Raw food for pets - BARF diet

[minipups]

I started several years ago giving my tiny chihuahua and my minpin/pom a chicken wing each in the morning. Just a raw chicken wing. they both devoured the whold thing bones and all. Then they had a good quality kibble in the evening. I fed them this for at least a year. My minpin/pom got really fat(she is a real food moocher) I thoght it could be the fat in the chicken skin so eventually after trying several products I settled on a bag of meat patties that I can conveniently cut into the right proportions for the size of dog. These pattis contain fruits, veggies and herbs also. It cost about twenty bucks for twelve patties. that would last for 24 days roughly. I have four dogs now and still feed the same way. My chihuahua is six and a half years old and he has a beautiful shiny coat and really nice teeth. He hasn't had his teeth cleaned yet. My min pin is really obese now and that is another problem. (my other dogs range from thin to normal.

[Copper'sMom]

When I leave for work, Zoe gets a kong ball and a kong filled with treats. I'm a little worried about not giving them to her when I leave as it is her routine that is associated with when I leave. She looks forward to me leaving!
So, can I still put the same treats in or should I put meat etc in them?? The treats she gets are store bought, supposedly natural - OMH biscuits, wellness bars, northern biscuits, and 2 small milkbones(for kong ball - to hold treats inside). I don't see any preservatives and additives and such on the packages either so I'm assuming they are still good for them!
And if I did put organs or meat in a kong and she doesn't eat it - will it have to be thrown out? I leave at 2pm for work and my b/f is home from work by 6 or 7pm. Sometimes she won't eat certain things unless we are here, so when he gets home, she would then want to eat it.
OR What if I put them in frozen??

[Copper'sMom]

HOLY CRAP!! I just gave Copper and Zoe a Chicken Leg Quarter, and Copper is CRAZY for it!!! He ate the first one, so I gave him a 2nd and it was devoured in 2 minutes!! The first one he was eating some pretty big chunks, but so far so good. He's whining right now as Zoe is working on hers still! Copper was soooo excited when I gave him the 2nd one! I think he's gonna love this diet - I just hope his tummy does too!

Oh and he ate raw LIVER!!! Zoe wouldn't, so I just gave him a small piece and baked the rest! Thanks phoenix for the recipies! I used the second one!

Here's what I bought today. Please tell me how I am doing as I never buy this stuff!
Top row is beef brisket(boneless) and beef liver,second row is beef tripe and 2 really small mature chickens(label says good for stewing??)
2nd picture is 2 cans of sardines and 6 bags of Chicken Leg Quarters(2-3 legs per bag)! All of this was $31.00 tax included! The brisket alone was $6.00 after 2.50 coupons were used.

[SarahLynn123]

How often is it OK for them to have canned tuna?

We dont have alot of time in the morning to let them take their time crunching thrugh bones and such, so, is canned tuna OK for breakfast everyday?

Thanks
Sarah

[phoenix]

check this out, a good site IMO

http://avalongreatdanes0.tripod.com/id2.html

nice groceries, glad the liver worked out!!

the tripe in grocery stores isn't the kind that is good for dogs, that is green tripe, I don't know where you buy it except online...

[technodoll]

copper's mom, nice loot the only thing i would change is the bleached tripe, no nutrition in there for the doggies... if you need help finding it online or locally, just let me know and i hope to be able to help you. but beware that stuff stinks, LOL! also for the first couple of weeks i would limit the intake to one protein source only - in your case, chicken - and go easy on the liver, it can cause loose stools in large amounts or if given too soon into a raw diet (it's very rich). once your dogs have those small, hard, beautiful poops (LOL yes there is such a thing ) then you can add another protein source of your choice, say turkey as you can feed bone-in peices, then eventually richer meats like beef, pork, lamb, etc.
also i think paying more than $1 per pound of food is not really a good deal... have you checked out any food sources other than the grocery store? if you need pointers in that direction i would be glad to help on that too, unless you don't mind paying more for the meats, LOL!
sooo glad your doggies are enjoying it, please keep us posted!

[dtbmnec]

can cats eat raw too?

Silly question since they only eat in the wild and all....:s

but erm yeah....how much would it cost (roughly) to switch two little boys onto raw food? (like on a month to month basis)

Right now they're getting the little Friskies cans that say its good for two meals (provided of course Leo doesn't eat Pawz's portion)

Megan

[Copper'sMom]

Better prices huh? I thought I did good on the chicken leg quarters didn't I? 0.938kgs converted into pounds is 2lbs, right? I paid $2.01 I know the beef brisket was pricey, but I figured the dogs would love it! I gave them a little - it helped Zoe move onto the chicken as she's not too sure about this stuff!

