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  #91  
Old October 7th, 2006, 11:11 AM
Prin Prin is offline
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Nature's variety Raw instinct (42% protein):
Calcium (min): 2.49%
Phosphorus (min): 1.43%
Vitamin E (min): 128.6 IU/kg
Vitamin C* (min): 50 mg/kg


Orijen:
Protein 40.0% (min.)
Fat 16.0% (max.)
Carbohydrate 16.0% (min.)
Moisture 10.0% (max.)
Fiber 3.0% (max.)
Calcium 1.6% (min.)
Phosphorus 1.4% (min.)


And the quest continues...
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  #92  
Old October 7th, 2006, 11:23 AM
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notice how they all say "min"... so in reality the levels could be much higher, and we have no way of knowing
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  #93  
Old October 7th, 2006, 11:29 AM
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Yeah, they all say that. I don't know... Still the only food that I would trust completely (or as completely as possible, judging by the ingredients and the what we can find out) is the TO.

If I could, I'd get the TO Dakota Bison:
PROTEIN: 26%
FAT: 16%
FIBER: 3%
MOISTURE: 9%
Kcal/kg: 3,680
OMEGA-6 FATTY ACIDS: 3.8%
OMEGA-3 FATTY ACIDS: 1.4%
CALCIUM: 1.4%
PHOSPHOROUS: 1.1

http://www.timberwolforganics.com/product_p/db.16.htm
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  #94  
Old October 7th, 2006, 11:30 AM
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The evo is also really high ash (around 13%). Isn't ash supposed to affect the kidneys too?
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  #95  
Old October 7th, 2006, 12:57 PM
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i dunno anything anymore... sigh.

just thankful i'm feeding raw to eliminate most of the guesswork... we're slowly phasing out the kibble for dakotah to about 25% of his diet on average. but for those who can't or don't want to feed raw or home-cooked, yeah it's a very tricky ground to tread on, what's a person to do with all the contradictory information floating around? who to trust??

i'm off to the butcher's now to get ground beef and beef hearts... i can't say it's cheap but it's the price for my peace of mind, y'know?
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  #96  
Old October 7th, 2006, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
The evo is also really high ash (around 13%). Isn't ash supposed to affect the kidneys too?

Yes,the ash affects the kidneys as well. The ash content in EVO RM is 9.77%.

Too bad Orijen didn't have one that isn't chicken based as their calcium/phosphorus levels aren't as high. If you want higher protein than the DVP fish and sweet potato why don't you just add some extra meat to it?
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  #97  
Old October 7th, 2006, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technodoll
i'm off to the butcher's now to get ground beef and beef hearts... i can't say it's cheap but it's the price for my peace of mind, y'know?
I'm so jaaaaalous!! Well, Prin if it makes you feel any better, I'm also at a loss on what to feed. Nutro smells like puke. I'm almost finished the bag, and I still have alot of EVO left, so I'll be feeding it along with god knows what!?? I don't want to feed it by itself....
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  #98  
Old October 7th, 2006, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbow
Yes,the ash affects the kidneys as well. The ash content in EVO RM is 9.77%.

Too bad Orijen didn't have one that isn't chicken based as their calcium/phosphorus levels aren't as high. If you want higher protein than the DVP fish and sweet potato why don't you just add some extra meat to it?
Yeah, orijen looks the best of the high protein ones, doesn't it?

I was doing the math in my head and even if I use Evo as a supplement, it buggers everything up. Like DVP fish and sweet potato (vice versa) is too low protein and fat, so Evo RM would balance that out. But then DVP is well balanced as far as the vitamins and minerals and stuff goes, and Evo would just through that off. Like if I do half and half, the calcium and phosphorus would still be too high.

I think I'm back to square 1, hoping that TO comes to Montreal. Soon!

On the up side, it was the fish oil that was causing the drinking.
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  #99  
Old October 7th, 2006, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
On the up side, it was the fish oil that was causing the drinking
well that is good news
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  #100  
Old October 7th, 2006, 08:54 PM
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I'm with Prin.. This 4 way split of barking (almost gone though and I won't buy anymore SG weirdness) NV, DVP and EVO RM isn't my game plan either.. I'm not sure what I'll do when it's mainly gone, but I figure a month or to of this hopefully won't screw up Cider's body though lord only know what issues her parents had
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  #101  
Old October 7th, 2006, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
Yeah, orijen looks the best of the high protein ones, doesn't it?

I was doing the math in my head and even if I use Evo as a supplement, it buggers everything up. Like DVP fish and sweet potato (vice versa) is too low protein and fat, so Evo RM would balance that out. But then DVP is well balanced as far as the vitamins and minerals and stuff goes, and Evo would just through that off. Like if I do half and half, the calcium and phosphorus would still be too high.

I think I'm back to square 1, hoping that TO comes to Montreal. Soon!

On the up side, it was the fish oil that was causing the drinking.


I think Orijen is the best of the high protein foods as well, but, I'm a tad confused. I thought you didn't want anything to do with TO because of the lousy customer service.? And, it is definitely lousy.

You liked DVP fish and sweet potato so why not just add some extra meat for the protein?

Last edited by rainbow; October 7th, 2006 at 09:55 PM.
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  #102  
Old October 8th, 2006, 12:08 AM
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Sorry I forgot that bit- adding meat to the DVP would be hard simply because I don't really have much meat in the house ever... (not in the budget these days). TO's customer service sucks (REALLY), but their food is the only one that seems balanced all around. And they did actually call woofers and got the ball rolling to get their food in there... It's a start, no?
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  #103  
Old October 8th, 2006, 12:29 AM
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if woofers can have the stuff on a constant supply, then you won't have to deal with TO,s sucky customer service, it sounds ideal! only... will that happen?
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  #104  
Old October 8th, 2006, 02:33 AM
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Hopefully. Woofers was getting some pre-ordering sampley stuff soon... I just have to keep on them about it. If they can be the ones dealing with the customer service, then everything's good.
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  #105  
Old October 8th, 2006, 09:35 AM
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Ok, so I posted a question about Phosphorous and EVO on a boxer board, where they highly recomend Evo. Here's the responce I got....it makes sense, no?

