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  #31  
Old April 13th, 2005, 07:32 AM
Lizzie Lizzie is offline
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Melissa:

1--A rescue group will NOT place this dog in a home that is unable to provide it with the time and attention it needs as you have suggested. Rescues are extremely thorough and ensure that each home is examined to the nines. Home visits, family interviews, the works. Okay, you want to keep the dog, but don't suggest that a rescue would give it a less good home. A rescue would ensure this dog goes to a home where someone is with him/her all day.

2--How is this dog going to get over his/her anxieties by living in a crate for 8 hours a day? I can't understand for the life of me why you don't see a problem with this but you do see a problem with rehoming the dog through a reputable rescue (like one of the many that frequent this site). Yes, I beleive this dog has gone through a lot, but the longer he lives in a crate, void of human interaction for 8 hours a day, the longer he will endure the struggles that life has thrown at him.

That's all I want to say. Regardless of where he/she lives, I do sincerely hope that everything works out for this pup and that he/she is able to one day lead a normal, happy-go-lucky, doggie life.
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  #32  
Old April 13th, 2005, 10:50 AM
amber416 amber416 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogmelissa
and then likely being ignored more when I'm home?

why in the world would you ignore the dog more when you were home in that scenario??? Maybe i misunderstood but that doesn't make any sense.

Also, I re-read my post to you and it seemed very polite. Was there something you took offense to? Perhaps you are just frusterated with the situation but I didn't appreciate the "Thanks but i need helpful advice" comment. I didn't just post because i was bored. I was trying to be helpful, apparently it wasn't what you wanted to hear--as is often the case with advice-- but it was helpful for the dog. I only have the dog's best interest in mind. I have an aunt who rescued an abused dog. That was ten years ago and he still is not trained. They even brought a dog trainer into their home to help. So don't say the accidents for certainty will stop because abuse is a serious thing and it can leave lasting effects, although i hope for your sake they do.

And i do not neccessarily have any issues with a dog (a dog that has not been abused, that does need consistent work and stablitly throughout the day as well as the evenings) being crated for eight hours a day. However, I for some reason thought your dog was in a crate at night too, because I thought you had mentioned the dog not getting run of the house ever at this point. That becomes 16 hours a day. Sorry if i misunderstood, though.

Anyway, i realize that you are looking for specific advice and that you have opted not to rehome the dog. I respect that, i was just responding to your post. Good luck with this poor guy.
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  #33  
Old April 13th, 2005, 04:19 PM
puppup11 puppup11 is offline
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Would it maybe simplify things a bit if you tried doing one form of "potty training" at a time? Right now, you're trying to get him to go in his litter box during the day, and outside at night. Since you know you won't be home during the day and therefore it's impossible to train him to go outside consistently right now, maybe you should think about just litter box training by itself and move to the outside thing after he gets that down. I don't think there's any way you'll be able to actually get through to him that going in the litter box is acceptable if every time he does it you're not there to praise him, and when he doesn't do it (goes in the house) he gets sent outside. If he can learn to go to his litter box when you're at home, it should be fairly easy for him to remember to go there when you're not rather than soiling his crate. That would solve some of your problems and then you could move to training him for outside later.
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  #34  
Old April 13th, 2005, 11:37 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Thumbs up Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by puppup11
Would it maybe simplify things a bit if you tried doing one form of "potty training" at a time? Right now, you're trying to get him to go in his litter box during the day, and outside at night. Since you know you won't be home during the day and therefore it's impossible to train him to go outside consistently right now, maybe you should think about just litter box training by itself and move to the outside thing after he gets that down. I don't think there's any way you'll be able to actually get through to him that going in the litter box is acceptable if every time he does it you're not there to praise him, and when he doesn't do it (goes in the house) he gets sent outside. If he can learn to go to his litter box when you're at home, it should be fairly easy for him to remember to go there when you're not rather than soiling his crate. That would solve some of your problems and then you could move to training him for outside later.
See now THAT was helpful advice. I hadn't considered that. Ok.... trip to the store is in order to buy another large litter box & some more pellet litter.

That being said... how do I correlate the litter-training (no outdoor training) with times when we're out walking. 'Cause of course he pees & poops while we're out walking, so do I praise him, or do I eliminate walks/outdoor visits until he understands the litter box concept?