A few more questions!
1)It is ok to give them the chicken leg quarters WITH the bones, right?? As long as they aren't cooked? Just want to be sure!! They did have them Monday, and all seemed well. I'm just waiting for their yard deposits to inspect!!

2)Do I give them other things with their chicken right now? Like organs, fish, eggs, cottage cheese etc?? Or do they justget chicken(with bone?)?

3)Is it too early to feed the whole chicken carcass?

4)Should I be worried that Copper is swallowing large chunks? He's not chewing the food to his full potential. He normally chews his food really good, but yesterday he was inhaling the chicken!

5)One meal a day or twice a day?

6)Copper weighs 80lbs - he needs to lose a few though. 1.5 lbs of food a day is good for him? He's not very active.
Zoe weighs 52lbs. 1 - 1.5lbs for her? She is very active most days!
Thanks for the info on that tripe!! I'll just throw it in the garbage - it was only $3.00 but if it's not nutritional, they aren't eating it!
Thanks again phoenix for the new link! It will help me out alot! My memory is poor, so those guidelines will help me out alot!

And just a BIG THANK YOU to technodoll, phoenix and others who have been so helpful in providing all this info and answering our gazillion questions!!! Thank you sooooo much!

[meb999]

Here's an excerp from the link that Phoenix posted :

THESE ARE THE SUPPLEMENTS WE USE IN OUR PROGRAM

1. Fastrack probiotic ( high count multiple good bacteria and enzymes ) Necessary to keep good bacteria levels and ensure enzyme activity. This also is Natures "way" of protecting the GI tract from bad bacteria growth.

2. Organic bone meal as follows: 3 TBSP per 4 cups food mix, 2 TBSP per 2 cups of food mix, 1/2 TBSP per 1 cup of food mix, 1 TSP per 1/2 cup of food mix.

3. Ester-C (non acidic) vitamin C: We give 1500 mg to our adult danes and 500 to 1000mg to our pups.

4. Kelp: 1 TSP per 25# weight, up to 3 TSP maxumum daily

5. Cod Liver Oil: 2 to 3 capsules per day

6: Vitamin E 400 I.U. 2 per day

7. Brewers Yeast: 4 per day

8. Flax Seed oil and Ground Flax Seed: 1000 mg and 2 TBSP per day

9. Juice Plus: For the dogs that won't eat their veggies and fruits or your time is limited, or you are traveling with your dog. I just bring the capsules and add to the meat and the Fastrack. This provides my Great Danes with the nutrition of the raw veggies and fruits in a great easy form to carry.

ok, I get the probiotics. When they talk about bone meal, do they mean like real bone meal, the stuff you put in your flower beds?
Why Brewers yeast?
Why vitamin C ?
Thanx, and sorry if they're stupid questions

[phoenix]

hey marie eve,

when we weren't sure why Maia was coughing, it was recommended to give Sam vitamin C to boost his immune system so that he didn't catch what she had... he didn't catch it... so I guess it's for the same reasons that we take vitC in cold season.

Don't know about the yeast.

[meb999]

another stupid question. If raw is a dog's natural diet, then why do we have to add probiotics to help them digest it? Is it just in the begining that you add these? I've read alot Raw feeders don't add any supplements to their diet... So are these supplements mandatory, or just recomended ??

MAkes sense about the vitamin C....

I imagine that the Cod liver oil and vitamin E are for the dog's coat, right? These wouldn't be necessary if you feed a rich (or a little fatty) meat, would they?

What's the flaxseed for? I always put ground flaxseed on my salads...but that's to boost my metabolism! I doubt that's why they recomend it for dogs!!

ok...I know I'm getting annoying with all my questions. It's just that the sites I've been on that recomend these suplements don't say what they're for!!

[phoenix]

Hi marie eve, I'll answer what i know or what i think i know

Originally Posted by meb999

If raw is a dog's natural diet, then why do we have to add probiotics to help them digest it? Is it just in the begining that you add these? I've read alot Raw feeders don't add any supplements to their diet... So are these supplements mandatory, or just recomended ??

the site i posted was just a recommended list that they follow. some don't add things, some add some of these (i remember technodoll posting somewhere, maybe this thread, the things she adds). I think the biggest issue is that you may not hit all of the recommended vits/mins etc in one week, so this ensures they're all there... Oh, and the reason for probiotics I think is that we kill off a lot of our intestinal flora (the little guests inside our guts) when we ingest anything with antibiotic in it... so sometimes dogs get antibiotics for illnesses but also this may be in the food, right (chickens are routinely fed antibiotics, all the time...)-

Originally Posted by meb999

I imagine that the Cod liver oil and vitamin E are for the dog's coat, right? These wouldn't be necessary if you feed a rich (or a little fatty) meat, would they?
What's the flaxseed for? I always put ground flaxseed on my salads...but that's to boost my metabolism! I doubt that's why they recomend it for dogs!!

