Bad behavior/Cookie association question...

[Prin]

K, I posted 3 videos here:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=33344
One has me in it, and the two others are just Jemma... But I pretty well just stand there and do the same thing the whole time...

She just gets progressively submissive.. It's like she's walking on eggshells, hoping she gets it right.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Ok, prepare for some criticism (sorry!), lol.

You're still standing right in front of her, pretty much towering over her, looking at her head on. That's a good tactic for a dog that doesn't want to listen and needs to know you mean business, but bad for a dog that is trying hard to please you and happens to be submissive.

Stand so that jemma is closer to your right hip instead of directly in front of you. Even putting standing to the side of her would be a good optin, just anything that keeps you from facing directly toward her and towering over her in a dominant position.

Another thing - the high voice, stop. It's probably alarming to her, it sounds excitable and probably makes her nervous. Use a calm even tone, not firm, not excited, just very calm.

[Prin]

ok... She actually chose the position... That's her cookie eatin' trainin' place... And if I squat, she actually gets worse... So you're saying train her from beside her?

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Yeah, lead her to your side with your hand.
A lot of it is eye contact, but if she's standing to the side of you it's hard to make what she might percieve as aggressive eye contact.

I'll have to look at the videos a little more though, I was about to leave when I posted, so it was kind of rushed.

[tenderfoot]

I never said you were mean!!!!!!!!!!

I love that I get to see what you look like - finally a face to go with the sense of humor. You and your four-leggeds are so cute. It shows how much you adore them and they you. You are a great mom!

Yes, Jemma is submissive in her face, but its not like she is quivering on the ground. This is doable.

Voice is the biggest thing I hear as a potential issue. Your pitch is high and doesn't change much. Dogs are masters of tone and body language. Standing sideways to her can help but I think tone changes are worth trying.

We talk alot about tone. Have a 'directional tone' when you are asking for something. Sit, stay, sleep, etc. It needs to be slightly different from your everyday voice so they can discern it from your regular talking.

Want to really be a dog whisperer? Then WHISPER!!!! for the reward. Whispers have NO tone at all like you don't want to wake the kids in the next room. You can even whisper with a lot of energy and it is very rewarding to them. It will even draw them into your space.

If the dog doesn't comply to your request then you can use a firm (not loud) tone to let them know they didn't make a good choice. Be ready to whisper the second they do make a good choice.

In one of the last videos when you let the dogs out and they barked - you said something like 'don't bark', but your tone was so happy you might as well have said 'good bark!'. Try saying the word 'pizza' in 3 different tones. See how convincing you are. Test this on beau - have him help you with your tones. Oh, and in one of the videos you were giggling - yes it was cute - but it doens't help the dogs to take you seriously.

How vital are the treats? Their focus is very intense and that is great but it seems to be all about the treats. Try doing the same drills without the treats and things might even change with that. Jemma is so focused and ready to give all for the treat - she seems to get almost emotional about it. I would toss the treats and just reward her with your soft whispers, soft touch, and sometimes playful joy. Let her know when she does something well that you are so proud and pleased. Get her moving and on her feet sharing in the joy. It will help to keep training more fun and less pressured.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Yeah I also meant to mention the giggling, but people keep making me leave the computer and actually go places and do things. Bah!

Still trying to watch the rest of the videos.

[Prin]

The thing with my doggies is that I don't have much range in my voice (I know the video says I do, but I really don't... I am getting better though...), so they know the words, not the tone for every day things, like no barking. But that time they were only barking because I riled them up before, trying to get Jemma to howl about squirrels. (I actually have the video proof of me riling them up if you need it.)

I do whisper to Boo, and talk much lower to Boo, but Jemma doesn't take that well. Like in this one, I whisper to Boo:

Some things I can whisper to jemma, but overall, she takes it badly. I'd get a movie of it, but I think they're too full of cookies.

Oh and for the cookies- Boo will work for free, but not Jemma. If she's outside, she will, but not indoors. She's VERY cookie driven. She's the cookie monster and doesn't go much for pets or praise. She's like a cat for pets and praise.

And sorry for the giggling... I only have 30 sec per video, and she spend 28 of it just standing there teetering...