Thanks!
Melissa
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  #35  
Old April 13th, 2005, 11:50 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Thumbs down Re-homing is NOT a solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzie
1--A rescue group will NOT place this dog in a home that is unable to provide it with the time and attention it needs as you have suggested. Rescues are extremely thorough and ensure that each home is examined to the nines. Home visits, family interviews, the works. Okay, you want to keep the dog, but don't suggest that a rescue would give it a less good home. A rescue would ensure this dog goes to a home where someone is with him/her all day.
I'm not saying a rescue organization wouldn't be able to find him a good home. What I'm saying is that it would require re-homing the dog TWICE; first into a foster home, then into a permanent home. That, and it doesn't solve the dogs problems, it just transfers them to someone else. I'm asking for help on how to FIX his problems (or at least learn to live with them) not for help on how to transfer them to someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzie
2--How is this dog going to get over his/her anxieties by living in a crate for 8 hours a day? I can't understand for the life of me why you don't see a problem with this but you do see a problem with rehoming the dog through a reputable rescue (like one of the many that frequent this site). Yes, I beleive this dog has gone through a lot, but the longer he lives in a crate, void of human interaction for 8 hours a day, the longer he will endure the struggles that life has thrown at him.
I don't expect that he WILL get over his anxieties simply by living in a crate. I'm saying that by keeping him in a crate, the only anxiety he has to deal with is the one of being left alone; a problem which I am ALSO seeking a solution for, but can't at the moment, spare the time or the money to solve. I've asked my boss, I can't take the dog to work. I've considered working from home, but it's just not possible at this point in my career. I've considered medications in order to de-sensitize him, combined with taking time off work to ease the process (gradually increasing the time he's left alone), but I can't afford medications, and I don't get enough vacation time to get him much past the 3-4 hour mark (assuming that all goes according to plans that have been suggested by many, including my vet), plus then I'd be sacrificing an *actual* vacation, where I would be taking him with me and spending the time WITH him, instead of trying to spend it away from him.

I'm attempting to solve only one problem at a time, and if I can solve the house-training issue, I'll be more likely to allow him to be loose (or at least have greater freedom) in the house than he has right now. Maybe. That would depend on his behaviour and whether or not I could trust him not to irritate the cats, my neighbours, etc. However, I refuse to spend an hour a day searching my house for the locations of where he relieved himself and attempting to remove the smell and stains from my carpet, furniture and/or bed simply because some people think that keeping him in a crate is bad for his separation anxiety.

I appreciate your stance on this, but to me, it's not a solution. There's this wonderful thing called an opinion; you're allowed to have yours and I'm allowed to have mine, and I can choose to take your advice or not. In this case, I choose not to.

Melissa
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  #36  
Old April 14th, 2005, 12:13 AM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Amber,
1. The dog would likely be ignored more in a scenario where he was loose in the house because it would take me a significantly longer amount of time to locate and clean up the messes that he made while I was away. The (very few) days that I tried him loose in the house (even when I was only gone 1/2 hour), it took him a disturbingly large amount of time to settle down once I did get home, compared to what it took him even the first day I put him in the crate and left him for 8 hours. And the only way I've figured out to get him to settle down is to completely ignore him--which is also next to impossible when you have a dog loose in the house who is jumping, barking, nipping at your feet, knocking into your legs while you stand anywhere, climbing (or trying to climb) up on your lap if you sit. In the kennel he barks and gets excited when he hears the door unlock, but by the time I've got my shoes off and got into the room with the kennel, he's quiet. Still physically crazy, but responsive to "sit" and "wait" as he knows that he doesn't get to come out until he is sitting quietly. He only gets ignored for a matter of minutes this way, rather than the 1/2 hour or more it takes when he's loose or even just tied up.

2. I took offense to the fact that I'd responded to 2 other posts stating that re-homing the dog is NOT helping me figure out how to train the dog, it simply passes off the problem to someone else. Sure, someone else may be able to fix him, but I'm trying to save those homes for the dogs who have owners who aren't willing to figure them out. I'm *attempting* to solve this problem, and I'm asking for solutions, not cover-ups. I'm sorry if I seemed harsh, but I was simply stating that your advice is not workable for me. The joy of being a person asking for advice is the option to use or discard any advice given. If one giving advice can't tolerate their advice not being taken, then they shouldn't be giving advice at all.

3. Yes, some abused dogs never get trained. I'm not trying to predict the future. I'd *really* like to get this dog trained, and I'm here trying to find ways to do so. If I can't get him trained, and I exhaust every possible form of training including trainers, behaviourists, medication, etc, then that's fine. At least I'll be able to clean up his messes knowing that I tried everything and that he simply was too traumatized/physically- or mentally harmed by his previous life to have the capacity to learn. However, I refuse to accept that answer without having exhausted all possible solutions. And re-homing the dog does NOT solve his problems. It simply removes them from my life. It's like amputating your arm because your wrist didn't mend after 6 weeks in a cast.

