Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > Dog training - dog behavior

View Poll Results: Who do you prefer, Brad or Cesar?
Brad 17 14.17%
Cesar 71 59.17%
Neither 29 24.17%
Both are equal 3 2.50%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old November 14th, 2008, 03:04 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Agility addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Ontario
Posts: 236
Not at all. He believes in the whole 'alpha' thing. I don't.

He suggests people dominate dogs.. I don't.

He teaches people to flood and suppress dogs. I don't (flooding is bad)

He uses techniques that are so dangerous that they have to run disclaimers on screen. I use ones that a 2 year old could use.

Not sure where anything I have said sounds like the stuff the Milan spouts.
  #92  
Old November 14th, 2008, 03:33 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
She is fearful, I teach her that I will protect her. She does not need to protect us. I teach her to focus on me.
Here. Don't get offended Dekka.
  #93  
Old November 14th, 2008, 03:36 PM
bendyfoot's Avatar
bendyfoot bendyfoot is offline
Geek Club CEO
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 5,019
Ok, I really need you to explain HOW you are dealing with your reactive-aggressive dog...

HOW do you manage Dekka around other dogs?

WHAT do you do if she suddenly goes nutso with aggression and tries to attack another dog, unprovoked?

HOW do you teach her not to be fearful?

HOW do you teach her to focus on you?

I like the IDEA of what you're saying, but you're not describing your techniques or methods.
__________________
Owned by:
Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11)
Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9)
Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4)
Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3)
Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
__________
Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011)
Riley and Molly
  #94  
Old November 14th, 2008, 05:22 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Agility addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Ontario
Posts: 236
LOL ok well Cesar may say that but its nothing new.. good trainers have been saying that for ages.

First off I teach a few things at home. I teach a very reliable watch me. Then I go to places where I know other people have great control over their dogs. Advanced obed and agility classes. Agility in particular is great as many people have DR dogs, so are experienced and sympathetic.

I work Dekka as close as she is comforatable. If she begins to tense up I get her to focus and move back a foot.

I NEVER take her to places where there are likely to be off leash dogs. I make sure she NEVER gets attacked again. (I almost lost her as a pup due to her littermates... she still carries the scars) IF there is an off leash dog she is small enough I can pick her up. If she was larger (there would be less risk.. but she is very tiny) I would keep myself between the other dog and myself. I do this with my son's BC. He is nervous on leash and I don't want it to escalate to DR. I ask for him to focus on me and sit.

Dekka now has a 'bubble' around her. On a good day its about a foot and a half, on a bad day its just under 3 feet. If I let down my guard and don't pay attention and a dog gets into her bubble she will react (and sounds down right evil!!) I don't punish her as its my fault. She is scared and upset, she looks to me to protect her-why punish her for my failure?

I do worry about other peoples out of control dogs. I can only do so much to protect her.

She is totally fine with dogs she has met a few times and has fantastic dog speak skills.

Snark speak..

Being tolerant






Just because she is reactive to strange and therefor 'possibly dangerous' dogs does not mean she can't live with our pack at home or hang with friend's dogs. She is one of the most tolerant JRTs I know of when it comes to other dogs ... as long as she knows them.
  #95  
Old November 14th, 2008, 10:07 PM
K9 Love's Avatar
K9 Love K9 Love is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 42
I didn't get to read any of the other posts yet, but your example with heeling is a great one IMO. And yes, I agree that stringing a dog up is completely unnecessary. My trainer does do this sometimes and I hate seeing it done, she is a koehler (sp?) fan though. She's unfortunately an ear pincher too... Another "famous" trick I hate.

I also used leash pops for heeling with my dogs. Hades didn't require many so I saw little to no effect with him, but Roxy was also a lagger. I would give her pops, and I came to realize that my need for the correction wasn't lessening, which it should if the correction is efficient. Now for fun, and because she loves it, I just use an IB to get her up and excited, it's been working really well for us, except people in the rally ring think I keep saying "sex,sex,sex,sex,sex" as our IB/TB is "x". ROFL!

With Roxy specifically, I definitely see what your saying in regards to heeling. I went through it myself and noticed a change almost immediately. I never strung her up, or zapped or anything for heeling, but even those little leash pops can slowly shut a dog down and make them hate heeling.

