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  #31  
Old April 15th, 2011, 12:00 PM
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Frenchy, I agree with you that some breeds have stronger instincts/traits than others but, that doesn't negate the fact that all dogs, as a species, are predators. If we choose to ignore that, then we open the door for all sorts of accidents waiting to happen.

In the case of this article, I really don't believe the issue is dog-dog aggression but rather that of high prey drive in a dog that wasn't under the handler's full control . I'd be curious to know if this particular dog has killed other small animals in the past.
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  #32  
Old April 15th, 2011, 12:01 PM
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they called for the destroying of the dog and yes, she could have it rehomed but it would always be catagorized as "dangerous" so she is opting to have it euthanized
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  #33  
Old April 15th, 2011, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
the dads owner wasn't walking the 3 dogs (two were pits) a woman was
I know. But the dog was staying at the dads when the attack happened. Probably the woman he trusted to take the dogs out should not have taken them. But we weren't there so we really can't surmise what happened.

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all the time so I know what I'm thinking/saying is the truth, I detest being corrected, ok, not detest exactly, but I like to think I'm part of the truth and not the rumour mill, know what I mean?
Me too. Not a thing wrong with it! It's called getting your facts straight, your ducks all in a row................
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  #34  
Old April 15th, 2011, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
they called for the destroying of the dog and yes, she could have it rehomed but it would always be catagorized as "dangerous" so she is opting to have it euthanized
If the dog had killed someone's pet rabbit, I'm wondering if it still would have been labled dangerous? Would the owner still opt to have it euthanized?
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  #35  
Old April 15th, 2011, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
If the dog had killed someone's pet rabbit, I'm wondering if it still would have been labled dangerous? Would the owner still opt to have it euthanized?
Probably not LP.

I really believe that a lot and/or few larger dogs see small dogs in a different light until they realize that they are dogs.
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  #36  
Old April 15th, 2011, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
If the dog had killed someone's pet rabbit, I'm wondering if it still would have been labled dangerous? Would the owner still opt to have it euthanized?
I agree 110% . It would have been looked at doing "what is natural for a dog to do". My if cats were considered dangerous for mousing , there would be a lot more euthanized.
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  #37  
Old April 15th, 2011, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris21711 View Post
I really believe that a lot and/or few larger dogs see small dogs in a different light until they realize that they are dogs.
An interesting article on Predatory Drift, as it's called: http://blogs.dogtime.com/go-dog-trai...redatory-drift
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  #38  
Old April 15th, 2011, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sugarcatmom View Post
An interesting article on Predatory Drift, as it's called: http://blogs.dogtime.com/go-dog-trai...redatory-drift
What an interesting read. Here is the text from the link:


Predatory Drift is a sudden, and drastic change in a dog's demeanor that is characterized by behaviors associated with hunting small prey.
The term is most often used to describe a medium to large dog who has suddenly and uncharacteristically targeted a smaller dog as prey (dinner).
Predatory Drift is NOT Aggression, but it can mean injury or death for small dogs.



Predatory Drift happens when the larger dog's instinct to hunt are triggered.
These instincts can be triggered when play escalates or gets too much like the real thing (an out of control chase game). It can happen when a small dog gets scared or injured and squeals or wriggles in a way that makes them look like prey (dinner), Predatory Drift can happen just because thesize difference says, "You are comparatively bite-sized, or move like something that is bite-sized, and I am a canine predator."

The most alarming fact about Predatory Drift is that it can happen even with well-behaved, well-socialized, playful dogs who play well and often with no aggression, and no fights.
Dogs who are triggered into predatory drift, may or may not have ever been in a dog fight, and may or may not be generally well-behaved and obedient. There is NO protection against predatory drift. It is not a good dog/bad dog problem.
Predatory Drift is not about how brave, strong, feisty, or fearless the small dog acts. Predatory Drift is not about how well your medium or large, or extra large dog plays, listens to you, or how many times they have met, played with or been around a small dog.
Predatory Drift can even happen between two dogs that know each other well and have lived, played, and or known each other for years. In the right situation, a sudden shift happens and the predatory sequence (like dominoes falling) is triggered and completed with lightening fast speed.
While it is not a problem seen every day, all it takes is the slightest trigger -an injury, a fight, a response to something startling or scary. Predatory Drift is a SIZE MATTER! It usually involves a grab and shake, which instantly breaks the small dog's neck. There is no time to react. This in not a fight, it does not escalate. There is a trigger and then it is over.
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  #39  
Old April 15th, 2011, 01:00 PM
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Thank you for sharing that, SCM. If anyone else is interested, Jean Donaldson also has a DVD further explaining this topic. Predation In Family Dogs - Predation, Predatory Drift, and Preparedness http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB888 While I find the DVD doesn't give much info in terms of dealing with predation, it does give lots of information on how/why it occurs. Brenda Aloff, in her book, Aggression In Dogs - Practical Management, Prevention & Behavior Modification also explains what she terms as predatory aggression.
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  #40  
Old April 15th, 2011, 01:22 PM
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I was reading some comments after the CTV Ottawa article that Melinda posted and it really pisses me off that people are comparing a rapists and murderers to a dog that attacked another dog . How can you compare a human that can think logically and a dog who doesn't have the mentality to reason as humans and acts on instinct .

