He needs to go to a home without children. Your first responsibility must be to the children in your life.
Make sure that you are honest about his aggression when attempting to place him.
Good luck

[LavenderRott]

Honestly, I would not rehome this dog. If your vet has done a thorough medical evaluation and the dog is healthy, and you have seen behaviourists and trainers and done everything possible to eliminate this behaviour, you need to put this dog down.

I am sorry, but I would never, ever rehome a dog that is willing to bite children. There is no way that I could guarantee that once the dog left my home it would never come into contact with a child. It is my personal experience that, while someone may say they understand that the dog is aggressive toward children, unless they see it first hand they tend to think that you are exaggerating the issue. This often times results in a serious bite to a child.

[puppy4ever]

What do you all mean by a bully breed? I know I have been in denial about him. I just can not put him down...it isn't an option. I'm not going to just unload him on someone either. In fact *if* he did go to someone else it would have to be a friend so we could visit and monitor and pay for meds if necissary..but the truth is that I know to place him with someone would be a huge burden on them in many ways. He is so smart and so amazingly loving with us. But then there is his crazy side.

I'll explain a few incidents and maybe you can help...

#1 jogger running by - our dog gets excited and chases and nips a few times. Jogger is understandably angry and is ready to take him on....dog backs down and whines/whimpers a little and leaves with tail between legs.

#2 EXTREME fear of vets offices. Almost urinating (he has urinated getting groomed). Vet offers treat, dog snaps and bites the food and vets hand quickly.

#3 Food in baby's hand. Sort of snarls and lunges for food out of hand (this was the last one)...the dog looked "wild". These incidents happen so fast they aren't preventable it seems.


Other times he is so sweet with the babies...if anyone has kids they know that kids are magnetically drawn to animals. Baby always tries to crawl to dog...I *always* grab baby and if I can't get there in time warn him baby is coming. He always gives baby a give kiss. He is a sweet dog in some ways...

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by puppy4ever

What do you all mean by a bully breed?

The bully breeds include: American Staffordshire Terriers, Pitbull Terriers, American Bulldogs, Olde English Bulldogge, English Bulldogs


I do hope you can find a solution

[NamaraPets]

As much as we love dogs - a maimed child is not something I think you should risk

If its going to happen it will happen in a flash, and it will be something you and the child will have to live with for the rest of your lives.

I agree with your original post.

[Dingo]

What kind of dog is it? Lots of dogs get the urge to chase joggers and nip at their heels. The other two incidents sound like fear and food aggression.

But I'm a little confused. Sometimes you describe the dog as quite aggressive, yet you also say you allow the dog to be unrestrained in the same room as a baby.

Anyway, you seem to be leaning away from finding a new home for the dog, so it sounds like you need some professional help. You mentioned you were close to Calgary; have you considered that Brad guy from TV?

[Luvmypitgirls]

Could you plz inform us as to what breed we are talking about here?

[underworld]

i personally would be very fearful of having my dog around any children let alone an infant if there were biting issues. It's just an accident waiting to happen.

[Luvmypitgirls]

Originally Posted by Dingo

What kind of dog is it? Lots of dogs get the urge to chase joggers and nip at their heels. The other two incidents sound like fear and food aggression.

But I'm a little confused. Sometimes you describe the dog as quite aggressive, yet you also say you allow the dog to be unrestrained in the same room as a baby.

Anyway, you seem to be leaning away from finding a new home for the dog, so it sounds like you need some professional help. You mentioned you were close to Calgary; have you considered that Brad guy from TV?

Dingo are you referring to the guy from the show "At the End of My Leash"?
Sorry but I wouldn't have him anywhere near my dogs

[puppy4ever]

Originally Posted by Luvmypitgirls

Could you plz inform us as to what breed we are talking about here?

Unknown mix - german shepherd, possibly Australian shepherd in there, corgi was another breed that was suspected to be in the mix.

[Dingo]

Well the German/Australian shepherd could certainly explain nipping at joggers' heels.

And yeah, I was referring to that Brad. I think he's an ******* too, but I've also seen him successfully work with aggressive dogs on his show.

How about Bark Busters? http://www.barkbusters.ca/trainers.html#AB