Collars - to prong or not

[Dracko]

My Dracko is my first experience with owning a dog. Initially I thought that caging a dog was cruel and the idea of a pronged collar was torture.

But.....after he started suffering from separation anxiety I got a big crate and he was in it when no one was home. Never more than 3 hours and we worked up to build up the time he spent in it. In the end, I only used it for less than 3 months. After he got the message that when he is alone he is to rest, he stopped getting in to things and I have never had another problem in all these years leaving him alone. The crate is long gone.

And, during his 2nd crack at obedience training it was suggested I use a pronge collar. I didn't think I could do that. I decided to give it a shot. Boy did he listen. Easily and quickly. I barely had to actually use the collar once it was on him. He knew what it meant. During that training period I was able to discontinue the use of the pronged collar and he retained the lessons he learned. It was almost like he just needed to get the message to pay attention to me.

As a GS he has a lot of fur on his neck so I know the pronges weren't right on his skin. I might have been more hesitant with a different breed but I have to say that I see the value of them when used correctly. I was in a situation where a trainer was able to show me how to use it properly.

I have to say, people who put those chock collars on their dogs and allow their dogs to pull still bother me. They don't know how to use them and shouldn't have them on their animal. I guess like with anything, in uneducated hands the potential for something to be harmful is there.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

Masha, LMPG originally commented on how people would be impressed seeing her walking 2 or 3 pits and a rottie, all behaving well. I was impressed by that till I had my first glimpse of the prong collar. It doesn't scare me, what a silly idea, but I query whether it scares the dog into obeying? It's a case of love the dogs, hate the collar.

no it doesn't scare the dog into obeying,,if you read the information i posted you would have seen exactly how it functions..i will expalin yet again..the part the leash attaches to is a martingale mechanism,,the collar can only tighten a couple inches,,thus creating a pressure similar to another dog correcting a pup..you DO NOT yank on or haul on the leash you basically let the collar tighten slightly and the dog will refrain from pulling since it thinks momma is correcting it.

Yes i got my information right on it being banned in victoria. here you can check for yourself. http://www.specialistcanines.com/blo...orian-gov.html

as for my use of a prong,,my golden is well over 100lbs,,my wife is 5ft tall and doesn't have the experience with dogs that i do,,,i prefered knowing when i was working out of town both my wife and my dogs were safe.

As for LMPG,,you have based your opinion on a collar by its look without doing any hands on research,,,similar to people basing their opinion on the breeds of dogs she owns by what the media portrays them to be..I AM QUITE willing to admit the government of my province is totally wrong because i have knowledge and experience on the breed..how bout you give the collar the same consideration.

[TeriM]

Riley's regular collar is a martingale but I have no problem using the pinch in times of high stimulation (walking with his very hyper brother, walking in very busy street areas etc.). When I first began using one I booked a lesson with our trainer and we had a private session. I have since discovered this version of the prong which I love because there is no choke portion:



I must admit to being bothered when I see people who obviously don't have a clue using the collar (misplaced etc) and especially if I see this being used on a tied up dog. On the other hand if I am looking at a bright side ... at least this means that some dogs might be walked instead of people just giving up and never taking out their dog .

I really dislike how some people seem to see a pinch collar and assume that means that the handler is a harsh handler. I use a pinch because that is the option that works best when I need extra help (have tried halti, body harness etc and they freak my dog out) but I still use very positive based training methods and continually work on training. It doesn't help me train my 110lb dog when he can physically overpower me and get whatever he wants.