ETA - I'm slowly working my way through your posts Dekka, lol.

And I have a question. You said all dogs agress out of fear. You saw Roxy with mafia, it's almost as though she WANTS to be patted, but as soon as the patting stops or you reach for the wrong spot, she growls and sometimes snarls, I don't think she snarled that day. I have a hard time labelling it fear if she's the one moving towards the stranger in that exact situation. Does that make any sense? LOL. I've just come to tell myself that regardless of label, I'm leaning towards it just being a learned behaviour for the both of us now, my nerves go, she senses it and people just don't touch her so she isn't used to it.

Do you believe ALL dogs "agress out of fear", or just most?

I use the term "aversive" as taken from Karen Pryor's website, as something an animal is willing to work to avoid. So if a dog jumps up and you ignore it, it no longer jumps up because it doesn't want to be ignored. Everyone understands and views terminologies differently, and that is my understanding of the word "aversive". It does not have to physical and I use it very generally. I think the definition off of Karen Pryor's website is pretty general in itself! LOL.

Last edited by K9 Love; November 14th, 2008 at 10:17 PM.
  #96  
Old November 15th, 2008, 01:06 AM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Agility addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Ontario
Posts: 236
I think 99.9% of dogs aggress out of fear. Confident dogs have no need unless there is a clear and present danger.

Do you know Roxy's history? She could be torn between wanting to make a connection and fear. Joey was like that.. he would go up to people, then snap at them. He has progressed nicely, but he had never had a really bad experience. Just the owners yelling and leash popping. It could very well be a learned behaviour chain.

I do believe just as there are unbalanced people there are unbalanced animals. I own a dog that is 'not right in the head'. She has issues that are NOT normal. Her dam was PTS due to similar issues. She goes into a 'state' where she does not recognise any one or anything. Very scary. So in those cases its not nessissarily fear.

(oh and prey drive isn't really the same thing as aggression IMO.. that is a food behaviour some dogs will go after other dogs/cats out of prey drive)

Yes some people refer to anything that a dog works to avoid as aversive (and techinically that is correct) But most people equal aversive with P+ only.
  #97  
Old November 15th, 2008, 07:16 PM
K9 Love's Avatar
K9 Love K9 Love is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 42
A ha, now I see the difference. I say "correction" in regards to P+. Aversive to me is a more "positive" outlook on technically ceasing or correcting behaviours, although of course aversive can be physical, I use it when referring to the more softer ideas of "correction" like ignoring. Correction to me is harsh leash pops, prongs, e-collars etc.

I know Roxy's history from the day I got her at 6 weeks old. Before that, she was confined to a dog house, never saw the inside of a house before I got her. There were children at the house where I got her that I imagine played with the dogs. Not too sure of the amount or "quality" of human contact she had during those super important first weeks of life.

She wasn't socialized nearly enough in her first year of life although this is how we got the strong bond we still have despite my use of harsh aversives/corrections. We spent day in and day out together and very soon on I discovered her overly protective "aggression". We went to obedience classes and only managed those behaviours, my trainer never really wanted to work on her issues with being touched. It was all about management, a calm, polite dog in heel position as you talked to a stranger, or a dog that didn't lunge and snarl at the mere sight of a man approaching too closely. I will say, she has come a LONG way! LOL

Something that Roxy is also notorious for, is allowing you to scratch her chin (She let Lane do this, she never bit him although she did do this..) and as soon as you stop, she grumbles and "grabs" your hand with her mouth. She has excellent bite inhibition, rarely if ever does she bite too hard during play, she just literally grabs your hand. Of course the label that comes naturally to me although I don't like it is "dominance".

So I've come to think that Roxy's issues are mainly genetic, but only worsened by environment and I don't believe she will ever be "normal" in the sense of allowing anyone to pat her. Another thing I forgot to mention, and is very recent is, Roxy was diagnosed with hypothyroidism only a few months ago and is now on medication. After I've done some reading I'm rather angry at my vet for not suggesting the T4 work earlier as one of the symptoms is aggression/depression/laziness. I guess because she's only been this way, my vet didn't think that it could be anything medical.