Ok, fish oils and flaxseed oils both have omega 3 fatty acids. these do help the coat and skin. if you fed cold water fish then i guess you wouldn't need this... fatty meat is a different type of fat than this... one you don't want (think of the saturated vs unsaturated that you see on tv in margarine commercials)...

does anyone know of a site with supplements and what they're for that's an easy resource?? I can't remember what vit e is for, people put it topically on their skin... but inside us i can't remember.

[phoenix]

Here's the vitamin list, from http://www.drweil.com/u/Article/P176/


Vitamin A: For healthy tissues, inside and out. The best form is from fish oils, like cod-liver, and is beneficial to dogs and cats.

B Vitamins: Promote growth and aid in healing. B Vitamins are also necessary for fat and protein assimilation, as well as metabolic processes. They are found naturally in eggs, yogurt and kefir (an enzyme-rich yogurt-like product that stimulates digestion and peristalsis).

Vitamin C: An essential antioxidant that helps eliminate free radicals. Carnivores can produce their own vitamin C, but their need for it increases in stressful situations. The best form for dogs is calcium ascorbate, which is water-soluble and causes the fewest side effects (such as nausea or diarrhea).

Vitamin E: An essential antioxidant. Promotes healthy circulation in the heart and arteries. It also helps protect the lungs from the effects of pollution. Senior cats especially can benefit from increased vitamin E intake to maintain their immune system responses.

Probiotics: Just as we need active, “friendly” intestinal flora to help us digest our food, so do dogs. Enhance your pet’s diet with active cultures, and treat them to kefir or plain yogurt on occasion. You can give them to your pet 4-7 times a week, to help restore and maintain a healthy digestive tract.

[meb999]

thanx Phoenix! Very informative!

[technodoll]

sorry for being MIA, just now catching up on all the posts (you guys have been busy, LOL). Looks like the questions have been answered, or did i miss anything?...

cats can absolutely be put on a raw diet, in fact they thrive on the stuff... cats are obligate carnivores (if they don't eat meat, they will die, unlike dogs who can adapt to a meatless diet). the only thing is the fussiness of cats... some take to the raw diet immediately, others need a little to a lot of coaxing. the ratio is still the same than for dogs (about 15% edible bone more or less, 10% organs, and the rest meats).

[Copper'sMom]

Originally Posted by technodoll

sorry for being MIA, just now catching up on all the posts (you guys have been busy, LOL). Looks like the questions have been answered, or did i miss anything?...

Ummmm, can you answer these for me please?

Originally Posted by Copper'sMom

A few more questions!
1)It is ok to give them the chicken leg quarters WITH the bones, right?? As long as they aren't cooked? Just want to be sure!! They did have them Monday, and all seemed well. I'm just waiting for their yard deposits to inspect!!

2)Do I give them other things with their chicken right now? Like organs, fish, eggs, cottage cheese etc?? Or do they justget chicken(with bone?)?

3)Is it too early to feed the whole chicken carcass?

4)Should I be worried that Copper is swallowing large chunks? He's not chewing the food to his full potential. He normally chews his food really good, but yesterday and today he was inhaling the chicken!

5)One meal a day or twice a day?

6)Copper weighs 80lbs - he needs to lose a few though. 1.5 lbs of food a day is good for him? He's not very active.
Zoe weighs 52lbs. 1 - 1.5lbs for her? She is very active most days!

Meb999, I read on the yahoo raw feeding group about the fish oils. They say not to give the cod liver oil, but instead look on the label for fish oil or omega 3 fatty acids. I just can't remember why they said no cod liver oil . But then again, everywhere you read some say do this and others say don't do this! Some of it is confusing!

BTW: How's Buster doing??????

[technodoll]

)It is ok to give them the chicken leg quarters WITH the bones, right?? As long as they aren't cooked? Just want to be sure!!
Yes, absolutely. Farmed chickens are slaughtered very young and have thin, soft (well for the dog's teeth & jaws) and very digestible bones, from head to foot.