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Oh and I agree with the treats thing, I didn't even think of that, she does seem EXTREMELY focused on treats. Maybe she's trying to appease you as quick as she can (hence the peeing) in order to get the treats sooner.
If she does something wrong it delays the treat which probably makes her frustrated and leads to peeing.

Something I wouldn't even have really thought of since I don't tend to train my dogs with treats. I don't want to rely on food to get them to perform, they know they've done something right by my body posture and stuff.

I usually use firm eye contact to let them know I want them to listen and perform, then release eye contact and relax my body posture to let them know they succeeded.
Dunno if that's the correct way to do it, but it works for me.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Prin, do your dogs know hand signals without any voice command at all? It's a good thing to teach.

She's the cookie monster and doesn't go much for pets or praise. She's like a cat for pets and praise.

You shouldn't really need to pet your dog or talk excitedly to let them know they've done something right.
See my above post. Maybe Tenderfoot can explain it better, but dogs don't need to hear "good girl" or "good boy" to know they've done good.
How does a deaf dog know it's done something right? Definately not by someones voice.

[tenderfoot]

In that video you are whispering the direction, and the whisper should come into play for the reward.

If Jemma will work outside without treats then she will inside too. Basically she is saying "I won't do it unless you have a treat". So no more treats. This is exactly why we like to focus on relationship and not treats. I know you have a great relationship, but even their cute antics can be controling the situation which means you relinquish your leadership.

MBIE - exactly right! A mute person can have a great dog, A deaf dog can have great manners. People rely too much on words sometimes too. I love to try to be as mute as I can to test my other skills and my silent communication with my dogs.

And actually in its purest form you shouldn't need to praise at all. Dogs don't praise each other they simply release pressure and go back to the business at hand - playing, eating, chasing, sleeping.

[Prin]

Yeah, they do know hand signals in general, but Jemma's eyesight's not the best, so sometimes I have to voice it to make it clearer... Boo is great with the hand signals.

Jemma's the type of dog who isn't very receptive to humans unless she needs you (like a cat). I dunno, I've never had a husky before, but it's definitely not a lab thing. It's like Jemma has way more pride when she figures stuff out on her own and doesn't get any attention at all. (Does that make any sense at all?!) Like she's consistently good, and doesn't need correcting and just sort of blends in and likes it that way. The minute you correct her or try to teach her something unnatural, she just doesn't want to do it (where the cookies come in).

I mean this is the girl who taught herself how to swallow pills, and to go into the bath tub and wait when she hasn't had a pill in too long. You know? Like she's so desperate not to be told what to do that she tries to nail it before you teach her.

Ok, now I'm just rambling.

But I will try everything suggested and keep you all (lol or you both ) posted.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Jemma's the type of dog who isn't very receptive to humans unless she needs you (like a cat). I dunno, I've never had a husky before, but it's definitely not a lab thing. It's like Jemma has way more pride when she figures stuff out on her own and doesn't get any attention at all. (Does that make any sense at all?!)

That definately makes sense.
Walnut is really independent (in public anyway) and if we were to pet her and praise her constantly for listening it would be humiliating to her, unlike Royce who is just as happy as can be if someone pets him and talks to him for doing something good.
Dogs with independent personalities (chows would be a good example) need to be dealt with in a more aloof manner than happy go lucky dogs (such as most labs, collies, etc.).

[tenderfoot]

And sometimes when you become a tad more aloof the dog becomes a tad more willing and involved. I have seen it work like magic.

[Prin]

Yeah, but how do you act aloof when you're trying to train a "stupid pet trick"?

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Just like you train sit or any other non "stupid pet trick".
It doesn't matter whether it's a stupid pet trick to you, to her it's just a behavior.

That's why I tend to use hand signals, it makes it easier to teach stuff without using voice, because the dogs understand the hand signals well.

For instance, if my dog comes foward too far I give my stop command (pointer finger in air, palms facing them, arms straight out, slight eye contact).
I back them up by retaining a stiff posture and putting both hands in front of me, arms out straight with my palms facing them and make firm eye contact. Once they're in the correct position I can give the stop signal again and relax my body posture which shows they're in the correct place. I still keep SLIGHT eye contact at this point because they need to know I want their attention on me, but because my body is relaxed they know to stay in place not move away. Slight eye contact would be looking just above their eyes rather than right into them. They can see I'm looking at them but not staring into their eyes.

