Dog Rant ~ Case Against the Industry

[Name]

Please note: While I stand behind what I say, it is intended to spark serious discussion. So rather than simply say you agree or disagree, or toss names like cynic, cold, etc - please take the time to really think it over and provide reasons for your stance.

Against:

People domesticated dogs for work and companion reasons - mostly work.
The wolves never asked or needed it - we just did it. And today we have an insane number (ie. severe overpopulation) and kinds of breeds to choose from.

We claim to love dogs, but most originate from puppy mills - very few are prepared to pay the high cost of reputable pure bred breeders - and whether you got/get your dog from a rescue, spca, previous owner, street, friend - most of those came from some form of puppy mill (big or small) where conditions are horrifc and absolutely inhumane. So on the one hand you can tell yourself you are rescuing/saving/helping a dog, but once you know the real story.....More of a dilemna for those with a conscience and pricipled.

Then many people are in love with the IDEA of a dog, rather than the actual nitty gritty of owning and caring for a dog. But dogs aren't goldfish. Do you think a quick outside to relieve themselvelves, then gone all day at work, and then home to relieve again and hang out is enough? Is it proper care? Absolutely not! But some form of this picture is the norm. And then we are surprised when they develop serious behavioural problems. They can't walk on a leash without pulling everywhere and darting at all moving and smelly things. They bark too much. They are aggressive and over-excited with other dogs at the dog run. They turn in circles obsessively. The kinds of behaviours are too many to name here. And if this wasn't cruel enough, they throw up their hands in wonder and declare this dog is impossible and off they go back to spca, rescue, pound, etc; But even if they stick around, is this fair to the dog? Is this humane? Is this right?

What category do you fall into? I see a few that can be a fit for dogs - but even here, it is far too easy to be a bad dog owner. Retired couples or singles who are around during the day and have the time and interest to spend with dog. People who work at home. A stay at home partner - as long as they are on board with the dog idea. That's about it. Short-term situations don't cut it - like university student, unemployed, etc because they may be suitable for a time, but then you could well end up in the category above which isn't fair to the dog.

And even among those who are in a position to properly care for dogs, many are not prepared/willing/interersted/able to take the time train, exercise, groom, feed good food, socialize, dog run, etc;

Now you can say, "well I get home at the end of the end and she is so happy to see me - we hang out and get along and all is well" Thing is, she HAS to be happy to see you - you are the one that feeds and provides water - you take her out to go - she has been alone, bored, and probably anxious all day so of course your return is big news - a lot of it is instinctive also. That doesn't make it ok for you not to care for the dog in a humane way. The fact is, many if not majority of owners and future owners want a dog and feel they have a right to a dog. That it will be happy - or at least happier than at a pound, rescue, or wherever. But they SHOULD NOT GET ONE. It is a selfish and inhumane act - if they fall into the category described here. It ends up supporting the puppy mills generally indirectly (is it better if the dog is once or twice removed from a puppy milll or smaller puppy mill operation?)

Some basic pop psychology. Many people, in all categories listed above, get a dog to replace or fill a gap in their lives. Particularly when one is alone, it's often to be a replacement for a partner, a friend that's always at home for you when you need it, a reason to get outside and exercise (although often doesn't turn out that way) a comfort when you go to bed at night, even someone(thing) to talk to, cry with, etc; They are spoiled, allowed to do what they want, over-fed, treated like people - but often denied essential DOG needs and attention.

Ultimately, the entire business of domesticating, breeding, and owning dogs, is a selfish, self-serving, and inumane act.

Discuss...........

[Melinda]

all I can add/say to that is man....did you get burned at some point. I'm a happy dog owner, my dog is happy, exercised , well , before her surgery and now have to wait 4 months. everything you've said has more or less been discussed to death on this and every other board concerning pets at some point or another. oh, and have a nice day *S*

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Name

Some basic pop psychology. Many people, in all categories listed above, get a dog to replace or fill a gap in their lives. Particularly when one is alone, it's often to be a replacement for a partner, a friend that's always at home for you when you need it, a reason to get outside and exercise (although often doesn't turn out that way) a comfort when you go to bed at night, even someone(thing) to talk to, cry with, etc; They are spoiled, allowed to do what they want, over-fed, treated like people - but often denied essential DOG needs and attention.