Quote:
you have to compare apples with apples Canned EVO, just as an example, has a given crude protein level of 9%. But guess what? That's when it's inclusive of it's 78% water content. If you want to compare it directly with the dry version, you have to calculate the percentages on dry matter basis - and in that instance, the canned food has a crude protein content of 41%.

Same goes if you're trying to compare natural food with dry kibble. You're comparing apples with oranges until you calculate the content sans water. And depending on which meat and which particular part (eg. which portion of the chicken) you're talking about, then the protein content of raw meat/bones usually comes out in the range of 55-65% protein. That's significantly higher than EVO

Of course, it's still not directly comparable - natural food is metabolised differently from dry kibble. But it is far closer than imagining you can make a direct comparison between something that's 70% water and something with the water content removed. To do so is simply nonsensical.

High protein diets are NOT a cause of kidney disease. That's a myth, and more than that, a dangerous one. It sprang up simply because an early method of treating/managing dogs with kidney disease (ie. those with damaged or defective kidneys) included low protein diets. So some people leapt to the conclusion (an erroneous one) that that must mean that high protein caused damage. Wrong. Protein and phosphorus have nothing to do with it. It is nitrogen that can be an issue. But that's easily solved too - feed a high quality and digestible meat protein based diet instead of a crappy grain based one. More digestible means less nitrogen waste products.

Quite a lot of effort has gone into correcting and eliminating that prticular myth. Obviously, it is still at large

Here are a few links, including to veterinary articles, that should put the issue to rest:
http://www.peteducation.com/article....articleid=1104
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Oper...protein_RD.pdf
http://www.jeanesholistics.com/artkidneyfailure.html
http://b-naturals.com/May2004.php
http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html

High protein and high phosphorus do not cause kidney failure. And low protein isn't even required for animals who actually *have* kidney failure. What is required is high quality, digestible protein that produces little in the way of nitrogen waste products - because *that* is what causes the kidneys to work hard.

As for EVO - it may be high protein compared to traditional kibble. But traditional kibble is ridiculously low in useable protein. Both are well below the protein content of a natural raw diet.
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  #106  
Old October 8th, 2006, 09:36 AM
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I feel like the more I know, the less I know
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
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  #107  
Old October 8th, 2006, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meb999
Ok, so I posted a question about Phosphorous and EVO on a boxer board, where they highly recomend Evo. Here's the responce I got....it makes sense, no?
I read the first paragraph and I no longer feel as smart as I thought I was before having read it!
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  #108  
Old October 8th, 2006, 03:59 PM
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seriously, this is like complicateder than any class I've taken!!
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  #109  
Old October 8th, 2006, 04:13 PM
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Umm.. I don't know about that post... The first two links don't work. The third is a "pick and choose" article (where the "author" picks and chooses the "facts" to support his/her theory), and the 4th is the one Techno posted already, which was discussed a bit (most of the info there was indirectly all taken from one study from the netherlands), the 5th says this:
Quote:
These authors point out that Phosphorus blood levels can play a major role in the health status of dogs with compromised kidney function
with links in it to this:
http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html
Quote:
Phosphorus: Elevated phosphorus is dangerous and needs to be controlled. It is questionable how important phosphorus is when blood levels are still in the normal range (below 6.0 mg/dl), but my feeling is that it is still important to reduce phosphorus in the diet, and be sure to use adequate calcium (which binds phosphorus), even when the levels are normal. When phosphorus levels are above the normal range, even by small amounts, then I think it is vital to both reduce phosphorus in the diet and use phosphorus binders, plus you may need to do other treatments as well.
The problem is, your person is still arguing whether or not PROTEIN affects kidney function, using links that demonstrate that, but we're talking about phosphorus here, which his links do say contributes significantly to renal issues.
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  #110  
Old October 8th, 2006, 07:17 PM
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kibble: astronaut food for dogs!

seriously... would it be too much to ask the petfood companies to adhere to a few simple, honest standards?...
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  #111  
Old October 8th, 2006, 07:20 PM
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Yep. Apparently it is.
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  #112  
Old February 12th, 2007, 10:25 PM
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[QUOTE=Scott_B;295434]



i wonder how this handsome bully looks like now. Any recent pics scott?
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  #113  
Old February 12th, 2007, 10:40 PM
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Handsome....yes but, he's not a bully.
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  #114  
Old February 12th, 2007, 10:42 PM
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isn't a bullmastiff a "bully"? from the bully breed...
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  #115  
Old February 12th, 2007, 10:43 PM
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Bullies are a lot of things..
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  #116  
Old February 12th, 2007, 10:58 PM
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I just don't like the term "bully" for any "bull breed".
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  #117  
Old February 13th, 2007, 06:49 AM
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Sorry Rainbow, thats what most bullmastiff owners will refer to them as. bullies. We don't (at least most of the bullmastiff owners I know) call them mastiffs as thats a bread all by itself. Prin pretty much has it down, any of the bull breeds seem to get the bully name. I understand what you mean though about the term "bully", but imo, thats just reading too much into things.

Anyways, I don't have any good recent pictures. I'll see what I can come up with though later. He hasnt grown much. Only 118lbs.
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