So perhaps with some more work and time, with her medication she may get better. We've definitely noticed a change in behaviour already, now we just have to combat the fact that it's likely a learned behaviour now.
  #98  
Old November 17th, 2008, 09:07 AM
bendyfoot's Avatar
bendyfoot bendyfoot is offline
Geek Club CEO
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 5,019
So, just to clarify/make sure I understand you correctly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bendyfoot View Post
Ok, I really need you to explain HOW you are dealing with your reactive-aggressive dog...

HOW do you manage Dekka around other dogs?

You keep other dogs away from her, other than those she knows, and remove her from situations where other dogs may be in a position to harm her.

WHAT do you do if she suddenly goes nutso with aggression and tries to attack another dog, unprovoked?

You ignore and move her from the situation, it was your fault for letting other dogs get too close.

HOW do you teach her not to be fearful?

You do not allow other dogs to harm her. (But if she can't have dogs in her "bubble", is the fear still not present?)

HOW do you teach her to focus on you?

Verbal command?


I like the IDEA of what you're saying, but you're not describing your techniques or methods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post

I work Dekka as close as she is comforatable. If she begins to tense up I get her to focus using what? treats? verbal command? and move back a foot.

I NEVER take her to places where there are likely to be off leash dogs. I make sure she NEVER gets attacked again. (I almost lost her as a pup due to her littermates... she still carries the scars) IF there is an off leash dog she is small enough I can pick her up. If she was larger (there would be less risk.. but she is very tiny) I would keep myself between the other dog and myself. I do this as well, but the undesireable behaviour doesn't stop. I do this with my son's BC. He is nervous on leash and I don't want it to escalate to DR (what's DR?). I ask for him to focus on me and sit.

Dekka now has a 'bubble' around her. On a good day its about a foot and a half, on a bad day its just under 3 feet. If I let down my guard and don't pay attention and a dog gets into her bubble she will react (and sounds down right evil!!) I don't punish her as its my fault. She is scared and upset, she looks to me to protect her-why punish her for my failure? So what you're saying is, you expect her to always be reactive so you don't punish/correct undesireable behaviour because the expectation for her not to react is too high? So you basically are going with an avoidance of the stimulus approach?

I do worry about other peoples out of control dogs. I can only do so much to protect her.

She is totally fine with dogs she has met a few times and has fantastic dog speak skills.

Just because she is reactive to strange and therefor 'possibly dangerous' dogs does not mean she can't live with our pack at home or hang with friend's dogs. She is one of the most tolerant JRTs I know of when it comes to other dogs ... as long as she knows them.

Ours too, for the most part. We've been able to introduce two other dogs to our home since really starting to work with Gracie, with no major incidents. The new puppy is a total royal pain in the butt and Gracie is unbeleivably tolerant and patient. There are some dogs that she "knows" that she is totally fine with. However, these are typically either dogs with more submissive/quiet personalities or dogs that are not interested in engaging with her..
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you basically are avoiding the negative stimulus (other dogs too close to her) and you do not correct aggressive behaviour because it was your fault for letting other dogs get too close. Is that right? I'm asking, because my expectations of Gracie are different...and I'm wondering if you would think they are reasonable and/or attainable.
__________________
Owned by:
Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11)
Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9)
Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4)
Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3)
Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
__________
Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011)
Riley and Molly
  #99  
Old November 17th, 2008, 09:28 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,187
I guess we all approach certain situations differently. I for one never avoid a situation that is uncomfortable or undesireable to any of the dogs that I get. I expose my dogs to everything. I believe in desensitizing a dog through routine and showing and guiding them through situations. This does not mean pulling, tugging and yelling. This is simply going through encouragement and making the experience positive.

I have to tell you - I have had great success thus far. I apply the same on horses.
  #100  
Old November 17th, 2008, 09:50 AM
bendyfoot's Avatar
bendyfoot bendyfoot is offline
Geek Club CEO
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 5,019
I know everyone has different methods, and that's why I keep probing Dekka for more information...because I'm open to learning new techniques and am interested to hear when someone is having success with a difficult problem such as dog-dog aggression. I think, though, if my interpretation above accurately reflects Dekka's methods, that I'll have to just respectfully agree to disagree on the overall approach...I'm hoping she has more information or can correct any misinterpretations on my part...
__________________
Owned by:
Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11)
Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9)
Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4)
Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3)
Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
__________
Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011)
Riley and Molly
  #101  
Old November 17th, 2008, 11:47 AM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Agility addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Ontario
Posts: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by bendyfoot View Post
I know everyone has different methods, and that's why I keep probing Dekka for more information...because I'm open to learning new techniques and am interested to hear when someone is having success with a difficult problem such as dog-dog aggression. I think, though, if my interpretation above accurately reflects Dekka's methods, that I'll have to just respectfully agree to disagree on the overall approach...I'm hoping she has more information or can correct any misinterpretations on my part...
You can't make some dogs like dogs. I could shut her down and force her to accept strange dogs in her bubble. BUT that would take some serious punishment and destroy the happy dog I have now.

