Help Pls - Dog dies suddenly under care of vet

[o0paradigm0o]

I need to decide what to do - do I pursue a legal course of action, do I file a complaint with the veterinarian board or do I move on with life?

The short-short version:
- we took our pet in to get his ears checked and roughly 8 hours later he died of complications. The vets actions, though not intentional, caused his death.

The less-short version:
- 4 month old bichon-****zu
- we visit the vet to get his ear looked at - there were signs of an infection
- the vet decides that picking hair out of his ear is necessary
- the dog screams and the vet suggests we're exciting him and suggests they take him to another room; we agree to let them do this [and we are now haunted by this decision]
- we sit in an adjacent room and listen to the dog scream for a few minutes and everything goes quiet
- later we find out that they muzzled him and during the ordeal he vomited in his muzzle
- he takes vomit into his lungs
- the vet comes back into the room and tells us they need to watch him in case he develops aspiration pneumonia
- the vet watches him the remainder of the day (~4 hours); we receive mixed reports throughout the day
- the dog stops breathing and they put him on oxygen
- they transfer him in an emergency vet ambulance to a specialist centre
- he arrives and shortly thereafter his heart stops
- they perform cpr, but it's ultimately too late
- aspiration pneumonia had set in and our little dog died in roughly 8 hours

We're having an autopsy performed that will likely confirm the opinion of the specialist that the stress caused by the vet caused not only the induction of the vomit, but also (if I recall correctly) adrenalin that jammed open his blood vessels in his lungs and caused his lungs to fill with fluid.

Our family is completely heartbroken and I am trying to determine a course of action. I have zero interest in receiving financial compensation. If, in fact, the evidence supports some form of negligence/mishandling, I want to prevent another animal (and family) from going through the same mess.

If it's just a serious of unfortunate events, and from a legal standpoint the vet isn't going to be held responsible for the death of this animal, then I'd like to move on and drop the notion of going to the board, looking at small claims, getting a lawyer, etc.

As a side note, for those having your pets looked after by vets:
- don't ever let them take your pet out of the room (particularly for something that should be routine)
- we should have gone back to the vet that afternoon to check on our dog - and we should have gotten him out of there and taken him to a specialist earlier; always get second opinions
- don't let your vet mislead you about how serious something might be; we allowed ourselves to be comforted by the soft-delivery of what our pet was going through - we were ill-informed and trusted too much

Thanks in advance for the advice/feedback.

[luckypenny]

I'm so sorry for your experience and for the loss of your puppy .

Personally, I would, at the very least, bring this unfortunate event to the attention of the Board of Veterinarians. You can also ask if there have been other complaints filed against him and, perhaps, that may help you decide how to proceed.

Thank you for sharing what happened to you and your pup. Hopefully others will see this and take your valuable advice.

Again, my condolences on your loss.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by o0paradigm0o

I need to decide what to do - do I pursue a legal course of action, do I file a complaint with the veterinarian board or do I move on with life?

You move on with life, but the question is, what will help you do that?

Persuing legal action means, on the positive side, you may get to see guilty parties punished for wrong-doing, and you may prevent future similar incidents for other people and their dogs. On the negative side, it will draw out your suffering, and you will have to relive that day over and over and in front of many people. You may also lose. No matter how good a case your lawyer thinks you have, you may lose. There is no harm in talking to a lawyer and discussing your options for civil or criminal charges, and getting a legal deadline when you must make that decision.

Filing a complaint with the veterinary board is probably a good idea. They will investigate and if negligence is found, reprimand in some way. If it was a freak accident that occurred during standard procedures and with responsible personnel, perhaps they will review how things are normally done and set safer practices.

I am very sorry for your loss. May your puppy

[Melinda]

I am so sorry for your loss, what a terrible thing for your puppy and your family to go through, I would probably bring it to the attention of the vet board as the others have said.

[chico2]

How very sad,for you and the pup
Were I in that situation,I would probably need to do something,would not be able to,just get on with my life.
It sounds like a horror story IMO and I would want some kind of justice for my dog,even if it means the vet will only be reprimanded.
It could be he has more complaints,this should be reported to the Vet-Board,if it were a human patient,there would be no question about what to do,a little dog should be no different.
I am very sorry this happened to your family

[14+kitties]

A dogs' ear hair should never be "picked" out. It should be trimmed though in some breeds. IMO I think a formal, written complaint to the vet board may be your only recourse.
How sad you and your pup had to suffer this way. little baby

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

A dogs' ear hair should never be "picked" out. It should be trimmed though in some breeds.

Is there a thread on plucking vs trimming ears?

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Is there a thread on plucking vs trimming ears?