2)Do I give them other things with their chicken right now? Like organs, fish, eggs, cottage cheese etc?? Or do they justget chicken(with bone?)?
It really depends on how your dogs are doing on the first few items you offered them. Some dogs have strong systems that never skip a beat when being transitioned to raw, their poops are beautiful from day 1. for others, it takes a bit of time to adjust, hence the precaution to initially limiting the variety of fresh foods given to minimize tummy upset. I'd go easy on the dairy, it can often cause gas and runny poops, fish is great and organs, go slowly here... your best bet is to monitor your dog's general reaction to raw, and go from there.

3)Is it too early to feed the whole chicken carcass?
nope, just make sure they don't gorge because overfeeding can cause runny stools (body ingests too much food and tries to get rid of the excess before all the water has been filtered out).

4)Should I be worried that Copper is swallowing large chunks? He's not chewing the food to his full potential. He normally chews his food really good, but yesterday and today he was inhaling the chicken!
Not a very good idea to gulp food, larger peices of bone are harder to digest than crunched-up bits. Many raw-feeders give frozen or half-frozen RMBs to their gulpers, to slow them down... you may want to try that. Plus the jaw, head & shoulder workout is much better!

5)One meal a day or twice a day?
entirely up to you and what your dogs prefer! easier on the tummy to feed twice per day but if your dogs are OK on eating once per day, go for it!

6)Copper weighs 80lbs - he needs to lose a few though. 1.5 lbs of food a day is good for him? He's not very active. Zoe weighs 52lbs. 1 - 1.5lbs for her? She is very active most days!
Again, feed about 2% of body weight in food per day (weigh stuff at first), and after a couple of weeks you will see where you need adjustment. You can feed leaner meats to Copper, for example, and fattier meats to Zoe, so they get plenty of food but still maintain proper weights. Cutting out carbs in their diet is a great way to turn that fat into solid muscle... give it a couple of months, you will be amazed!

[meb999]

Originally Posted by Copper'sMom

BTW: How's Buster doing??????

Much better now. The vet said it was a mix of food poisoning and heat exhaustion. He had pretty severe diarhea for almost a week (but he was drinking lots of water, so I wasn't too worried). After one dose of Pepto-bysmol (recomended by the vet, of course), everything cleared up! Thanks for asking! He's back to his old active self! The episode has made me even more weary to change his diet though....so I keep researching it for the time being....

[Copper'sMom]

Anyone else considering switching? I found this website and I think it's pretty good! http://www.rawdogranch.com/index.html

And wow, I can't believe the difference in their poop! They're so small now! My mom can't tell the difference between Copper's poo and her American Eskimo's poo! It's so much harder to find it in the yard now!
Both dogs are doing really well so far! I thought Copper's tummy would be sensitive(it usually is), but he proved me wrong! And Zoe's getting the hang of eating raw food too! We are on our 3rd day and things look great!!!!!

[technodoll]

i am so thrilled for you As i said, if you do it right, from the beginning, there should be minimal tummy upset... slow and simple and easy does it... too many people rush into it and then freak out when there is diarhhea to deal with. looks like you got the hang of it already, aren't those mini-poops (compared to kibble-poop) a sight for sore eyes? yep... lots goes in, lots gets digested, little is wasted. now just you wait for the shiny, supersoft and odorless fur to grow in... less shedding... for those ears to stop smelling... etc. you'll never want to go back

[starsen]

How I feed raw:
http://members.cox.net/starsen/feedi...3rawfoods.html

[mafiaprincess]

Potentialy stupid Q..
How many of you raw feeders have to prepare things like organs for your crew, like cooking them some, or fully to get them to eat them?How much do you do before they like them?

[technodoll]

How many of you raw feeders have to prepare things like organs for your crew, like cooking them some, or fully to get them to eat them?How much do you do before they like them?

there is NO stupid question, ever!

for the organs, i gave up after about a month trying to get them to eat them in raw form. and i can't blame them, it's a texture that some dogs just don't want to get used to (bet that if they were in the wild though, and had not much else to eat... they'd get used to it!). so about once every 10 days, i drop a couple packages of liver (i rotate the animal source) or kidneys on a foil-lined cookie sheet and bake for about 20 mins, that's it. After everything has cooled down, i drizzle the liquid on soft stuff (ground meat, fish, eggs, etc) and it gets inhaled... the rest goes in a baggie & in the fridged, doled out in small portions every other day for about a week. the dogs think it's the best treat ever, they have no idea it's really nutritious, LOL!