[marko]

I agree with you Teri, I know a few people that use them and I have nothing but respect for them as pet owners.
LMPG - I sure hope you don't go as well.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Luvmypitgirls

To those of you that came to my defense in the thread where I was basically attacked and called a liar I want to thank you.
To those of you, that prefer to pass judgement, go ahead.
I have always tried to encourage and give good advice on Pets. I have always tried to give support where needed.
I have never passed judgement on anyones dogs by their choice of training or training equipment.
I fully regret posting my river pics now, what was a joyous time with my pack has been turned into something ugly and untrue.
It was bad enough being insulted by my choice of collar but then to see people say prongs are for basically weak pack leaders, or for ppl that don't have time and such...seriously c'mon I'm a stay home mom my dogs are with me constantly and I am always working with them.
This is ridiculous, and I'm really hurt by these comments.
I have spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours working with my dogs and rescues, ....wow whatever....I'm done.
Thanks to all of you that have shared your support and kindness with me, I consider many of you to be friends, and I will be eternally grateful for what I have learned here and the kinship shared.
Dog bless.
Catie...aka LMPG.

This makes me very sad. Please do not even consider leaving. This site would not be the same without your stories, your pictures, you.

Originally Posted by Luvmypitgirls

Btw, for many reasons I want you to know you are one of my heros.

Thank you. Right back at you mf.

[Winston]

Interesting fact found on Google..

Study of Prong Collars in Germany
(Information about study taken from an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar)

•100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
•The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
•Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
•Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma

LMPG

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

You know, LMPG, you have said how loveable your pits are, how they'd lick you to death and I am not doubting that, I simply queried the need for the use of a collar like that if they are so pleasant? If you are educating a rescue, fair enough, although here in Victoria I guess they do it without a prong, assuming Aslan did her homework right and they are banned. There again, I don't know if Pits are banned also. Googling for info is so slow if you are on dial up.

A choke collar/slip collar can do far worse damage than a prong collar can. Please do some research. You might be surprised what you can find. I used to be on dial up too and did plenty of googling.

http://www.fsas.ca/DogInfo/Training/Slip_Collar.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Dog-Train...pulls-time.htm


14+, you are saying that LMPG's dogs are well behaved because of the prong collar.

I did? Y'know, I get a little when people put words in my mouth. Makes me wonder what they've been reading. I guess it's more of that between the lines thing. I said no such thing. What I said was the LMPG has done her research. That to me makes a wonderful pet owner and trainer. I know from reading LMPG's threads and the stories she tells about her dogs and the dogs she has helped rescue and rehome that she has a heart of gold and would never do anything to hurt any animal. That includes using a collar that may do damage to the dogs. Therefore - she has done her research to find out what collar is the most effective and will not cause damage to the dog. I believe that, in my eyes, makes LMPG a fantastic trainer.


Mine are well behaved on a correction collar, trained gently, and I explained my collars only to make it clear there are no harsh corrections.

That's wonderful. So you have obviously done your research too. You have found out that slip collars work for what you want your dogs to do. I'm glad you have found something that works well for you. Not everyone wants to use something that can/will cause that much damage to a dog if used improperly.

I won't be offended because you think they are nasty and aggressive.

Again - those words. I didn't say I thought they were nasty and aggressive. I said that is the impression you have given us with the stories you have told about them fighting. The cattle dogs that are owned by other members here seem to not have those aggressive tendencies. I guess they have to be bred that way in order to have "that "a suspicious glint in the eye is a characteristic of the breed"". Still have some problems with why people want to breed aggression into dogs. But that's my problem and I will live with it.


I don't try to tell you they are everyone's friend. They were bred to guard stockmens' animals and gear, and work rough cattle, and how many breeds have it written into their Standard that "a suspicious glint in the eye is a characteristic of the breed"? They demand respect, but in the Standard it also states that they must be amenable to handling in the ring. In all my years of owning and showing them, not one of mine has tried to bite a judge, or a vet , but in the wrong hands, yes, unfortunately, well, you know what happens. Unlike you, my friend with the Wolfhound understands this breed and apologised for her dog going where it shouldn't, and our boy was good only giving a warning snap at it.
The point I was making is that if people want a breed to be liked, it doesn't do a lot for the image to see them in those big ugly collars.

Personally I think the prong collar looks like a marvelous piece of jewelry. I guess much like your gold plated slip collars look to you. I sure would not judge a dog just by the collar it's wearing.