Umm, I believe the word I used was "picked". Now if we're playing semantics - "plucking" needs to be done properly in order to cause the dog as little pain as possible. It sure doesn't sound like that was done in this particular case. There are powders to use in order to give a better grip when "plucking" therefore causing less pain. I for one am not a fan of causing dogs pain. Trimming, in my opinion, of a four month old puppy would have been sufficient and a lot less stressful. The vet could have recommended the puppy go to a groomer who would then do the job properly.
Now - back to what the thread is about please..........

[Rgeurts]

My first question would be why the need for a muzzle on a 4 month old puppy? I understand they can bite, but an experienced (or good) vet would not muzzle a 4 month old puppy. I would most definitely make a complaint to the board, but I would not stop there. There are several web sites for vet clinic reviews. I would find each and every one and tell my story. I would also check with the media, someone like Troubleshooters or Marketplace that do consumer stories, they love stuff like this and can help to get your story out there. Also make a complaint to the Better Business Bureau. Even if the clinic isn't a member, you can still lodge a complaint and people who check with the BBB will be able to see it. Hopefully by doing those things you may save someone elses baby. Unfortunately, it won't help with yours

I'm so very sorry you and your family had to endure such a horrific experience. My heart truly goes out to you

sweet puppy

[SamIam]

If considering legal action, it is important to determine at what point the vet failed to provide adequate care for your puppy. Picking/plucking is a technique frequently employed by veterinarians and groomers for hairs growing fairly deep in the ear canal of certain breeds including shih tzus and bichons. The ear hairs that may be trimmed are farther out. Many such dogs are head-shy particularly at their first grooming, and in some cases, even when correctly done, the picking/plucking does cause momentary discomfort. It is not unusual to use a muzzle to help calm the dog, prevent the vet/groomer being bitten, and allow the head to be held still for picking/plucking, cleaning, and visual inspection. Taking the dog out of his owner's presence often improves the dog's behaviour as well. On those points, I do not believe the legal action you are considering will hold any water in court, though still valid points to bring up with the veterinary association. If the autopsy is able to confirm your puppy's death was brought about by stress, then what you are looking for is at some point your vet made a poor decision. We should be able to trust our vets' ability to determine the urgency of treating a certain condition (your puppy's ear infection), to be able to identify the limit between reasonable and unreasonable stress, and to know at what point the treatment (picking/plucking ears) becomes less important than protecting them from unreasonable stress. At times a vet needs to stand back and consider alternate approaches when dealing with a resistant dog. Hopefully the autopsy and an initial lawyer consult will help you determine whether this is a matter you wish to pursue.

[Rgeurts]

Originally Posted by SamIam

It is not unusual to use a muzzle to help calm the dog, prevent the vet/groomer being bitten, and allow the head to be held still for picking/plucking, cleaning, and visual inspection. Taking the dog out of his owner's presence often improves the dog's behaviour as well. On those points, I do not believe the legal action you are considering will hold any water in court, though still valid points to bring up with the veterinary association.

I would have to whole-heartedly disagree with that. Neither one of mine are put in a better state of mind by being taken out of our presence. In fact, they both get highly stressed which is why we will not leave them. If the vet is not comfortable doing what he/she is going to do in front of us, we will find another vet. As for the muzzle, one of ours has seizures due to the stress of being muzzled. The vet should have spoken with the owners prior to doing something like that. Are there legal grounds? I have no idea. But one thing I do know is that vet made an extremely poor decision. And as for muzzling as not to get bit, it's a 4 month old puppy, small breed. He could have had an assistant hold the puppy's head. There was no need for a muzzle.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Rgeurts

I would have to whole-heartedly disagree with that. Neither one of mine are put in a better state of mind by being taken out of our presence. In fact, they both get highly stressed which is why we will not leave them. If the vet is not comfortable doing what he/she is going to do in front of us, we will find another vet. As for the muzzle, one of ours has seizures due to the stress of being muzzled. The vet should have spoken with the owners prior to doing something like that. Are there legal grounds? I have no idea. But one thing I do know is that vet made an extremely poor decision. And as for muzzling as not to get bit, it's a 4 month old puppy, small breed. He could have had an assistant hold the puppy's head. There was no need for a muzzle.

Regardless of whether you think muzzling was appropriate, it is a common practice, and in court that will count. Your dog has been muzzled at least once, I don't know the circumstances. This dog was muzzled only once, and they don't have the option to just never do it again with this dog. Perhaps it is a practice that should be reviewed and better instruction given to vets on when to proceed with a muzzle and when to back off and approach from a different angle.