If I want them to come foward I release eye contact, relax body posture and point my palms towards me while opening and closing my fingers, which is their signal to come closer.

Using firm eye contact and stiff upright body while facing towards your dog is a body signal to move away, whether your dog has been taught that or not.
Relaxed body posture, releasing eye contact (looking towards the spot you want them to move towards), and arms curved (elbow at side, forearm out and hand upturned with palms facing you) and close to your body is a signal for them to move foward whether your dog has been taught that or not.

(sorry if that seems complicated, it would be easier with pictures)

Those are the type of signals you want to master before trying to teach any new tricks. Your dogs understand these type of signals just fine, YOU need to learn to master them so you're not sending mixed signals.

You can choose any hand signal you want to teach your dog, but arms pointing straight out and palms foward is going to signal them to move away, arms closer to body and palms upturned is going to signal to come closer.

If jemma can't see well she should still pick up on it, she doesn't have to see tons of detail to pick up posture and body position.

Just try it.
Start with "back up".
Stand straight up, facing straight ahead. Put both arms out in front of you very straight, palms out (towards dog), look straight into their eyes. Don't smile just keep a plain face. If they do nothing take a step foward, do they back up?
This is how body language works, and if you can get them to back up just by doing this, saying nothing, making no noise, you've made progress already.

I think a problem you may be running into is releasing eye contact before the trick has been completed. Jemma sees you release her but gets no reward for complying which is confusing. Your eyes say release, but your voice and actions tell her she shouldn't have done that.

[Prin]

Hmm... My doggies already know back up and come closer but with different hand gestures... Come is palm up with the fingers moving toward me, and come closer is one finger doing the same. Back up is the same only palm down and fingers moving away from the palm...

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Back up is the same only palm down and fingers moving away from the palm...

That's still similar. Your palms are in a neutral position (not foward or back) and your fingers are signaling to move away by moving towards the dog.

That indicates your eye contact probably is the problem, and I'm not sure that's something I can help much with 'cause it's hard to explain.

Like I said, looking just above your dogs eyes is slight eye contact, neutral.
Looking right in the eye is firm eye contact, that's what you want to do if you want them moving away from you. Giving firm eye contact for just a second can signal that you want their attention also.
Looking at a spot in front of you signals to come closer (assuming you give another signal to do so).

Lets say your dog is pretty far away. Walking away from them and then turning your head around and making firm eye contact for a split second, then releasing and continuing to walk foward signals "follow me".

Maybe the eye contact factor is what you should concentrate on more than body posture (though that needs work too).

But like Tenderfoot said, the treats may be a bigger problem than anything.

[Prin]

So you're saying no eye contact? Because I eye contact a lot.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

What do you mean by you give eye contact a lot? That's fine if it's the correct eye contact.

Are you looking them right in the eye the whole time you're asking for something, even after they've done the trick and as you're giving them the treat? You should be releasing eye contact every time they comply.
Eye contact is the pressure which tells them to perform, releasing eye contact is the release that tells them they've completed the task.

For instance if you chose to give a treat.

Give firm eye contact to get their attention. Release once they've given it to you, and look just above their eye so they know you're still interested in their attention.
Give firm eye contact and ask for the command. Once they do it, release eye contact completely and give a treat if you choose to do so.

I personally don't use treats, I use the release of eye contact as the signal that they've done good.

[Prin]

Well, usually when I'm about to give a treat, I look at the treat so that my fingers don't get bitten off, so does that count? Otherwise, I'm pretty well in human eye contact with them. Like when I have conversations with them, I usually look them in the eye.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Ok, don't look at the treat, then both you and the dog are focused on the treat, lol. She's already too focused on the treat so that's not good.

Hold the treat in your palm instead of in your fingers, then they have to pick it up off your hand instead of grabbing it and biting your fingers. We don't give horses or most other animals treats with our fingers for just that reason, use your palm.

Release eye contact by looking above their eyes not at the treat.

The problem seems to be with overfocus on treats and incorrect eye contact, so that's what I'd work on.

Try putting the treat in your pocket or sitting it on the counter and get them to focus on YOU, the hand signals, eye contact, and the behavior you want them to accomplish. When you hold the treat up the whole time they'll be focused more on that than anything. Then they're focused on the end result being the treat, instead of the end result being the correct behavior.
The whole time they're thinking "gimme treat, gimme treat, gimme treat!", which doesn't teach them to pay attention or complete the task.