Aslan, Goldens do fine on a correction collar here , in fact they are great obedience dogs. I doubt if our Premier(of the State, not Prime Minister of the country) would have had much to do with banning the prong collar really. The main reason our State is ahead of others at times in banning things is due to the fact that Hugh Wirth, who was and may still be, head of the RSPCA, resides here and has a lot of public support. He may also have the Premier's support too I guess, and good luck to him if he does.

It would be amazing if people would try something new out without out and out saying it's bad for you. I can remember people saying when computers came out they would never catch on too.

[Luvmypitgirls]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

Masha, LMPG originally commented on how people would be impressed seeing her walking 2 or 3 pits and a rottie, all behaving well. I was impressed by that till I had my first glimpse of the prong collar. It doesn't scare me, what a silly idea, but I query whether it scares the dog into obeying? It's a case of love the dogs, hate the collar.

No Goldfields you did more than query about my choice of dog collars, you were insulting and snide.
You seem to think that what works for you , or your opinion is the only one that matters.
I don't care about your aggressive dog, if using a choke is what works best for you great, more power to you, but do not judge me on my choice. If you wouldn't approach my dogs because of their collars, then you are exactly the kind of person I don't want anywhere near my dogs.
I have a friend that uses big leather studded collars on his dog, and his dog is the sweetest Pit ever, every bit as amazing as "Daddy" was from Ceasar Milan. People have never said anything to me about the collars in a negative way, it's strictly "breed issue". I have had ppl ask me about the collars instead of being ignorant and judging. I have also stopped people I seen using them improperly and taught them how to use them.
Like I said, obedience/professional dog trainers, handlers use them and recommend them. So I guess we are all wrong eh?
Prong collars are not against the animal welfare act, if they were they wouldn't be sold legally in petstores, and used in obedience training.
To suggest I would do anything illegal or hurt my dogs is nothing short of ignorant, do me a favor worry about your dogs, don't worry about mine, because mine aren't fighting and having issues with aggression.
And until you come meet my pack in person, keep your judgement to yourself, thanks.

[Luvmypitgirls]

Originally Posted by Winston

Interesting fact found on Google..

Study of Prong Collars in Germany
(Information about study taken from an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar)

•100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
•The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
•Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
•Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma

LMPG

Winston, I'm blowing a million smooches your way, thank you for posting that.

[Goldfields]

TeriM, I have no doubt at all that the collar you pictured would be banned here. And no, Aslan, I have no need to use such collars,and they are illegal in Victoria. I do know that if I could use them, I would never consider it for a minute. Height and experience have little to do with it, you see child handlers here doing a splendid job of handling big dogs, dogs taught to heel properly.

[Luvmypitgirls]

Originally Posted by Masha

A dog may get a long well with animals and people but may have a high prey drive, or may be scared of something like bikes or cars. That doesn't make a dog 'unpleasent'.

If people see a prong and get scared, thats their own ignorance.

Why should one live their life worrying about what others may think? who cares what others think... ?

Thank you for your kind words Masha, truly appreciated.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

TeriM, I have no doubt at all that the collar you pictured would be banned here. And no, Aslan, I have no need to use such collars,and they are illegal in Victoria. I do know that if I could use them, I would never consider it for a minute. Height and experience have little to do with it, you see child handlers here doing a splendid job of handling big dogs, dogs taught to heel properly.

Again - total ignorance to ban something such as a collar without trying it. Too bad they didn't try bringing in some experts and seeing how it worked first.

[TeriM]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

TeriM, I have no doubt at all that the collar you pictured would be banned here. And no, Aslan, I have no need to use such collars,and they are illegal in Victoria. I do know that if I could use them, I would never consider it for a minute. Height and experience have little to do with it, you see child handlers here doing a splendid job of handling big dogs, dogs taught to heel properly.

Just to clarify, the prongs on the collar shown are not sharp.