[meb999]

two more questions :

- can I add a raw egg to Buster's kibble, or is that like feeding raw meat at the same as kibble ?

- One of the things that worries me the most, is that I may have time to feed raw now, but in a couple of years, once we start having kids and stuff, I may not have time. Can you feed raw for awhile then go back to kibble, then back to raw...?
Maybe I could feed raw on weekends, and kibble during the week?

[technodoll]

- can I add a raw egg to Buster's kibble, or is that like feeding raw meat at the same as kibble ?

- One of the things that worries me the most, is that I may have time to feed raw now, but in a couple of years, once we start having kids and stuff, I may not have time. Can you feed raw for awhile then go back to kibble, then back to raw...?
Maybe I could feed raw on weekends, and kibble during the week?

about the raw egg in the kibble, i do that with my boy,s meal once in a while and have seen no problems (scramble raw Omega-3 egg with some yogurt... he loves that). but some dogs don't tolerate raw + kibble mixed, so i would suggest you try it out during the weekend when you are there to monitor his tummy. chances are he'll be fine, but you never know.

and some raw is better than none at all, as long as buster tolerates the weekly switch from kibble to raw, if that is what suits your lifestyle then go for it. some raw feeders leave grain-free kibble out for their dogs to snack on, or use it when they are travelling or board their dogs, etc... life doesn't have to be so black and white.

[BoxerRescueMTL]

can I add a raw egg to Buster's kibble, or is that like feeding raw meat at the same as kibble ?

All our fosters are on kibble and they always get raw eggs. Helps the skinny ones put on weight and get their coats nice and shiny.

[Esaunders]

After listening to all the raw talk I have my pup on a 50/50 plan now. Solid Gold puppy kibble in the morning and a raw meal in the evening. He seems to be best on pork right now. He got a pork hock and some meaty backbones this evening and polished them off in no time.

You're right about the smaller poops with raw too. He only goes about twice per day now and occasionally snubs his kibble. (waits it out for the raw in the evening)

Not so fond of raw liver though, that one had to be baked.

He seems pretty happy with the development, now I just need to find a cheaper source than Dominion/Whole Foods Market

Any good recommendations near the southern Mississauga Oakville border?

[Copper'sMom]

Originally Posted by Esaunders

Any good recommendations near the southern Mississauga Oakville border?

Check prices at the butcher shops! They should all be around the same price, or at least they are in my area(1.5 hrs east of you). Their prices change weekly - if you buy in bulk. It's probably much cheaper to buy in bulk - this is my next step - price shopping. I have all my requirements written down on how much I need per week and per month so now I can check with the butchers on deals!

OH always check your A&P flyers - they occasionally have meat on buy one, get one free!!! Ususally chicken, roast beef THIS WEEK it is Rib steak! Although i'm not sure what that is exactly!

I bought 10lbs of frozen pork butt chops for $14.00 at the butcher the other day - not a bad deal.

[Denwishy]

This threadis really informative!!! I have a 5lbs chihuahua, Gizmo. He is
almost 4 years old. He has always had dry skin, and recently he has been having allegies (which i still cannot figure out what he is allegic to ) Is feeding raw really that much better than a kibble? He is on wellness fish and potato right now. He seems to be ok but not great. He was on Eukanuba before and when he started getting allegies, i changed to Wellness.

I always thought that you are not supposed to feed then bones, especially chicken/ turkey bones which when broken, are very sharp and can tear their their intestines and tummies? It is safe? Is there a difference between raw and cooked bones?

Wendy

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Denwishy

Is feeding raw really that much better than a kibble? He is on wellness fish and potato right now. He seems to be ok but not great. He was on Eukanuba before and when he started getting allegies, i changed to Wellness.

I always thought that you are not supposed to feed then bones, especially chicken/ turkey bones which when broken, are very sharp and can tear their their intestines and tummies? It is safe? Is there a difference between raw and cooked bones?

Wendy

hi Wendy,
Feeding raw vs. feeding kibble is a contentious issue- some feel one is better than the other but the only proof is in the pudding. You have to try it and see if it is better for your dog. I know that many allergic dogs do much better on high end kibble, and even better sometimes when switched to raw.

You can feed soft uncooked bones to dogs but weight bearing bones (leg bones of beef, bison for example) can be more dangerous. For larger dogs, they have no problems eating a chicken leg. For a chi, I'd be looking at starting smaller (backbone maybe?) You should never feed cooked bones as they are drier and can splinter.