Ultimately, the entire business of domesticating, breeding, and owning dogs, is a selfish, self-serving, and inumane act.

Discuss...........

I am with you on most points but certainly not all. Especially in what I quoted.

I am going to rock your boat alittle and say that the damage is done in respect to human's domesticating the dog. It's done, it's now part of society and it is not going to change to erraticate their existance. They are an important part of our culture and society.

As for your last paragraph, I would love to see the statitics to this. Lonely? Gaps in ones life? Comfort? Really? WOW - how desperate our society has become?

This is very 'Peta-ish'. What exactly do you propose to do with the animals in sheters and pounds? Shall we just deny people for wanting an animal and being able to provide a loving life for them...deny them because they work and should not own a dog or CAT? How about Cats? How about rodents, birds, reptiles? WOW we are going to need alot of euthanol or gas to get rid of this nations animals. Just WOW!

[Name]

Like I said, I realise it is extra spicey and did so to generate some real discussion here. To say I've been burned at some point doesn't address any of the points.
And no, I haven't been burned, I'm just very conflicted about the dog industry.
And I don't think it applies to all dog owners obviously - I'm genuinely happy you are doing well with yours - but many if not majority - and also speaking to the principle of the dog industy and ownership in general.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Name

Like I said, I realise it is extra spicey and did so to generate some real discussion here. To say I've been burned at some point doesn't address any of the points.
And no, I haven't been burned, I'm just very conflicted about the dog industry.
And I don't think it applies to all dog owners obviously - I'm genuinely happy you are doing well with yours - but many if not majority - and also speaking to the principle of the dog industy and ownership in general.

Where are your stats? Who do you volunteer for? What are you personally doing to help out the over population? Who are you exactly? What is your point and how do you propose to 'fix' it?

[Name]

Ben Max:
I realise there's no easy answer once there are all of these dogs out there and being bred. But the principle of it doesn't change.
Dare I say, reminds me of the Iraq war - admin says hey we admit it was wrong, but now that we're here, those darn Iraqis need us to stay and bring them democracy right.
As for stats, I have none, just some observations and common sense on the motivation behind pet ownership.
Keep in mind, we wouldn't be in this situation if we had cracked down a long time ago on breeding. At some point, things call for drastic measures.
Dare I say, like the US deficit, it will never be popular or advised for the admin in power to crack down on the super dire sitcho that is the US economy - and it will never be easy for the people when it happens - but does that mean ti should be allowed to continue as is?

[Love4himies]

I like BenMax do agree with most points, some owners are NOT good owners because their poor dogs are left alone for 12-14 hours a day, or they are not properly exercised or stimulated. And the puppymill thing, couldn't agree with more.

But that last line: Ultimately, the entire business of domesticating, breeding, and owning dogs, is a selfish, self-serving, and inumane act. I have to so disagree with. There are thousands and thousands of very happy dogs who IMHO lead a better life than most humans on this earth. They are well taken care of and loved. They don't have to scrounge for food, they are vetted when they are sick and they receive (and give) unconditional love. Who could ask for a better life?

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Name

Ben Max:
I realise there's no easy answer once there are all of these dogs out there and being bred. But the principle of it doesn't change.
Dare I say, reminds me of the Iraq war - admin says hey we admit it was wrong, but now that we're here, those darn Iraqis need us to stay and bring them democracy right.
As for stats, I have none, just some observations and common sense on the motivation behind pet ownership.
Keep in mind, we wouldn't be in this situation if we had cracked down a long time ago on breeding. At some point, things call for drastic measures.
Dare I say, like the US deficit, it will never be popular or advised for the admin in power to crack down on the super dire sitcho that is the US economy - and it will never be easy for the people when it happens - but does that mean ti should be allowed to continue as is?

Forget about the other issues outside of the animal thread issue that you just opened.
Ok no stats but 'observation'. Again - since you are so concerned, what are you personally doing about it?