That is like saying a person who has been raped should be forced to accept strange men coming up and touching them. I don't think yelling and pushing them back is unacceptable.

IMO people should have control over their dogs. Why should anyones dog be less than a foot from mine? If my dog can work and not interfere with anyone else's then there is no issue.

My cue to watch me.. is just that a verbal cue "watch me". You can't be snarling at a dog if you are looking up at me . DR=dog reactive.

JRTs escalate to aggression, so if I was to punish her sufficently to suppress the manifisation of this behaviour I would risk her getting worse.

I would be curious to know how people would deal with this, with out using trust and respect. If you aren't allowed to acknowledge your dog is very uncomfortable and respect and work with that.. then what do you do? If I was to 'correct her' she would either assume I was scarier than the dog.. so shut her down that way. Or she would associate my 'aggressive' behaviour with the presence of the dog and make her worse (as per the joey scenario)

You can see in the heeling vid there are other dogs around and she doesn't even look at them. She knows I will keep her safe and they are no threat. We compete in dog sports that require dogs to be in very close quarters, but even so dogs are seldom less than a foot from each other.

Last edited by Dekka; November 17th, 2008 at 11:50 AM.
  #102  
Old November 17th, 2008, 12:17 PM
bendyfoot's Avatar
bendyfoot bendyfoot is offline
Geek Club CEO
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 5,019
I want my dog to know that I'm the one in control of the situation, not her. If she's growling and posturing and lunging, then she is taking control of the situation, and I'm letting her do it. Not only then, is she being rewarded by the behaviour itself, but also by my implied approval of the behaviour.

Aggressive behaviour is particularly unacceptable IMO when the "offending" dog has done nothing other than exist and poses no threat whatsoever (either in proximity or in body language). If another dog initiates an attack or aggressive behaviour, I would expect a dog to retaliate or protect itself. It's the unprovoked aggression that should be corrected/stopped/discouraged IMO.

We rarely see it get to that point these days (lunging/growling), but when we first started working on this issue, no measure of removal from a situation (until litteraly out of eyeshot), verbal commands (she knows "watch" perfectly when in an uncharged situation), or distraction with toys/treats/anything were effective in breaking her focus from the other dog, nor her desire to litterally KILL (I'm not exaggerating) the other dog. I'm sorry, but I don't care what her fears might be, if any, that behaviour is completely unacceptable.

With the guidance of a trainer we started doing two things: reestablishing our role as the leaders using consistent and super-frequent obedience training and NILFF training in the home), and using a prong collar to administer a correction the very second her body language indicated her intention to aggress (usually pricked ears/alert eyes, stiff body and gait). (Note that by "administer a correction" I mean using a properly positioned/fitted colar and one, quick pop on the leash). The obedience work helped strenthen our relationship and her understanding of her role as the "follower", and the prong allowed us to stop the aggressive behaviour before it started. This was practiced both in private classes and on our own at home, and it did not take long to see major changes.

The most dramatic change was in her overall demeanour at home. She was still the same intelligent, strong-willed,happy, silly girl with a great sense of humour, but now she was RELAXED. She was no longer staring out windows, guarding doors, pacing up and down stairs to "check on things" or barking at the slightest indication of movement outside. She had let it all go, and we hadn't even been working on those issues directly. She no longer thought she needed to be in charge or responsible to keep things safe and under control...she understood it was the HUMANS' job to do this.