4. The dog is kept in his crate at night, simply because when he's NOT in his kennel, he seems to be incapable of signalling that he needs to go to the bathroom. When he is in the crate, which is kept 6" from my bed, he simply stands up and whines (directly in my ear!) and I get up and put him out. The point I'd like to get to is one in which he is only in the crate during the day--better if I can simply leave the door open and he can choose to be in there or not--and sleep wherever he chooses at night. However, since I don't have the time, or patience, or desire, to search my house top to bottom in search of where he pooped and/or peed every morning before work, he is kept in the crate at night. Given that 95% of the time that he spends in the crate, especially at night, is sleeping, I don't feel that bad about it. And no matter what you say, I guarantee that you can't make me feel guilty about it, because you are not the person who has to find, clean up & ultimately pay (in time, materials and carpet) for the messes that he makes when he's loose in the house. I appreciate your sentiments on this, but until you are living my life, you don't have the perspective to tell me what is a solution. I have to choose things that I think can work, given what I have available, and I just don't have the finances to re-carpet & re-furnish my home as well as pay for professional cleaning services to clean everyday.

Thanks for the good-luck wishes, I can only hope that luck will help us find a solution we can all live with.
Melissa
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  #37  
Old April 14th, 2005, 06:40 AM
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badger badger is offline
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Sorry if someone has already brought this up, but have you tried changing his food (I agree that there should be no food in the crate and regular meal times)? Maybe there is something in what he eats now that is 'overstimulating' his gut - grains, for instance. Just a thought.
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  #38  
Old April 14th, 2005, 06:46 AM
puppup11 puppup11 is offline
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Well, you definitely wouldn't want to correct him for going outside, and not taking him for walks probably wouldn't be a good idea either because he needs his exercise especially being locked up all day. Probably what you want to try to do is get him to go in his litter box as much as you can, so that might mean waiting until he tries to go in the house after you get home so that you can immediately put him in his litter box and then praise him for doing it there, then going for your walk. If he goes outside at this point it might be the least confusing thing to just ignore it. The main thing is just catching him every single time he tries to go in the house so you can correct him to go in his litter box.
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  #39  
Old April 14th, 2005, 06:54 AM
Eleni Eleni is offline
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even one of those puppy pee pads underneath the litter might encourage him to go in the litter, they ahve a scent most dogs take too and decide to go on the pad.

might be worth a try


Eleni
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  #40  
Old April 14th, 2005, 07:22 AM
Lizzie Lizzie is offline
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Please keep in mind that if he uses litter and is trained to go inside your home, he will likely go inside anyone's home.
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  #41  
Old April 14th, 2005, 10:18 AM
adplater adplater is offline
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Litter Training

Here's a great website on how to litter train dogs

http://www.kturby.com/litter/litter.htm

I use the newspaper pellets since it's convenient to pick up.

I secure the litter in the wire kennel (36 x 24) by using plastic vice grips / quick clamps purchased at the dollar store. I clamp 2 sides of the litter box and it seems to be stable. The clamps make it easy to remove and clean the litter as soon as I get home.

For the most part, Rosie will use the litter box during the day when she is in her kennel - she still sometimes pees on her blanket which I am attributing to her being excited when she hears us come home.

I will admit, Rosie is not completely house-trained - we're still working on her "have to go pee" signal. I tried bells at front door, doesn't work, I've also set timers, but life always seems hectic at our house and I forget to re-set the timer to take her back outside at the appointed time.

For some reason, Rosie doesn't associate that when I'm home she can use her litter box, so if she has to go and I'm not understanding the "have to go pee" signal, she will go and hide and pee within the house somewhere. Totally my fault, but I do tell her in a very quiet, disappointed, shaking my head voice that she is a bad dog.

I'm hoping that eventually she become fully house-trained - keeping my fingers crossed - but I feel the exact same way that you do that if she doesn't ever become fully house-trained, it is no reason at all for me to re-home her.

Personally, I think that I alone am responsible for keeping Nature's Miracle in business some days Maybe I should buy shares in the company - they may give shareholders preferred prices!