[Name]

Ben Max:
Do I have to be someone or reference stats for the points to come across? I am a conflicted foster if that helps.
And how to fix it, well.....it's very tricky isn't it. Ideally, all new owners should have the awareness and self-discipline not to buy or adopt a dog if their situation isn't going to be good for the dog.

[Name]

Love4himies:
Absolutely, that was one of the extra spicey comments to get people here talking. It doesn't apply to all by any means.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Name

Ben Max:
Do I have to be someone or reference stats for the points to come across? I am a conflicted foster if that helps.
And how to fix it, well.....it's very tricky isn't it. Ideally, all new owners should have the awareness and self-discipline not to buy or adopt a dog if their situation isn't going to be good for the dog.

You do not have to be anyone except to make comments like this, you SHOULD be someone that is working on how to fix the issues that have you 'conflicted'.

How are you a conflicted foster? Are you not getting something positive out of the experience? Do you feel that your efforts are futile?

[Name]

BenMax:
You ask what am I personally doing about it.
Well, like I said I am a conflicted foster.
I am an activist of sorts against the industry.
But I am an animal and dog lover as well.
It is VERY hard for me because I want to help somehow but I don't want to contribute to the system that created the enormous need for help in the first place.

[Shaykeija]

Sigh...I hope the stick being used to stir the pot is a little one.....

[Name]

Shaykeija:
Meaning?

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Name

Shaykeija:
Meaning?

I think she means that you are on a forum full of animal rescuers, animal welfare enthuasists, shelter workers, animal control officers, police officer, animal activists, citizens that are doing their upmost to help animals in need and animal loving citizens.

[Shaykeija]

That this thread more than likely will be closed. This is a subject that may upset a lot of people. Just a little bit too spicy for some.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Shaykeija

That this thread more than likely will be closed. This is a subject that may upset a lot of people. Just a little bit too spicy for some.

There are some good points to what is written. Not too spicey but controversial.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by Shaykeija

That this thread more than likely will be closed. This is a subject that may upset a lot of people. Just a little bit too spicy for some.

I was thinking the same thing.

Name: BenMax is a person who has given up most of her life in rescuing dogs and cats. You are conversing with somebody who is not only extremely smart, but is a person of action to get something done/changed, she is not just words.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Name

BenMax:
You ask what am I personally doing about it.
Well, like I said I am a conflicted foster.
I am an activist of sorts against the industry.
But I am an animal and dog lover as well.
It is VERY hard for me because I want to help somehow but I don't want to contribute to the system that created the enormous need for help in the first place.

An "activist against the industry"...well it is a multi billion dollar one (the industry) and it is going to take more than a handful of activists to change anything at all. There is already animal activists that have exposed the puppymill industry. There are boards of committees already in place to govern...very little action there unfortunately again due to the government being 'in charge' of this industry (I am talking about Canada only). There are people trying to change the animal abuse laws (again with very little progress..why? Because people complain but do not put pen to paper).

If you are fostering, then you are helping. This dog you are fostering would otherwise be in a freezer had you not reached out. You are doing something very important for that one dog. And hopefully you will continue to 're-cycle' because in essense that is what you are doing...as I do.

This is a big topic and a monster you just took on. You need to find a balance on how far you want to take it and what is feasible. Like I said, this is a monster of a journey, and self reflection on what you can do and what you cannot...alone.

[Loki Love]

Originally Posted by Name

Ideally, all new owners should have the awareness and self-discipline not to buy or adopt a dog if their situation isn't going to be good for the dog.

What qualifies as 'good for the dog'? Unfortunately, this is subjective and you will never have everyone agree on this. Does good for a dog mean the prospective owners are home all day with that dog and yet never take it outside to play or interact in any other way? Or does good for a dog mean the owners work 9-5, leaving the dog alone but come home at night to spend 2-3 hours playing, interacting with the dog?

There's no easy answer, and you certainly will never come to a consensus.

[Name]

Sheykija:
Oh I see. So more of a warning that if a fellow dog lover and helper raises some hard topics, it will be taken off because it's...? Upsetting? Totally defeats the purpose of discussion don't you think.