Geesh people are so dumb
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  #41  
Old April 15th, 2011, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
Frenchy, I agree with you that some breeds have stronger instincts/traits than others but, that doesn't negate the fact that all dogs, as a species, are predators. If we choose to ignore that, then we open the door for all sorts of accidents waiting to happen.
But this thread is about a Pitbull , I was just being on topic.
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  #42  
Old April 15th, 2011, 02:24 PM
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"Lucky didn't even realize that this was another dog at first. He just acted instinctually. Perhaps the same could be said of the dog in the article."

Without more info it's hard to say (what sort of training had this dog received and under what circumstances tops the list) but I'm inclined to agree.

A dog with a high prey-drive that was undersocialized to small breeds would react too quickly to distinguish them as 'dog,' their only reaction would be to movement patterns. Unfortunately, many little dogs have fast, jerky movements just like other small prey animals, and many toy breeds have been bread with fur that greatly obscures their features and body shape. The fact that the dog offered no warning signs of any type of aggression - then or previously - suggests to me that this was prey-drive and not dog-dog aggression. Signs of aggression would denote communication between the two dogs. In this case there were none, suggesting either a very shutdown dog or a dog who saw the other as prey.

One of our dogs is a chihuahua-dachshund and I am constantly surprised by how blatantly some large breed dogs ignore his social signals - he is very easy to read because of his short coat and expressive ears. It may be because these dogs are undersocialized, but it may also be that they just do not see him as another dog (at least not right away) and this makes him very nervous.

Edit:
I totally glossed over the link to the article on predatory drift, very interesting
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  #43  
Old April 15th, 2011, 05:57 PM
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Sorry to say..but if that was my little one that was killed by another dog regardless of the breed..I would want that dog euth'd. Whether or not the dog was going by prey drive, aggresssion or otherwise, this type of incident should not be ignored nor tolerated.

I will not tolerate a dog killer of cats, and I therefore would not tolerate a dog killing dog. Just my .
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  #44  
Old April 15th, 2011, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by millitntanimist View Post

One of our dogs is a chihuahua-dachshund and I am constantly surprised by how blatantly some large breed dogs ignore his social signals - he is very easy to read because of his short coat and expressive ears. It may be because these dogs are undersocialized, but it may also be that they just do not see him as another dog (at least not right away) and this makes him very nervous.
There is nothing that would make a cattle bite you faster than you showing signs of fearing it. Someone may explain this better than I could, why dogs pick up on fear and act on it, I only know that one of mine sailed through quite a few years of being shown without trying to bite a judge who handled her, yet snapped at a guy who'd only minutes previously told me he was scared of other people's cattle dogs. Your little dog's fear is probably very apparent to other dogs.
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  #45  
Old April 15th, 2011, 11:42 PM
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I see what you are saying, but I think they are a little bit different
When a dog becomes aggressive to a person who is afraid of it, it is most often because either the signals being given out by the person are inadvertently threatening (many timid people try to overcompensate) or that the fearful body language they are giving off spooks the dog (fear makes people - or other animals - unpredictable and therefore dangerous).

In the case of our dog the problem seems to stem from other dogs ignoring his "back off" signals - even when they are friendly and are only trying to greet him, albeit improperly. If he were larger, I think they would respect his cues. As it is, they often plow right up to him without observing proper social custom. When he sees a dog coming that is behaving this way, that is what makes him nervous (and rightly so, being just a little guy
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  #46  
Old April 16th, 2011, 11:38 AM
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What a sad story for all involved

I agree with LP. And yes, ALL dogs have the potential to injure or kill. My sister was badly attacked by a Cocker Spaniel when she was a toddler (bit in the face, etc). I was attacked by a Golden that lived up the street from us when I was a pre-teen. They are animals, first and foremost.
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  #47  
Old April 16th, 2011, 06:21 PM
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I would like to see the fines for attacks like this go way up. Some people don't take dog ownership seriously and perhaps a fine of $10,000 would make people think twice about owning a dog or not training a dog responsibly.