I wish you nothing but the best of luck - I think you are absolutely a wondeful person to be putting in so much effort into Cube. Don't let the negative comments get you down. Just keep trying and eventually you will persevere. If Cube never does get it? Oh well, the main thing is that you and Cube love each other to bits!!
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  #42  
Old April 14th, 2005, 07:49 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Smile Food allergies

Quote:
Originally Posted by badger
Sorry if someone has already brought this up, but have you tried changing his food (I agree that there should be no food in the crate and regular meal times)? Maybe there is something in what he eats now that is 'overstimulating' his gut - grains, for instance. Just a thought.
Not sure if I mentioned this in the thread, but Cube has an undiagnosed food allergy. As such, he is eating a Venison & Rice food and overall seems to be much better on it than he was when he was on a "regular" food. The last couple of days he's had diarrhea but I think he may have eaten some of the cat's food when I wasn't looking and also that he's stressed because I'm stressed about him.

I have taken away all his food and water during the day for the last 2 days, and today the kennel was mess-free, so perhaps that's a big part of it. Not sure yet. Don't want to assume that fixed the problem yet.

Thanks,
Melissa
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  #43  
Old April 14th, 2005, 07:54 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Confused Cube

Quote:
Originally Posted by puppup11
Well, you definitely wouldn't want to correct him for going outside, and not taking him for walks probably wouldn't be a good idea either because he needs his exercise especially being locked up all day. Probably what you want to try to do is get him to go in his litter box as much as you can, so that might mean waiting until he tries to go in the house after you get home so that you can immediately put him in his litter box and then praise him for doing it there, then going for your walk. If he goes outside at this point it might be the least confusing thing to just ignore it. The main thing is just catching him every single time he tries to go in the house so you can correct him to go in his litter box.
Poor guy, I feel pretty bad for him today. He's so used to being able to go outside and relieve himself the second I come home from work.. and today I refuse to open the door, and he just doesn't understand what this box with pine pieces in it is for. So we're trying to modify this plan a little. I've put the litter box outside where he always goes to the bathroom, and for the next--however long it takes--I'm taking him outside every 5 minutes on a leash and putting him in the box. He can't hold it all night!! I don't want to take him for a walk until he's at least peed in there, so it might be a late walk tonight.
But I'm persistent (I'm more stubborn than a dog's bladder, surely!), and we *will* win this battle tonight. I'm sure he's going to be totally lost as to why I'm throwing him a party for peeing, but I think he'll get it eventually.
As I said in a previous response today; he didn't mess in the kennel at all-so I know he has to go. Won't take too long, I'm sure, as he's also had a drink and some food now, too.

Thanks,
Melissa
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  #44  
Old April 14th, 2005, 07:56 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleni
even one of those puppy pee pads underneath the litter might encourage him to go in the litter, they ahve a scent most dogs take too and decide to go on the pad.
might be worth a try
Eleni
I've got one in there, too, and I'm spraying the box & the litter with the house-training aid I have. So far, no luck, but it'll work eventually, I'm sure. The few times I left him tied up in the kitchen with a puppy pad down, he DID use them, just he destroyed them and dragged the poop all over the place *after*.

Thanks!
Melissa
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  #45  
Old April 14th, 2005, 08:03 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Cool Litter boxes & visiting houses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzie
Please keep in mind that if he uses litter and is trained to go inside your home, he will likely go inside anyone's home.
Wow, I must have touched a nerve with something I wrote, because we both know that this isn't true. I have 3 cats, all of whom are litter trained (surprise surprise there). And when I take them to someone else's house, or they have to stay in a kennel (only 2 of them ever have), I've *never* had any problems with them "going" all over the place. I simply put them in the litter box wherever the person tells me to place it and let them find their way out of it. And that's all it takes with them. I don't see why it would be any different with a dog that's litter trained.

And I'd rather pack along a litter box and know that I can just put it down, show him where it is and then not worry about having to take him out every 10 minutes, than worrying about taking him out, about how his urine is going to damage their flowers or trees and how much of a hassle it is to have to take a bag outside and pick up the poop and then try to find their outside garbage bin... worse even if it's a high-rise that I'm visiting, where I have to carry the dog down 10 flights in the elevator to get him outside. What a pain in the BUTT!
Thanks, but I think I'll stick with the litter-training.
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  #46  
Old April 14th, 2005, 08:09 PM
Lizzie Lizzie is offline
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You never mentioned you were going to take a litter box with you. I was simply pointing out the fact that the dog will need a litter box in other homes. He won't know to use the outdoors at other people's houses.