Now, on walks, I allow her to meet other dogs, on-leash (loose of course) if they appear friendly...she is able to do this now, and if she starts thinking about "starting something" a quick tug on the leash (flat nylon collar now) she snaps out of it right away and can continue greeting politely (I can't remember the last time I even needed to do that). On walks, if she sees a dog she "doesn't like" and starts to posture, a quick tap on her back with my finger or my heel on her flank snaps her out of it, she relaxes and looks to me immediately for guidance, slackens the leash completely and walks by calmly, all the while being showered with glowing praise. She trusts me to take care of things. One day two jack russels came flying down a neighbour's lawn onto the road and proceeded to try to attack her. She did nothing to retaliate, and simply hunkered down and waited for me to take care of the situation, which I did. So really, it is about trust. She trusts me to manage potentially "bad" situations, and respects my position of leadership. I trust her to behave appropriately and provide her with opportunities to learn and practice polite behaviour with other dogs.

We've added two dogs to our house, something we never thought possible a few years ago.
__________________
Owned by:
Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11)
Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9)
Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4)
Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3)
Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
__________
Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011)
Riley and Molly
  #103  
Old November 17th, 2008, 12:26 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,187
Bendyfoot I am with you on this. (definately not to suck up mind you - but I have always agreed with what you write).

I do not 'let' my dogs dictate to me how they are going to behave. I am not going to 'work around' anything unless I am asking something that this particular dog is NOT capable of doing. The dogs will cope and they will get over whatever their problem is. If that means having the dog longer with me, then I rather keep plugging away then to place a dog that is not yet ready.

I will actually go out of my way to controlled situations in order to correct certain undesireable behaviours. If I can sense a danger due to someone else then I will avoid THAT particular situation (the typical person walking dog on an extended lunge lead and talking on the cell phone syndrome).
I truly believe in desensitizing a dog to uncomfortable situations.

I also always use another well balanced dog to assist me. This always seems to help me with training.

Ok that is my ....I'll be quiet now.
  #104  
Old November 17th, 2008, 12:37 PM
bendyfoot's Avatar
bendyfoot bendyfoot is offline
Geek Club CEO
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 5,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
Bendyfoot I am with you on this. (definately not to suck up mind you - but I have always agreed with what you write).

Ahhhh, suck up all you like...my ego always has room for a little more inflation

I do not 'let' my dogs dictate to me how they are going to behave. I am not going to 'work around' anything unless I am asking something that this particular dog is NOT capable of doing.

Precisely. Whether physical, or mental, or whatever, some dogs have limitations. I will not force my three-legged dog to jump an obstacle, because she is not physically capable of doing it. I will not punish my 6 month old puppy for making a mess in the house, because she is not physically able to hold it. I would not expect Gracie to leave a loose rodent in the house alone while she's unattended because she's a terrier, and is a dog, and chasing and killing rodents is what many dogs do. I DO however, expect ALL my dogs to behave in a civilized manner around humans and other dogs.

I will actually go out of my way to controlled situations in order to correct certain undesireable behaviours. If I can sense a danger due to someone else then I will avoid THAT particular situation (the typical person walking dog on an extended lunge lead and talking on the cell phone syndrome).
I truly believe in desensitizing a dog to uncomfortable situations.

Again, agreed. We worked with Gracie with our trainer to practice being around other dogs. He would bring in either one of his own pets or a dog he was currently training, and in doing so, "set up" Gracie for a very controlled and safe interaction. It was consistent, with a predictable outcome: if she attacked another dog, she was corrected. The moment she relaxed, she was rewarded with praise and love and play. If she approached another dog calmly and politely, she was rewarded with praise and love and play. Every. Single. Time. It didn't take long for her to realize what the better option was. I should point out, too, that Gracie didn't know how to play with other dogs. It wasn't until we regularly MADE her interact with other dogs in a polite way that she started to learn how to initiate and respond to play. We'd never seen her play bow until we got our new puppy. The more exposure she gets to well-mannered dogs, the more she learns, even if she slips sometime and has to be reminded of the rules.

I also always use another well balanced dog to assist me. This always seems to help me with training.

Definitely. As I said, regular exposure to stable well-mannered dogs seemed to be key. If we had avoided all dogs just to avoid the bad behaviour, well... We wouldn't be going on many walks or enjoying our little pack of three right now.