[t.pettet]

Unbelievable! I would get a lawyer who deals with animal issues (ask your local spca for a reference) and sue the pants off this vet, advise the Vet Med. Assoc. and get financial compensation through the courts. A 4 mo. old pup (or any pet) should not have been man-handled to such a degree to cause such terror and stress and as for muzzling - how ridiculouis. Ear plucking hurts especially for the 1st. time and a little bit at a time should be plucked out not chunks of hair all at once. If the pup was terrified to that degree then vet should have backed off and enlisted patience, treats and positive encouragement. The vet would have been better off to have a groomer or someone more competent than him to teach the owners how to pluck a wee bit at a time at their own home so it becomes as routine as brushing. I would be out for blood from this imcompetent moron.

[Rgeurts]

Originally Posted by t.pettet

Unbelievable! I would get a lawyer who deals with animal issues (ask your local spca for a reference) and sue the pants off this vet, advise the Vet Med. Assoc. and get financial compensation through the courts. A 4 mo. old pup (or any pet) should not have been man-handled to such a degree to cause such terror and stress and as for muzzling - how ridiculouis. Ear plucking hurts especially for the 1st. time and a little bit at a time should be plucked out not chunks of hair all at once. If the pup was terrified to that degree then vet should have backed off and enlisted patience, treats and positive encouragement. The vet would have been better off to have a groomer or someone more competent than him to teach the owners how to pluck a wee bit at a time at their own home so it becomes as routine as brushing. I would be out for blood from this imcompetent moron.

[Rgeurts]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Regardless of whether you think muzzling was appropriate, it is a common practice, and in court that will count. Your dog has been muzzled at least once, I don't know the circumstances. This dog was muzzled only once, and they don't have the option to just never do it again with this dog. Perhaps it is a practice that should be reviewed and better instruction given to vets on when to proceed with a muzzle and when to back off and approach from a different angle.

It is not common practice to muzzle a puppy. I would be willing to bet anything that none of the vets we deal with would approve. Muzzling is common practice on a dog that shows aggression or possible fear aggression, not a 4 month old puppy. Especially a small breed puppy. They are fragile to begin with. This vet should not be in practice.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Rgeurts

It is not common practice to muzzle a puppy. I would be willing to bet anything that none of the vets we deal with would approve. Muzzling is common practice on a dog that shows aggression or possible fear aggression, not a 4 month old puppy. Especially a small breed puppy. They are fragile to begin with. This vet should not be in practice.

I'll respectfully disagree, this may be an interesting read for you: http://webspace.cal.net/~pamgreen/muzzle_it.html. However, you will notice an important piece of information that the vet should have been aware of and failed on:

Originally Posted by Pam Green

NEVER use a type that restricts the dog's mouth from opening for more than a very few minutes and ALWAYS remain present and alert and ready to remove the muzzle instantly if necessary for the dog's breathing or to let him vomit.

In practice I would expect most dog vets have the opportunity to muzzle a dog now and then: the vet is a stranger, the dog may be ill, and uncomfortable or frightening procedures may be necessary. A vet and vet tech should be properly educated on muzzle safety, same as the use of any other tool. On safe use of the muzzle, I believe they were negligent.

[Rgeurts]

Anyone can "google" and find something to either agree or disagree with what they're saying. There's a lot of information and misinformation. Just because it's a posted link doesn't make it common practice. But what I do know is that is not common practice where I am. Nor should it be, and certainly not on a 4 month old puppy. What that vet did was negligent IMO, and I'm sure a lot of others as well. If you want to discuss it more, we can take it to PM and leave the clutter out of the thread

[SamIam]

No thanks. I'm just trying to help the OP understand what will be easier or more difficult to support in court if they choose to go that route.

[Goldfields]

I have had sheltie babies put under an anaesthetic to have retained canines removed at 5 1/2 months and 6 months of age, routine here I am sure amongst sheltie breeders. I do not allow my vets to traumatise even adult cattle dogs by trying to look in ears if the dog is uncomfortable with it or going to fight him. Such dogs, usually with a grass seed in the ear, get sedated, then the sedation reversed once he's finished the job. So, just wondering, could that be done for a pup that age? I don't know small breeds.
Also, I do agree with t.pettet that it's the owner who should learn how to pluck hair, then it can be done gradually, but the breeder should have told this owner how to do it, surely? It's beside the point when the OP said there were signs of infection though. Poor little dog, what a terrible death, and such a short life.

[SamIam]

Yes. The vet should have stopped and considered other options such as sedation. The owner may have been planning to have all grooming done by a professional groomer, and unfortunately at such a young age the puppy may not have already had that first important grooming appointment.

[Goldfields]

No, that's not what I'm saying, SIA. I think the owners should do things like that, not some stranger. Less trauma for the dog. Same as I learnt to trim claws (on cats and dogs), clean teeth etc., if I had a breed that needed hair taken out of the ear, I reckon I would learn that also. But, this little dog had an infection and people should be able to believe and trust that their vet will deal with the dog kindly, never that it would go through this sort of thing. It's a dreadful thing to have happened.