I have no problem with litter training dogs. I never said I did.
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  #47  
Old April 14th, 2005, 08:14 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Wink Litter training site

Quote:
Originally Posted by adplater
Here's a great website on how to litter train dogs <snip>
I use the newspaper pellets since it's convenient to pick up.
I secure the litter in the wire kennel (36 x 24) by using plastic vice grips / quick clamps purchased at the dollar store. I clamp 2 sides of the litter box and it seems to be stable. The clamps make it easy to remove and clean the litter as soon as I get home.
For the most part, Rosie will use the litter box during the day when she is in her kennel - she still sometimes pees on her blanket which I am attributing to her being excited when she hears us come home.
<snip>
Personally, I think that I alone am responsible for keeping Nature's Miracle in business some days Maybe I should buy shares in the company - they may give shareholders preferred prices!
I wish you nothing but the best of luck - I think you are absolutely a wonderful person to be putting in so much effort into Cube. Don't let the negative comments get you down. Just keep trying and eventually you will persevere. If Cube never does get it? Oh well, the main thing is that you and Cube love each other to bits!!
I found that website accidentally (ok, I was searching) and printed it awhile ago. I'm not really able to follow the instructions to the letter, but I'm considering it a guideline. Every dog is different and since I'm not working with a puppy, things are a little less time-dependent (ie taking him to the box every 20 minutes is useless because I know that he doesn't have to go every 20 minutes), but I'm going to do my best.

I purchased a bag of generic (Walmart-brand I think) pine pellets. I prefer them to the newspaper ones because I can just reach into the bag and take out a handful and not get my fingers all inky... plus having a white dog, I don't want *him* to be all inky either. And I've used some newspaper ones, and they *did* leak colour. I'm sure some brands wouldn't, but I don't need to be spending $40 on a 10lb bag of litter, either, and the Yesterday's News stuff is almost the price of the pine pellets.

*slaps herself in the head* Clamps would have been so much easier... I manually drilled some holes (with a screwdriver) into the litter box and I'm using those little ratchet ties (not sure what they're called). They're kinda permanent, and one-time use only, as if I want to take the box out of the kennel, I'll have to cut them and replace them. Ah well... at least he didn't spill it today. I'm sure he'd find a way to undo clamps anyhow, so maybe this is the best.
What kind of dog is Rosie?

I agree with you... some companies really should allow the public to buy shares. Sort of like with Coop (not sure if you have one there, it's a grocery store/liquor store/gas bar line here) where you can buy a membership and then get a return at the end of the year based on how much you spent there. Last year I got a cheque for $60 plus they rolled over a bunch into *more* shares so I'll get more next year. Now if I could get a "return" on buying a certain brand of pet food... Petsmart needs to hurry up and get their reward card into Canada, cause their prices are better than Petcetera, where it's taking me forever to get my one free bag!

Thank you for having a similar outlook re; possible permanent "accidents". The less accidents he has (actually the less messes he has in the kennel) the more I find I enjoy him being around, so if we get to the point where it's only the ocassional pee in the house, I probably won't even blink, I'll just kiss him for reminding me to pay more attention to him.

Thanks!!
Melissa
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  #48  
Old April 14th, 2005, 08:17 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzie
You never mentioned you were going to take a litter box with you. I was simply pointing out the fact that the dog will need a litter box in other homes. He won't know to use the outdoors at other people's houses.
If I take my cats to someone else's house, I don't expect to find a litter box waiting there for me.
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  #49  
Old April 14th, 2005, 08:41 PM
Lizzie Lizzie is offline
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Sorry--I couldn't have known that.
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  #50  
Old April 14th, 2005, 08:43 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Unhappy Ok, now what?

Ok... seriously... is there a possibility the dog has an aversion to the litter box? How can he? I just took him outside *again*. At which point he started to do his normal "I'm going to poop" circles. When his butt dropped and he started pooping, I picked him up and put him in the litter box, and said good dog good dog good dog in a quiet but very enthusiastic voice. He looked at me really funny... kinda pinched his poop (turd hanging from him) and then after about 10 seconds, his butt came up again. Well I know he wasn't done, but he obviously wasn't going to go in the box. So I let him get out of the box. The second all 4 feet were back on the gravel (I have a little gravel spot that he uses), it was like a rocket and the rest of the poop came out. Still no pee. And he didn't poop in the box. So what do I do? Do I go pick up the poop, put it in the box and bring the whole stinky thing in the house? Or do I just keep trying, taking him to the box every few minutes knowing that he'll have to go eventually??