If your dog attacks someone or something you should be responsible criminally and civilly.
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  #48  
Old April 17th, 2011, 05:17 PM
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Sad to hear this happen near home

Well im in Ottawa as most of you know,and have been following the media coverage on this incident. For one im super pissed(not surprised) that they mention this as a pitbull. Im not saying it is not a pitbull but they also must know/realize this is a half breed. Yes it is no excuse for the dog or the owners actions/inactions that it is not a purebred. But come on this dog clearly took over most of the labrador as oppose to the stafordshire. Yet the media has PITBULL PITBULL PITBULL all over the place about this dog,not mentioning once that it had another breed in it. One of the most popular household(family) breeds in NORTH AMERICA!!! Cant mention that though,that would be frowned on worse then the BSL-Ban and Pitbulls,and not to mention bring to attention that maybe any dog/animal can be raised/improperly trained to be vicious or attack. Second,im a little ticked off at the family that lost their dog. My heart goes out to them and their loss dont get me wrong.Please understand as well my feelings are just as bad for this irresponsable owner who made my favourite breed look even worse then it has already been made to look. Anyways the family that had this happen refused another dog that was offered to them by a generous family. Now is this not even more of a kick in the pants ?! I do understand it might be hard after what happened,but for the boy to just not have a dog now I dunno. There was no elaborating on why they refused the dog either. Its just left me with a lot of questions unanswered and makes me think if its being done to keep the boy emotional for the trial of the owner to ensure maximum fines are appointed. All in all I wish this didnt have to happen for both parties and my condolences go out to each. This brings me to my third issue. I was walking my dog in a leash only zone at a park/school yesterday. Out of nowhere comes this little mutt yapping like crazy and b-lining for Lola off leash. To make it even worse the dog started going after Lola's neck and bitting her!! This dog was lock jaw on her neck all fours off the ground. Im starting to freak out and lose my "calm assertiveness" I knew I shouldnt let that happen and I started to try to relax as much as possible so Lola wouldnt feel the fear/panic I was and god forbid defend herself.All this I did in a split second which is very very uncommon for me,I have anger problems,specially when someones in the wrong and im in the right. Anyway I screamed and I mean the wholeeeee neighbourhood heard me no doubt in my mind HEYYYYYY ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!! NOOOOOO!!! the dog let go thank god. The lady had a child with her so I had no choice but to keep my cool and inform her of her wrong doing respectfully. I started off by explaining that if my dog had ever defended herself that id be getting my head cut off by you and anyone else around here.That the park was a leashed area at all times and there is no excuses for her dog to be loose. Explained as well that if it was my dog that I had off the leash im sure id have people as well as you harassing me about it,and calling bylaw,or cops and cry wolf that my dog is vicious and a menace to society. I also explained that if my dog ever bit anyone it would have to be destroyed,and this goes for her dog as well(might not happen as fast tho) and that if I ever and I mean ever hear or see your dog off leash or attack another dog or person I will report the incident that happened and pursue it to the full extent of the law possible.Im giving you this one chance cause I love dogs and wouldnt want to have the dog put down because of the lack of the owners knowledge/training. Just because your dog is small and looks cute is not a reason for it to disobey commands or have you disobey any laws and attack my dog. All in all I guess its just another learning experience for me and how biased peoples views are towards dogs and attacking.Another example is me as a kid,I had a border collie attack me in the face,then tear some teeth holes in my butt. Im sketchy around all border collies ever since,I could not be a pack leader to that breed. I have met some very well tempered ones but im always on guard. Anywayss there's my ten cents
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  #49  
Old April 17th, 2011, 05:31 PM
Brandon W Brandon W is offline
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Probably not LP.