Goldfields, I really am generally a live and let live person who embraces a lot of different training methods but I have to say that comments like that are really not helpful. It sounds totally condescending. Lots of research exsists that shows choke collars are extremely damaging to a dog's neck structure with particular attention to the trachea area.

I would have a lot more respect for your argument if you were only advocating flat collars and not a choke. A dog trained on a choke is often (not always) trained using force and collar corrections. Corrections are after all what the choke collar is designed for. That dog of course might develop into having a beautiful heeling technique that any one including a child can handle in a ring but the question is what damage or corrections were undertaken to get there?

I would rather stand by my pinch collar which I know is humane (have placed on myself many times). It works because instead of a steady pull as per a regular flat collar the sensation to the dog is like leaning into an uneven, uncomfortable item which then causes the dog to self correct. I would compare it to a person sitting on a nice even cushy surface or sitting on a pointy rock. Which would you prefer? Of course the cushy surface which is essential how the pinch would feel if the dog is not putting pressure against it by pulling.

I also strive to continue my training with Riley. I have done beginner, advanced obedience and serveral tracking classes. I attend a weekly outdoor class and have recently enrolled in classes to try to do rally obedience. We have a great relationship that continues to get better.

[Luvmypitgirls]

I have also had Pits that I didn't need to use a prong on. I do not use the Prong 24/7, only during certain activities and training excercises. Again if they were illegal I wouldn't be using them. I'm happy that you don't feel you need to use one...but stop thinking that chokes are the be all end all of collars.
Like I said which you seem to ignore..I've seen a dog die from a choke collar, I have never seen a dog die from a prong.
I have worked with dogs that don't need them, and plenty that do.
Why do you insist on being so blatantly ignorant to what others are saying? Oh and my dogs heel perfectly as well, trust me your digs don't go unnoticed, tell me Goldfields do you also advocate for the genocide of Pitbulls? Just wondering, because many of your comments tend to lean that direction.

[mastifflover]

Height and experience have little to do with it, you see child handlers here doing a splendid job of handling big dogs, dogs taught to heel properly.

I have to say that is really not a comparison a dog in a show ring is not a dog on a busy street or in a park etc. You are comparing a dog in a controlled enviroment to a dog in a real life situation. A lot of the dogs we are dealing with are rescues. My first mastiff weighed 200 pounds and had a huge prey drive. A choke chain would have only caused him harm and I wanted a correction not a method that could hurt him. He heeled fine but his prey drive would kick in. You try and hold back a dog that size if he tries to bolt ahead.

[Luvmypitgirls]

Originally Posted by mastifflover

Height and experience have little to do with it, you see child handlers here doing a splendid job of handling big dogs, dogs taught to heel properly.

I have to say that is really not a comparison a dog in a show ring is not a dog on a busy street or in a park etc. You are comparing a dog in a controlled enviroment to a dog in a real life situation. A lot of the dogs we are dealing with are rescues. My first mastiff weighed 200 pounds and had a huge prey drive. A choke chain would have only caused him harm and I wanted a correction not a method that could hurt him. He heeled fine but his prey drive would kick in. You try and hold back a dog that size if he tries to bolt ahead.

mastifflover, I know you are only trying, but you know I truly don't think she/he (sorry don't know Goldfields sex) gets it. I give up, it's obvious this person isn't willing to consider anyones opinion but it's own.

[mastifflover]

It is kind of like hitting your head against a wall. Glad your here

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by Luvmypitgirls

I have also had Pits that I didn't need to use a prong on. I do not use the Prong 24/7, only during certain activities and training excercises.
Glad to hear that of course, and you are welcome to use whatever you like.

Again if they were illegal I wouldn't be using them.
What would you use?

I'm happy that you don't feel you need to use one...but stop thinking that chokes are the be all end all of collars.

Why do I have to stop thinking that? Because it's not your opinion? It is the most widely accepted collar here, my dogs give me no trouble wearing them, so sorry, I don't understand the insistance that I mustn't prefer them.