Or do I *really* piss off my cats and lock them out of whatever room I'm in and bring the litter box in and don't let him outside *at all* until he does something in the box? Do I forfeit his walk tonight because I know he'll poop more and pee gallons while we're walking? What should I do??
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  #51  
Old April 14th, 2005, 11:17 PM
Beetlecat Beetlecat is offline
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I'm afraid I've never been in your situation of litter training a dog, so I don't really have any personal experience advice to give you but only what is coming to me from what feels right to me.

Firstly, when my dog was just a little pup and he started to go somewhere inappropriate and I lifted him and took him top a better spot, he wouldn't just squat and finish peeing. He seemed to take the fact that I had interrupted him as a sign I was upset with him and didn't feel sure of the situation. Then when he realized I wasn't mad at him, he'd sniff and look for a good spot on his own and finish up.

Your dog is probably a little upset and touchy now, and lots of his early human interaction was not good, so whe you put him in the litterbox, he might have been trying to figure out what he had done wrong, and why you had inturrupted him in a vulnerable position. And no dog wants to **** in an uncertain situation.

Honestly, (and I don't want you to take this as gospel, I'm just trying to figure out what I'd do in your place) what I think I would do is take him outside to potty without the litterbox and let him go wherever he wants to. After all, going outside is not bad, and I see no reason to try to train out peeing on the ground at this point. You can have normal walks

And when he is inside, you would take him to the litterbox if he starts to potty inside.

I really don't think that the concept of 'going to the litterbox is good and going outside is good too' is too complicated for him.
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Old April 15th, 2005, 12:29 AM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Originally Posted by Beetlecat
Honestly, (and I don't want you to take this as gospel, I'm just trying to figure out what I'd do in your place) what I think I would do is take him outside to potty without the litterbox and let him go wherever he wants to. After all, going outside is not bad, and I see no reason to try to train out peeing on the ground at this point. You can have normal walks
And when he is inside, you would take him to the litterbox if he starts to potty inside.
I really don't think that the concept of 'going to the litterbox is good and going outside is good too' is too complicated for him.
Beetlecat,
Thanks for your honesty in never having dealt with this kind of situation...

The reason I took the litterbox outside was because we've developed a routine where he goes outside and at the very least pees (sometimes poops) the minute I get home. Of course then I went and screwed up this routine today by deciding to litter-train him instead. So when I got home, instead of opening the door to let him outside, I put him in a box with pellets at the bottom and told him to "go pee" (he's used to this command as we've been using it since I got him, he just doesn't always respond to it). And he couldn't figure this out. I thought that if I could take it outside, and catch him in the act, then I might be able to move him into the box, get him to finish there and praise till I ran out of air. Such was not the case, apparently.
How long does a person have to wait for a dog to realize they're NOT in trouble, relax and finish their business, before giving up and letting them out of the box so we can *both* go and have our dinner?
I'm not trying to tell him that he *can't* pee outside, just that I want him to know that he *can* use the litter box. It's just very frustrating to not know how far I can push him before I've pushed him too far! I don't want to do things too fast or expect too much too soon, but honestly, the turd was hanging out of him and he *refused* to drop it in the box!

Unfortunately, I think that trying to teach him it's ok to go outside AND it's ok to go in the litter box IS too much for him. We've been doing the "ring the bell" trick *everytime* he's gone out for more than 2 months, and he has only done it once without me telling him to (and that was today when he was getting desperate and I was standing there watching him--I put the litter box at the door). And then while I was preparing my dinner, he started to poop in the middle of my kitchen floor, and when I grabbed him and put him in the box, again, nothing. However, since my dinner was about to burn, I had to put him outside instead of waiting for him to go in the box (I don't think he would have anyhow).

So I don't know. I really think I need to stick to one kind of house-training, but which one is the right one?? If he hasn't learned how to ring the bell and tell me he needs to go out in 2 months, is he ever going to? And what if it takes him 6 months to learn that, then how long is it going to take before he learns to use a litter box? 6 years??

I know it's only the first day, and I didn't expect perfection on the first try, but I didn't really think this would be so hard for him. I didn't expect him to just *stop* and refuse to finish (or refuse to go at all) simply because he's standing in a litter box. I thought that if I caught him in the act (or waited until he couldn't wait anymore) that I'd be able to have him do *something* in the box today so I could praise him like crazy and feel like it might be something that could work. Now I'm not so sure he'll ever get it.