[o0paradigm0o]

Hello-

I just finished reading all your responses to my wife this morning. Very helpful responses and thank you very much to everyone for taking the time.

[marko]

I also wanted to offer you my deepest condolences.

Personally, I would, at the very least, bring this unfortunate event to the attention of the Board of Veterinarians. You can also ask if there have been other complaints filed against him and, perhaps, that may help you decide how to proceed.

I 100% agree with this logic. If this vet has a history of complaints against him/her - then yes I would likely pursue the matter further. If the vet has no such history (which would suggest to me that this is mostly an accident) I would likely not pursue it.

Again I'm so sorry to hear of this - sweet puppy

Sincerely
Marko

[Masha]

Originally Posted by Rgeurts

It is not common practice to muzzle a puppy. I would be willing to bet anything that none of the vets we deal with would approve. Muzzling is common practice on a dog that shows aggression or possible fear aggression, not a 4 month old puppy. Especially a small breed puppy. They are fragile to begin with. This vet should not be in practice.

I 100% agree with you!! Even our GSD is never muzzled at the vet's! A muzzle should be used only when and if appropriate. Unless the 4 month old puppy was showing aggression that required a muzzle, I dont see why one was used.... seems like the vet was just trying to make it 'easier' for him/herself....

As mentioned above, i would pursue both legal and veterinary board action because a dog should never die due to a routine check/procedure at the vet.

This needs to at least be investigated. If this doesn't get reported and investigated then who knows how many more incidents like that can happen. If the investigation determined that this was just a special occurance and all proper procedure was followed, fine, but I would still raise this as an issue to at least ensure that this gets investigated properly.

There is nothing 'normal' about this event.

I am very very sorry about your family's loss!! my heart goes out to you!

[t.pettet]

How much hair does a 4 month old pup have in their ears? Not very much!. God, even the schnauzers and poodles I get in to groom at the age of 6 mos. hardly have any worth plucking. If you find the right lawyer (search around) you have I feel a very good case against this vet, best of luck to you and your family and my condolences on your untimely loss.

[SamIam]

Paradigm - make sure in the autopsy photos are taken showing the inside of both ears so you have a record if needed for the board or for court.

[michellebell72]

I'm sorry for your loss. Does anybody know how to find out if a Vet has a complaint against them as this info is not available on the CVO website. I am about to file a complaint and was trying to find something on the Vet or clinic but really have no idea where to look. My dog didn't die during surgery, but had some problems, believe they read his chart wrong and gave meds not required ( an AED) and now are trying to cover up.

[flipgirl4]

Originally Posted by michellebell72

I'm sorry for your loss. Does anybody know how to find out if a Vet has a complaint against them as this info is not available on the CVO website. I am about to file a complaint and was trying to find something on the Vet or clinic but really have no idea where to look. My dog didn't die during surgery, but had some problems, believe they read his chart wrong and gave meds not required ( an AED) and now are trying to cover up.

Of course its not on the CVO website. Doing so would infringe upon the rights to confidentiality and would slander the clinic involved. Kind of unfair competition don't ya think? And it would not be very professional of the CVO to expose clinics which have had problems, whether or not they were liable. Think about if the clinic was found not guilty for .lack of a better term? And then the clinic's name is put on the CVO:s website on their blacklist? Not really fair. And then there is the client's right to confidentiality.

I read your thread and am truly very sorry for your loss. Phenobarb is sometimes used as a sedative but not sure why it was in your case. I think you have a good case to bring to the CVO. Have you looked into reporting your situation.?

[Koteburo]

This sound like a horror story to me too. I am truly sorry for your loss, how terrible for the pup.
All this muzzle discussion makes me wonder now who sets the "official" rules or guidelines in the use of muzzles when grooming or providing medical pet care?

Regardless of that and again I am really sorry that this has happened to your pup

[Rebecca Amanda]

I know exactly what u are going through. My 2 year old English Bulldog went in for his yearly rabies vaccine I held him in my arms for 45 minutes while he drowned in his own blood IN the vets office I spoke with several different vets they said all they had to do was give him a shot of epinephrine and he should have been ok. But the vet was to busy running people through like an,assembly line I kept asking someone to help and they just walked past. I filed charges with the state of Florida, the investigator found the vet both negligent and I can't remember the other charge but when it got to the court level he got a lawyer and they dismissed it. It hurt me so bad. I didn't want money I wanted him to be held accountable. He was a member of my family. My husband asked are you going to charge for the **** that killed my wife dog? The vet replied do you work for free? The vet even wrote in the chart that I had voiced concern on how Tank was breathing but he wasn't sure whether I stayed the entire time as he had other patients to take care of that was 4 years ago and I miss my boy so much. I feel your loss and I don't know what state your in but I was told that in Florida dogs are just considered property.so it wasn't taken seriously. My heart goes out to you