Like I said which you seem to ignore..I've seen a dog die from a choke collar, I have never seen a dog die from a prong.

I don't ignore anything actually. Why didn't you just explain how or why it died?

I have worked with dogs that don't need them, and plenty that do.
Why do you insist on being so blatantly ignorant to what others are saying?
Beg your pardon? That's very rude. I don't like prong collars, end of story. I believe our RSPCA would have sound reasons for having them banned too.


Oh and my dogs heel perfectly as well, trust me your digs don't go unnoticed,
and if they did without the prong I would be very impressed


tell me Goldfields do you also advocate for the genocide of Pitbulls? Just wondering, because many of your comments tend to lean that direction.

Years ago, when they were first introduced, I thought they would regret ever letting pit bulls into this country, and judging by the bans, obviously they do. But no, while I wouldn't want to own one, I'm not for killing them. With responsible owners I'm sure they are okay. It's never a breed's fault when they get a bad reputation, just careless, irresponsible owners.

[Luvmypitgirls]

Originally Posted by mastifflover

It is kind of like hitting your head against a wall. Glad your here

Thank you my friend. I received a pm that made me pause and reconsider, I was just so steamed...but I've made to many friends here to up and leave, I refuse to let this person get under my skin any longer

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Luvmypitgirls

Thank you my friend. I received a pm that made me pause and reconsider, I was just so steamed...but I've made to many friends here to up and leave, I refuse to let this person get under my skin any longer

I am so glad you have decided to stay. We would miss your wonderful presence here.
I think seeing as we seem to be going around and around in circles on this thread that it might as well have a painless death and be let go. It would be the gentle thing to do. prong thread.

[Luvmypitgirls]

Goldfields, how do you know my dogs don't heel perfectly without one? Again with the snideness and don't go off on me about rudeness, it seems to me that rude is your forte.

What would I use if prongs were illegal, well I certainly wouldn't use a choke, gold plated or otherwise, but again I wouldn't be so pompous and arrogant to tell you what to use.

So it's ok for you to voice your displeasure with prongs, but not ok for anyone to voice their concern with chokes...rather hypocritical dontcha think. Sorry I don't understand the insistence that I mustn't prefer prong collars, what because your opinion differs from mine and millions of others that use prongs.

Why didn't I explain why or how it died, because it was a very trumatic incident which I went thru as a teen when a stepfather decided to murder my dog. Besides, who are you that I should have to justify myself anyway. Also I've worked with dogs that come into rescue with severe neck and spine injuries from people that used choke collars, that sways my opinion greatly.

You don't like prong collars, and if you had said that I would've respected your opinion but instead you make arrogant judging remarks towards me, and imply things about my dogs that aren't true. You haven't seen my pack in action, you haven't a clue how my dogs behave with or without their prongs on, so get off your high horse.

Let me assure you, I am an extremely experienced handler of bully breeds. Also, Pitbull bans are based on fear mongering, if you ever decided to do some real research on the breed you would know that in most attacks that are deemed Pitbull attacks, weren't Pitbull attacks whatsoever. But the media doesn't retract wrongful blame on Pits, because its easier to sensationalize.
I am a great guardian of the breed, I have worked with some of the most brutal cases you could imagine, dogs so traumatized and fearful, who are now living in wonderful forever homes being ambassadors to the breed.
So once again, until you come meet my pack in person do not assume to know what my pack is capable of with or without their prongs. Your arrogance and snideness astound me.

[Luvmypitgirls]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

I am so glad you have decided to stay. We would miss your wonderful presence here.
I think seeing as we seem to be going around and around in circles on this thread that it might as well have a painless death and be let go. It would be the gentle thing to do. prong thread.

14+, you are so right, I've said what I have to say and I will say no more.
I'm not her/his first target I won't be the last.

[Blackbear]

This thread has run its course and will now be closed.