I need to go to bed... it's late and he's going to wake me up at 2am & 5am as usual.
Thanks again, and please keep the advice coming... the support, moreso.
Melissa
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Old April 15th, 2005, 01:44 AM
Prin Prin is offline
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Ok, I am so confused. You don't want the dog to "go" outside. You only want him to go in a litter box? Why? Maybe I missed something.

My first doggy when I was little was paper trained and yes, she did find paper or anything similar on houses we visited, so be careful...

Have you had tests done for diabetes and other possible causes of over-urining?

Someone should really tell people who adopt dogs that their first year will likely be way over $1000 in vet bills so they are better prepared. Boo costed us between 2000 and 3000 for the first three months. My dad's Jack had to have 3 of 4 canines removed at $400 a pop.
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Old April 15th, 2005, 11:52 AM
SarahLynn123 SarahLynn123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogmelissa
Eleni,

I'm doing my best to put (and keep) him on a schedule, but unfortunately, I do work outside my house, and I live alone. I am fairly close to home (10 minute drive) so by all rights I should be able to get home at noon to put him out, but that never seems to happen because I'm so busy at work. If I go away for lunch, then I end up staying late and that isn't good, either.

Melissa
This may not apply to you, but in my situation it works wonders. I also live 10-15mins from work and get a 1 hour lunch. My boss knows that unless I can bring my dogs to work, I need to go home for lunch to let them out. Instead of going out for lunch I always go home and if the girls want to chat they can come on over and do it my place. Its not always possible but I think maybe once every 2 months Im not able to make it home for lunch. It also saves money not eating out! If its possible, training would be alot easier if you were do what you can to make it home at lunch.
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Old April 15th, 2005, 12:38 PM
puppup11 puppup11 is offline
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Maybe if you did put some poop in his box he would get the idea faster along with those puppy pads. He knows that going outside is good. He doesn't know that going in the litter box is good too. Trying to correct him from going outside by making him go in the litter box instead of outside might just make him more confused. If you just correct him when he tries to go in the house, you're sending a consistent signal that going in the house is not ok, but going in the litter box is ok, and as he continues to go outside you aren't untraining that behavior either. Maybe if you just used the box with just the puppy pads, no litter at first? Because he's gone on them before, but he's probably not used to litter. Once you get the box thing down you can try a little litter at a time. What I meant before was when you get home, let him out of his kennel, but watch him like a hawk till he tries to do something in the house, then put him in the litter box. If he gets out without doing anything, fine. Watch him again. As soon as he tries to go again in the house, put him back in the litter box. And if you're in the situation where you can't watch him like a hawk, yes put him outside because it's better that he goes outside than that he goes in the house uncorrected.
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Old April 15th, 2005, 02:56 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Originally Posted by Prin
Ok, I am so confused. You don't want the dog to "go" outside. You only want him to go in a litter box? Why? Maybe I missed something.
No, I don't want him to ONLY go in the litter box, and NOT go outside. But since he hasn't been able to master *not* going in the kennel during the day, I thought it would be better if he learned how to use the litter box. And in order to avoid confusing the dog, it was suggested that I "pick one" and go with that. And since I expect him to use a litter box when he's in the kennel during the day, that was the logical choice. I thought it would be confusing to him if I still let him go outside, because then he still wouldn't understand what the litter box is for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
Have you had tests done for diabetes and other possible causes of over-urining?
He doesn't, IMO, "over-urinate". He, like me, goes about every 3-4 hours. He does seem to poop more than I expect, but that's a whole different issue, IMO, and not something the vet needs to check him for--it's a food issue which I'm trying to resolve. Plus there again, is that financial issue. It's not like he pees buckets everytime he goes, it's appropriate for the size of him, just that he doesn't tell me when he has to go!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
Someone should really tell people who adopt dogs that their first year will likely be way over $1000 in vet bills so they are better prepared.
If I had made the conscious choice to get a dog, I would have been able to prepare for vet bills. However, since the situation around which I got the dog was really an emergency (for the dog) rescue situation. And I think generally it's these kind of situations that cost a lot more than the "average" adoption. Unless of course you're getting a puppy, in which case vet bills will be high simply for shots and stuff.