I really believe that a lot and/or few larger dogs see small dogs in a different light until they realize that they are dogs.
Chris I think im going to have to say I disagree.We like to agree to disagree it seems. I believe it is all how a dog is taught how to greet. Small dogs mostly toy dogs develope habits due to the owners lack of wanting to give boundaries and limitations because they think the dog is cute or special cause its "little" This causes the dog to have lots of bad social habits with people and other dogs. I.e yapping allll the time and at the smallest sounds,most small dogs can develope separation anxiety,and most are under excersized.Which causes most of the problems. Again alllllll relating to how the owner views the dog and the rules if any they give them.
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  #50  
Old April 19th, 2011, 06:20 PM
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Pit bull kills

Nice, the shih-tzu is killed in an agonizing, terrifying attack, the little boy is traumitized for life because this irresponsible dog walker didn't have the dog muzzled. All could have been avoided if the law had been abided by.
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  #51  
Old April 19th, 2011, 07:44 PM
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he already has another dog, recieved it two days after the attack, a pug mix, 7 months old, its in the second article I posted. he was deciding which of the dozens of dogs/pups offered to them.

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa.../17999781.html
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  #52  
Old April 19th, 2011, 08:25 PM
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he already has another dog, recieved it two days after the attack, a pug mix, 7 months old, its in the second article I posted. he was deciding which of the dozens of dogs/pups offered to them.

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa.../17999781.html
If you read the writing below the picture in the story, it says that the family declined the dog.

"Jesse Lorange, 11, holds Kiki - a seven-month-old Shih Tzu-pug mix offered by Rene Lacasse, back centre, and his daughters, from left, Mikayla, Devyn and Raven Morton, after Jesse's dog was killed by a pitbull Wednesday. The Lorange family declined the offer."
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  #53  
Old April 20th, 2011, 03:50 AM
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my mistake, thank you for pointing that out, my son was sure he saw the boy carrying that dog a couple days after the incident
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  #54  
Old April 21st, 2011, 04:30 PM
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Melinda, an 11 year old can not legally be an owner.
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  #55  
Old April 22nd, 2011, 07:02 AM
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Melinda, an 11 year old can not legally be an owner.
I don't understand what you mean? The ottawa sun headlined "while 11 yr old owner watched"...... I know the parents are the owners of the dog.
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  #56  
Old April 22nd, 2011, 08:29 AM
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Maybe I am just an over the top dog owner or something, however I wonder why people allow their dogs that close to strange dogs in the first place.
When I'm walking my gang together it is VERY easy for them to get worked up off of each other. Meiko has a high prey drive and would be the cause for many o fights with both strange dogs and with in the group of dogs he lives with. For this exact reason I do not get anywhere near strange dogs on our walks.
If we encounter one we just keep on going by as though nothign is there.
First off, I am walking 6 dogs, one extra dog that they don't know will spark a fight no doubt in my mind and if said dog was to come out at my guys and a fight occured and one of them killed it there is no way I would put mine down. This is a different circumstance than the article however, in my scenario I'm talking 6 leashed and one loose.
I understand that cities are far more crowded than town or country walking but I have walked the dogs in all sorts of dog walking fund raising events such as the local Paws for a Cause ect. Some people on those walks with their flexi leads and small dogs running 15feet ahead of them could have caused some chaos in my group had Meiko been there. I dont know if he has predatory drift or what ever, but he views anything small as fair game ( even larger things sometimes) main reason for him to not come to these sort of walks.
Around here he is great, he loves the cats and has never in his life killed anything other than a groundhog once but my point being...
Why do people allow nose to nose contact in the first place?
It doesn't say whos dog went to who's dog and an 11 year old really wouldn't have that judegement. Yet another crappy story with many variables and sadly the "Pitbull" loses with out a doubt yet again. Poor kid too, I mean no matter what the circumstances to this attack were and where the blame really lies, no one especially a kid should ever have to witness that
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  #57  
Old April 22nd, 2011, 08:33 AM
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And another note.
Really, I despise our BSL but if by having a muzzle on my dog reassures people in the area that he is not going to cause them grief even though he wouldn't with out, I have no issue with muzzling him when off our property. I understand people's concerns that the dog can not defend itself and I guess I see it as a small thing to do considering if he was attacked there are 5 other leashes in my hands that would protect him...
I see SO many unmuzzled pibbles it actually makes me angry.
In the 2 neighbouring cities you will see one muzzled to 5 not easily. This whole thing could have been avoided had that dog been wearing its muzzle.
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  #58  
Old April 22nd, 2011, 02:11 PM
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its a rare thing to see a pit muzzled in cornwall, and all I can think of when I see this is "that poor dog, the owner can't love it too much if he/she is not following the rules to keep it safe"
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