Otherwise, I'm pretty well in human eye contact with them. Like when I have conversations with them, I usually look them in the eye.

Human eye contact doesn't consist of staring soemone straight in the eye. If you go around staring into people's eyes it would make them uncomfortable.

Staring into a dog's eyes also makes them uncomfortable.

[Prin]

Hmmm... Honestly, I can't do the palm thing with the treats... I've been bitten in the palm that way.

But yeah, a lot of the time, the treats are still in the jar when the tricks are being performed. This time, for the purposes of the video (to speed up the process) I had them ready...

Yeah, exactly what I meant by human eye contact (sorry, my head's not on straight tonight). I mean, we maintain it longer than them, but still not 100% of the time, you know, because we do get awkward too, and with the ADD, well...

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Maybe put the treats away, there's no reason they shouldn't perform without them. Treats become a crutch after awhile when you know your dogs expect treats. Your dogs aren't going to have hurt feelings if they don't get a treat, they just have to learn the goal isn't to get a treat.

Like I said, it's hard to give advice on eye contact without seeing you in person, but it still sounds like you're using it incorrectly. Timing with eye contact is just like timing with praise or anything else.

Dog does trick, you praise right away.

You don't want to praise with jemma though, you want to give eye contact at the right moment and release as soon as she completes the task.

Main points:
1. Stop making noise. If you must use your voice whisper, ONLY to give the command, not to correct (don't say "no, this way"). Don't laugh or make any other noises.
2. Only use direct eye contact sparingly when you want to get the dogs attention and when you want the dog to move away from you.
3. ALWAYS release eye contact when the task is complete. Focus above the dogs eyes or head as a release NOT on a treat.
4. NO MORE TREATS. Not for doing tricks anyway. I sometimes give my dogs treats when they're not expecting it, for laying there nicely or doing other good things. When they KNOW they're going to get food for doing something it becomes a bribe, not a treat.
5. If the dog doesn't complete the task or doesn't understand what is being asked of it, don't say anything, simply walk away and try again another time. Badgering her, trying to show her the right way, telling her "no", will only get her frustrated. Just remember that it's not THAT important and you can go back to it at a later time. If you ask her once and she doesn't understand it, walk away, try again later, it's not urgent.

Other than that, I dunno what other advice to give. Those seem to be the main problems.

[OntarioGreys]

Well, usually when I'm about to give a treat, I look at the treat so that my fingers don't get bitten off, so does that count? Otherwise, I'm pretty well in human eye contact with them. Like when I have conversations with them, I usually look them in the eye.
__________________

Work on some more training to have her take the treat gently, use a cookie and inorder to have she has to nibble on it while you hold the cookie with your fingers , if she pinches your fingers( I use eh-eh as a correction) or you could even go (oww!) and then say "gentlY" and offer again till gone, it helps to teach them to be calmer with treats

I used to use this method even with food agressive dogs gradually working up to more desirable treats like bones, it helps them to learn to trust me that I am not trying to take their treats but will give it to them fully only when I am ready and only if they stay calm

[Prin]

Yeah, I've been doing that since day 1 with Jemma. I'll even make her drop the cookie and do it again if she's not gentle but manages to grab the cookie somehow. But she's just afraid Boo's going to grab it, even though they know not to eat each other's cookies if they fall on the floor...

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Don't make her drop it after she already has it, that's a good way to make it worse. The point is to not give her the treat unless she takes it nicely. If she somehow grabs the treat out of your hand, making her drop it will only make her want to snarf it faster next time so you or boo can't get it back.(doesn't matter if boo isn't going to take it, she'll still worry about it)

If you want to train her to take it nice I would do it with boo somewhere else, because every time there's 2 dogs and food it's a fight over who can get it faster, it also causes them to concentrate HEAVILY on the treats because they're both focused on it. One dog gets focused, so the other gets focused. One dog becomes even more fixated on the treat to make sure the other dog isn't getting more treats, and then it becomes a cycle and they get to the point where the treat is the ONLY thing they're worried about.

Once they're both trained to take it nicely then it's ok to give them treats together and start teaching them to take a treat nicely while they're both in the room. It's almost impossible to teach dogs to take a treat nice if there's 2 of them and they're not previously trained not to grab.