Anyways... such is life. I have the dog now and the bills are already there, and I just have to get through it.
Melissa
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Old April 15th, 2005, 03:03 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Originally Posted by puppup11
If you just correct him when he tries to go in the house, you're sending a consistent signal that going in the house is not ok, but going in the litter box is ok, and as he continues to go outside you aren't untraining that behavior either. <snip>
What I meant before was when you get home, let him out of his kennel, but watch him like a hawk till he tries to do something in the house, then put him in the litter box. If he gets out without doing anything, fine. Watch him again. As soon as he tries to go again in the house, put him back in the litter box. And if you're in the situation where you can't watch him like a hawk, yes put him outside because it's better that he goes outside than that he goes in the house uncorrected.
See, *I'm* confused, and if I'm confused how does the poor dog feel?? I've been *trying* to teach him that it's NOT ok to go in the house, that if I catch him going in the house, he's going to get chucked outside. So now it's ok to go outside when I'm standing at the door telling him it's time, but when he feels that it's time on his own, instead of chucking him outside to teach him to go out there, then I chuck him in the litter box?? This doesn't make any sense. He's not going to end up being house-trained OR litter trained. I need to find some time where I can just sit with him... close us both in the bathroom with some toys and the litter box and just refuse to let him out of there until I can get him to do *something* in the litter box. I can't *sometimes* put him outside and *sometimes* put him in the litter box. He's not going to understand. All I'm asking him to do is give me a signal that he needs to go out, ring the bell, bark, whine, nudge my leg, ANYTHING. Trying to litter train him now isn't going to work. I'll continue to leave the litter box in his kennel and if he uses it, great. If not, then I'm going to continue on the house-training the way I have been; making him ring the bell when he goes out and if I catch him doing something in the house, march him to the door, ring the bell and then outside. When he's figured that out, maybe I'll try offering him a litter box when he tells me has to go and see how that works.

Thanks,
Melissa
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Old April 15th, 2005, 03:07 PM
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dogmelissa dogmelissa is offline
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Originally Posted by SarahLynn123
This may not apply to you, but in my situation it works wonders. I also live 10-15mins from work and get a 1 hour lunch. My boss knows that unless I can bring my dogs to work, I need to go home for lunch to let them out. Instead of going out for lunch I always go home and if the girls want to chat they can come on over and do it my place. Its not always possible but I think maybe once every 2 months Im not able to make it home for lunch. It also saves money not eating out! If its possible, training would be alot easier if you were do what you can to make it home at lunch.
I haven't had a lunch "out" (as in a purchased lunch) in probably 2 months. I always bring lunch with me. My problem is that I only get 1/2 hr for lunch, and the 10 minute drive (if I speed!!) each way pretty much kills that. I'd do it if it meant that he'd be ok, but also he has separation anxiety and going home for 10 minutes and then throwing him back in his kennel would probably make everything work. My vet told me that the first hour after you leave is really when the dog is upset. After an hour they pretty much settle down and sleep (exceptions apply). So to put him through 2 hours of stress in a day isn't really worth it. I'd rather just clean up after him in the evening then stress him out completely during the day. And if I could spend more than 10 minutes with him while I was home at lunch, then it might be ok, but with my time constraints and his separation anxiety, I don't think it's worth it.
Thanks for the suggestion, though.
Melissa
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  #59  
Old April 15th, 2005, 07:31 PM
puppup11 puppup11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogmelissa
I can't *sometimes* put him outside and *sometimes* put him in the litter box.
Maybe I wasn't very clear, or maybe you're right, it won't work. But what I meant was to ALWAYS put him in his litterbox when he attempts to do his business inside. He already knows it's good to go outside, as long as you keep praising him for that he shouldn't unlearn that. But if you want him to go in his litterbox you have to get the message across somehow, and since you don't want him going in the house the easiest thing to do is correct him and put him in his litterbox every time he makes a mistake in the house. That way you're correcting the bad behavior, teaching the second good behavior, and maintaining the first good behavior he's already learned. Or the other option would be to hope that he can hold it all day, which is not a really bad option either if it works. But I think you are right, you can't teach him to both go to the door and ring the bell, and use the litterbox. If ringing the bell is more important to you then go with that. The problem is that it doesn't address the issue of him soiling his kennel when you're gone. But if you ultimately don't want him litterbox trained at all, then I wouldn't bother training him for it at this point.

Last edited by puppup11; April 15th, 2005 at 07:36 PM.
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  #60  
Old April 15th, 2005, 09:05 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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Personally, I think it would be easiest just to forget about the litter box and just make him pee outside. A box is a box, whether it be a crate or a litter box.

Hey, something just came to mind. How about making him go on LITTER? Like put litter outside and make him pee on it and then when he goes on the litter, praise him? Teach him to go on the substance, not in the box and eventually, if it's anything like paper training, he'll go on anything that resembles kitty litter?

Maybe?
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