Ok that is my ....I'll be quiet now.
//////////
__________________
Owned by:
Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11)
Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9)
Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4)
Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3)
Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
__________
Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011)
Riley and Molly
  #105  
Old November 17th, 2008, 01:09 PM
happycats's Avatar
happycats happycats is offline
Senior Contributor
Hexxagon Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ontario
Posts: 4,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveOnyx View Post
Have you guys seen his newest addition? The blue nose pup? (I don't know his name, he didn't say) HE'S SO CUTE!
OMG he's adorable!!! I think his name is Junior.

Did you see the one with the really aggressive Rotti that was rescued by a girl who worked at a rescue, he was un adoptable due to his aggression.
Cesar took him home to rehabilitate him, and his oldest son was working with him and was making great progress, so then Cesar told his son he could keep him It was so sweet, people may think he bullies the dogs, but judging by himself and his son, he LOVES that dog!!

He is the same way with his kids, always calm with the kids and wife, and they all seem very happy and well adjusted, like his pack!
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is man without beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.

~~Chief Seattle (Duwamish tribe)~~
  #106  
Old November 17th, 2008, 01:27 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,187
I am certainly not ashamed to say that I am a Caeser fan. I know alot of trainers that are not but I think it's out of jealously. All my dogs since I started working with them 15 years ago respected me and I them. I learnt alot along the way and continue to do so. From every trainer good or 'bad' I have learnt something new on what to do and what NOT to do.
  #107  
Old November 17th, 2008, 01:28 PM
bendyfoot's Avatar
bendyfoot bendyfoot is offline
Geek Club CEO
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 5,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by happycats View Post
OMG he's adorable!!! I think his name is Junior.

Did you see the one with the really aggressive Rotti that was rescued by a girl who worked at a rescue, he was un adoptable due to his aggression.
Cesar took him home to rehabilitate him, and his oldest son was working with him and was making great progress, so then Cesar told his son he could keep him It was so sweet, people may think he bullies the dogs, but judging by himself and his son, he LOVES that dog!!

He is the same way with his kids, always calm with the kids and wife, and they all seem very happy and well adjusted, like his pack!
Yeah, Junior's just gorgeous

I saw that episode with the rottie, I loved how well it ended up for everybody
__________________
Owned by:
Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11)
Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9)
Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4)
Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3)
Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
__________
Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011)
Riley and Molly
  #108  
Old November 17th, 2008, 03:00 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Agility addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Ontario
Posts: 236
Quote:
The most dramatic change was in her overall demeanour at home. She was still the same intelligent, strong-willed,happy, silly girl with a great sense of humour, but now she was RELAXED. She was no longer staring out windows, guarding doors, pacing up and down stairs to "check on things" or barking at the slightest indication of movement outside. She had let it all go, and we hadn't even been working on those issues directly. She no longer thought she needed to be in charge or responsible to keep things safe and under control...she understood it was the HUMANS' job to do this.
See I agree. I control the situation. My dog is very relaxed. She is NOT on alert. She knows I am in control and I will protect her. She does not pace, does not fret.. her confidence in me is what allows us to work with dogs closely.

Can you tell the difference between a calm shut down dog (which you often see on CM show..) or a calm confident dog?

Now for a dog not with her history and breed then yes I would expect her to get to the point of greeting other dogs if she wanted too. But as she was nearly killed at 14 weeks by other dogs and still carries the scars I am not unrealistic.

Just a note. Even some of my friends who are HUGE prong collar promoters (I don't mind them for some dogs.. I wouldn't use them.. but I dislike them less than chokes) say never to use them with reactive dogs. They 'might' work. But even they say you have just as much of a chance that the dog will associate the correction with the other dog-thus raising the anxiety level of the dog. Once again if you are working with an 'easy' breed that is naturally friendly and outgoing its going to more more often than a breed that is not.


To the person who says its jealousy.. what is there to be jealous of? Most trainers who dislike him its because we see what his 'methods' do in the hands of the people who watch him. Its because we hate to see untrained dogs terrorized and litterally foaming at the mouth with stress. There are much simpler... yet less dramatic for TV ways to fix the problem. Most trainers are upset that the show is more about entertaining TV than helping dogs. Just look at the dog fight episode. It is probably his most watched episode (if you count the people who watch on line) And its probably going to fuel lots of people who are 'pro BSL' . Thats NOT good for dogs.. yet he let it happen and stuck it on TV!!! How can people support a 'dog person' who seems to have so little regard for dogs?
  #109  
Old November 17th, 2008, 03:24 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,187
I will use the word again Jealous. My main company are trainers...and even they admit that Caeser has something to offer.