[Name]

Ben Max:
Yes it is a monster of a journey.
Please remember, I am also speaking from a philosophical & ethical pov.
It can be more than only action or non-action - although it must be action as well.
It's ok to be conflicted, unsure, upset, angry, etc;
This is the reality of the situation.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Name

Ben Max:
Yes it is a monster of a journey.
Please remember, I am also speaking from a philosophical & ethical pov.
It can be more than only action or non-action - although it must be action as well.
It's ok to be conflicted, unsure, upset, angry, etc;
This is the reality of the situation.

Indeed and this subject or these conflicts that you are having internally can put you over the edge. I suggest you take on something that you can handle. Generate dialogue with those you know or acquaintances. Do your own consensus and see what you come up with. You will be shocked.

[Name]

Loki Love:
I agree. What's good for the dog is not entirely clear or clear cut. But...we can maybe try to arrive at some general consensus:
For example, if it's clearly better for the owner than the dog - in the sense that the owner is happy because the dog serves a function for them, but the owner isn't doing his/her part for the dog's well being? We can always say well it's not good, but being put down is far worse - well that's a slippery slope also - it can allow us to feel better when a dog is clearly not in a good situation - and one we would never ever give for our own dog - because we tell ourselves they could be in a pound or put down - or an even worse owner. Doesn't really change in the end what we as dog lovers/owners know to be the proper way to care for dogs.

[Name]

BenMax:
Some projecting here perhaps?
It's both an internal and a collective conflict, and it's by no means going to put me over the edge.
And suggesting I take on something I can handle?? Really??
Wow, already 2 members would like the thread to go, and it's been what, 25 minutes?
Forums are not about fluffy only. If they are fair and honest and open, they cover a whole range of subjects - some light and others heavy.

[marko]

As always when threads are civil they stay open.

I encourage people not to post if they cannot be civil.

This is indeed a spicy thread and it's a point I have thought of many times myself whether owning a pet is truly ethical.

My take on it, is that human beings are flawed and we are at the top of the food chain with (likely) the most developed brains. We therefore rightly or wrongly use/abuse the planet and its resources to our benefit...

I can say this though, rescuing a pet given the current state of affairs is very ethical and is a beautiful gesture.

[Name]

marko:
Couldn't agree more. Civil is the key.

[Loki Love]

Originally Posted by Name

Loki Love:
I agree. What's good for the dog is not entirely clear or clear cut. But...we can maybe try to arrive at some general consensus:
For example, if it's clearly better for the owner than the dog - in the sense that the owner is happy because the dog serves a function for them, but the owner isn't doing his/her part for the dog's well being? We can always say well it's not good, but being put down is far worse - well that's a slippery slope also - it can allow us to feel better when a dog is clearly not in a good situation - and one we would never ever give for our own dog - because we tell ourselves they could be in a pound or put down - or an even worse owner. Doesn't really change in the end what we as dog lovers/owners know to be the proper way to care for dogs.

I understand what you're saying, but it's still all subjective. What does it mean that an owner isn't doing his/her part? For some, feeding is enough and would be 'doing their part'. For others, a 1/2 hr walk per day is enough, while for others maybe they think dogs need 1-2 hours of exercise daily.

Proper care, again, is subjective. I may think I'm doing the best for Loki, but chances are I could talk to people and they would think I could be doing more. Does that make me a bad dog owner? I don't think so - but it proves how vastly different the opinions are on this.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Name

BenMax:
Some projecting here perhaps?
It's both an internal and a collective conflict, and it's by no means going to put me over the edge.
And suggesting I take on something I can handle?? Really??
Wow, already 2 members would like the thread to go, and it's been what, 25 minutes?
Forums are not about fluffy only. If they are fair and honest and open, they cover a whole range of subjects - some light and others heavy.

So sorry that you are very sensitive to suggestion. I meant no ill feelings.
Take advice from Marko as to being civil please. Thank you.

[marko]

Name: Although you are welcome here, you are a newbie that started a hot thread on post 1, please be respectful of our community and tread more lightly.

Please DO NOT respond to this comment but feel free to contact me by PM.

let's move the thread along civilly.

Thx -
Marko
ADMIN