So I will agree to disagree with you. I will review all your posts and see if there is anything there interesting that I can use. Thanks for your vision and sharing of information. All very interesting reading.
  #110  
Old November 17th, 2008, 03:45 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Agility addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Ontario
Posts: 236
hmm yes we will have to disagree. I don't see anything that he has to offer that isn't the same as your local mediocre PetSmart trainer has to offer. And even if he did have some good... I don't see it worth all the harm he does.

I am a trainer, and I am NOT jealous. I don't want a TV show. I don't see him as a trainer, so I don't know what I could possibly be jealous of (other than having a TV show.. but I don't want one) There are lots of other trainers I look up to. But my dogs win often enough in many different dog sports that I am totally content in myself and my dogs (not saying I can't improve-lol we can all improve and should never stop learning)

Most of the people I know that despise him don't want what he has. So once again not sure of what they could be jealous of.

Even some of the e collar trainers who used to like him are starting not promote him so much anymore after that dog fight episode. (considering many of them are still helping to fight BSL in Ont)
  #111  
Old November 17th, 2008, 03:51 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,187
I always keep an open mind Dekka. Personally I didn't know you were a trainer, and I find it unusual that you find what he has to say as useless.

The trainers I know train police dogs - so that is a different method all together. Other trainers help dogs that have aggressive tendancies, and others are the day to day trainer. I have yet to hear anyone bring up that episode that has caused such controversy. Or maybe they are forgiving.

I have to tell you - I have made mistakes and thank DOG no one watched my errors....I would be crucified! WOW! BTW - I would love a TV show!

Last edited by BenMax; November 17th, 2008 at 03:56 PM.
  #112  
Old November 17th, 2008, 04:07 PM
bendyfoot's Avatar
bendyfoot bendyfoot is offline
Geek Club CEO
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 5,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
See I agree. I control the situation. My dog is very relaxed. She is NOT on alert. She knows I am in control and I will protect her. She does not pace, does not fret.. her confidence in me is what allows us to work with dogs closely.

Can you tell the difference between a calm shut down dog (which you often see on CM show..) or a calm confident dog?

So we have both arrived at the same result (the relaxed dog with confidence in her owner) using different techniques...perhaps the ones best suited for those particular dogs?

And yes, I know the difference, I've seen both states in dogs.
__________________
Owned by:
Solomon - black DSH - king of kitchen raids (11)
Gracie - Mutterooski X - scary smart (9)
Jaida - GSD - tripod trainwreck and gentle soul (4)
Heidi - mugsly Boston Terrier X - she is in BIG trouble!!! (3)
Audrey - torbie - sweet as pie (11 months)
Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
__________
Boo, our Matriarch (August 1 1992 - March 29 2011)
Riley and Molly
  #113  
Old November 17th, 2008, 04:39 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Agility addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Ontario
Posts: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by bendyfoot View Post
So we have both arrived at the same result (the relaxed dog with confidence in her owner) using different techniques...perhaps the ones best suited for those particular dogs?

And yes, I know the difference, I've seen both states in dogs.
Perhaps. Though using suppression often has fall out. Not always. I personally would try the least 'dangerous' methods first. And if they fail then go to the riskier ones. Why start with techniques that risk escalating the problem? Why not show the dog what you want and reward that.. instead of punishing what you don't want?

At least that way if for some reason you had a 1 in a million dog that doesn't learn like most mammals then you could try suppression.
  #114  
Old November 17th, 2008, 07:20 PM
K9 Love's Avatar
K9 Love K9 Love is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
Perhaps. Though using suppression often has fall out. Not always. I personally would try the least 'dangerous' methods first. And if they fail then go to the riskier ones. Why start with techniques that risk escalating the problem? Why not show the dog what you want and reward that.. instead of punishing what you don't want?

At least that way if for some reason you had a 1 in a million dog that doesn't learn like most mammals then you could try suppression.
If there's anything on this thread I can agree with wholly, it would be the bolded quote Dekka.

I always introduce new behaviours as positively as absolutely possible as I don't want immediate negative associations with the behaviour UNLESS it's a behaviour I wish to cease like jumping the fence or messing with the cats. Now separately I may do positive sessions, but when it comes to ceasing absolutely unacceptable behaviours I do sometimes go right to correction, whether it be mild or not.

I'll always believe that there does come a time when there is a consequence for blatant uncompliance and regardless of what anyone says, I know when my dogs blatantly ignore me. Whatever the reason, it's unacceptable and that warrants a correction in my book BUT I always try my absolute hardest to go the positive route first. And usually it works quite well, I just choose to add in some correction/aversives when proofing to make sure the behaviour is completely reliable when I need it to be.
  #115  
Old November 17th, 2008, 07:40 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Agility addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Ontario
Posts: 236
K9 have you read Shaping Success? Its a really interesting read (and entertaining)
  #116  
Old November 17th, 2008, 08:06 PM
K9 Love's Avatar
K9 Love K9 Love is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 42
No, I haven't although I have a list of must read dog training books somewhere.. lol

My number one on the list though that I'm hoping for Christmas is Control Unleashed. I've been TOLD, numerous times, (LOL) by people that it's a must read for aggressive/reactive dogs.

I went through a shaping phase well over a year ago, I really enjoyed it as did my dogs. We had a lot of fun. I use it mainly for tricks now, but SATS which is very similar to shaping is what we've been focusing on for the past few months with tricks or transferring it over to obedience, clumsily I must say! ROFL!

Who's the author of that book?
  #117  
Old November 17th, 2008, 08:39 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Agility addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Ontario
Posts: 236
Susan Garrett. Its one of those books that really makes you look at your training (at least it did for me) Now that is one trainer I really look up too. She consistently trains world class dogs and trains people and their dogs to world class levels too. But the book isn't written as a training book really. Its just her story, and her struggles to train a 'really really over the top lacking impulse control BC'.

If I can find it by the weekend (I might have lent it out) I can lend it to you.
  #118  
Old November 17th, 2008, 10:33 PM
K9 Love's Avatar
K9 Love K9 Love is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 42
I looked to order it online. Susan Garett is awesome. I've seen her so many times on Top Dogs with Buzz and some videos here and there on youtube. When I searched for it, I didn't think I'd found the right book as you just said it isn't necessarily a training book rather a "biography" of sorts. I had no idea she even wrote a book!

I imagine you get to see her a lot at agility trials and such. Must be pretty neat to see. What about Guy Blanke, I think his name is, with Unia. Have you met him? Do you agree with his training methods? I don't know too much about him other then he's spectacular to watch in the agility ring. I know someone who met him out west a few months ago and said he was really nice. What training style would you say he uses? He really flows on courses, it's almost like watching a ballet performance! LOL

That'd be awesome if you could find that book!
  #119  
Old November 18th, 2008, 08:45 AM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Agility addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Ontario
Posts: 236
I don't see Susan too much as she tends to trial closer to home. LOL my very first trial though.. Susan, and Kayl and a bunch of other world team members were there. (duh who else would be at a trial on a wed morning.. the pros hahaha) Not that I knew who they were at the time-but some were wearing their worlds shirts.

Brandi with Soshi is at a lot of the same trials as me. (She has ran in worlds with a Shiba.. now there are some training skills for you!) There is some awesome agility being ran in Ontario!! I haven't met Guy but he posts a lot on the Bark list (the AAC agility yahoo list)

Susan Garrett also wrote Ruff Love.. the very controversial book. Its all positive training.. but its very very very harsh. Its so harsh its a taboo subject on the clickersolutions list!! (even though its all positive methods!)

I will look for it....
  #120  
Old November 18th, 2008, 02:27 PM
K9 Love's Avatar
K9 Love K9 Love is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 42
How is it harsh if it's positive training methods?!? You have me REALLY confused! LOL I need something more specific to get the wheels in my brain a turnin'!

Must've been intimidating! I bet they're all nice people though.

I have to do some extremely last minute prep for the trial this Sunday... I have NO expectations whatsoever! We've had a lot of issues popping up, specifically the forging to get away from the food bowl and now from our running stand we do, some hesitiation with hand movement during heel. *sigh* Ah well, I just have to remind myself it's ALL FOR FUN! Can't wait to see you again!
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
    Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 0%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45 AM.