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Old June 8th, 2005, 11:30 AM
Vas Vas is offline
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Angry Are we eating tortured animals?

Have we ever questioned ourselves what we are eating and how meat or eggs come to our plates?
I was struck when I saw a video on a street (someone had a portable TV on his chest) showing a horrible "living situation" of commercial farm animals being treated so badly that I wasn't able to continue watching it. Pigs were in stinky places one above the other, not enough place to move or even stand, agonizing beef attached to ropes upside down being pierced by knives, blood flowing in streams, chiken with cut beaks, etc...I couldn't believe this to be true! I though there should be a minimum care for these animals for providing food to our table!

So my question are: Are commercial farm animals treated in the same way in the US? If yes, don't/shouldn't they get the same punishements as those who mistreat their dog, pig, horse or a bird in "Animal cops" on Animal Planet? Or is it an exlusion?
At what extent keeping animals (even if they are for food) in horrible conditions and torturing them is legal in North America?

It makes me loose my appetite for meat...


P.S.: That's why I'm having frog legs for dinner! I hope they were not tortured!
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Old June 8th, 2005, 11:44 AM
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yes..........yes they are.


sadly i think there's different rules for pets as opposed to "live stock". when there;s money to be made on animals nobody gives a ****. There are animals tho that have been raised humanely. I think those are in the organic section at the grocery store.

My friend recently turned vegetarian based on those issues. I'm still debating.... Maybe one day i'll have my own farm with happy animals
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Old June 8th, 2005, 12:01 PM
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im kinda torn on this part,


I was vegetarian, but diddnt do well as one, i missed out on some nutrition i should ahve been getting and became anemic,

i really prefer not to eat meat but feel I should to keep healthy

that said I do feel very strong for the animals

but even before all the modern conveniences were around people ate meat.

we ahve since day one, so i beleive its kind of a natual order to things.

that doesnt mean torturing the critters or making them suffer is ok its 100% wrong.

but killing them for food, cows etc i dont feel that morally offended by.

if that makes sence?

Eleni
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Old June 8th, 2005, 12:02 PM
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Yes, pretty much all the meat we humans eat are factory farmed animals - living in filthy, unsanitary, disgusting conditions.

Most, if not all of these animals never see the light of day and they are pumped full of growth hormones and antibiotics - which is in part causing so many illnesses in humans. Like you said, the animals are tortured, for instance chickens have their beaks cut or burned off so they can't peck themselves or each other. When farm animals are taken to slaughter they are still alive throughout the horrific process.

It's horrible and I have been trying to take steps toward a vegan lifestyle. I also buy eggs and chickens from a local farmer. However, I don't think I could ever raise my own animals to slaughter and I really hope to be completely vegan one day.

"The Pig Who Sang To The Moon" is an excellent book into the world of livestock and factory farming. Although it was difficult to read it has helped me take steps away from meat, altough I have to admit that it is still part of my diet. I hope I have the willpower to change that, someday soon!
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Old June 8th, 2005, 12:04 PM
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Unfortunatly this kind of thing does happen. There are plenty of videos like the one decribed above, on peta.org. They're horrible and tissues are definitely needed when watching them!

My friend has been a vegetarian for about 4-5 years because of issues like these. I would like to be, but sadly I love the taste of chicken and can't rench myself away from it.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 12:04 PM
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well, the cows upside down being drained of blood is kinda required and nothing you can do to avoid that. The blood needs to be drained ASAP (sometimes they kill first, sometimes that is how they kill them) as the blood coagulates and causes the meat to go bad. So, all the blood is drained out.

I eat meat and those images don't bother me at all. I studied anthropology in university. I feel that it is totally natural and fine to eat meat, kill animals and use all their body parts. Hot dogs don't urk me at all, even if they are the "lesser used" parts of their bodies. I know how to trap and kill and skin and gut an animal if needed, and I wouldn't feel any remorse or shame doing it.

People eat meat all the time but when they are told how it is done, they just can't beleive it. Well...how did you think it was done? People prefer to live in the dark and not wonder how their food is kept or killed.

Keep in mind that many activists will find the most grewsome horrible pics to show, even if they don't apply locally. Many of those videos are taped internationally where animal cruelty laws aren't as strict. I only buy Canadian products where I know what the laws are and I understand the processes for keeping and killing the animals. For the most part, Canada is great. They still keep a lot of animals in cages...like chickens and pork. The farms that supply Maple Leaf pork don't though (just so you know).
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Old June 8th, 2005, 12:06 PM
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Well, I come from a small town where there were many farmers and I can guarantee that none of them were like that. I have been to A LOT of farms. There are always fields for the cows and horses to be in, never tied up in a barn like what you are explaining. I don't know, maybe it's just around here that people actually care about their livestock, well that is while they own them.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 12:17 PM
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Unfortunately, PETA would have you believe that all animals are tortured and killed inhumanely. Those are pretend cows, don't you know, just so you THINK they get to see daylight. For a while, I recall hearing they were saying that the animals were tortured because it was believed the meat was more tender from a frightened animal.

That being said, I do think it happens, unfortunately. But I also believe it is natural for us to eat meat. It is impossible to find in any one place in this world where all the nutrients are required for us to survive are in nature without eating meat. (I'm obviously discounting importing). To me, that tells me that it is natural to eat meat. My sister is vegetarian, and I totally understand her reasoning. However, I need meat, and while I agree that it isn't right to treat the animals inhumanely, I also think that some of the special interest groups blow it WAY out of proportion.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 12:19 PM
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That's exactly why I'm a veggie boy and have been for 8 years....I saw some terrible things being done to animals during my travels and it broke my heart.

Though I must confess it was difficult at first and it took 4 months to do - stopped eating red meat - waited 2 months - stopped eating chicken - waited 2 months - stopped eating fish.

Fact of the matter is we must kill to live, it's just a matter of what we choose to kill - Personally I'd rather kill a soybean.

EDITED - (I do stand corrected on my last phrase - There are those (like the Jains for example) that wait for the food to die naturally (ie the apple that falls from the tree). Therefore we don't NEED to kill to live.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raingirl
People eat meat all the time but when they are told how it is done, they just can't beleive it. Well...how did you think it was done? People prefer to live in the dark and not wonder how their food is kept or killed.
I'm not against killing or eating meat itself. I'm against living conditions that animals must be in. Pigs and cows for example are quite intelligent creatures and it's not their nature to be in stinky places, eat mashed carcass and never be able to move in their lifetime expect for the slaugther day. If it is accepted then I don't understand why private farm owners are not allowed and are punished for keeping their animals in stinky conditions in US? I see no difference!

Quote:
Originally Posted by raingirl
Keep in mind that many activists will find the most grewsome horrible pics to show, even if they don't apply locally. Many of those videos are taped internationally where animal cruelty laws aren't as strict.
I'm not sure about it, but hope that not all of these images come from local farms...
Dispite that I'm not a vegetarian. Meat provides a good source of protein and energy and I don't know if I could to not eat meat.

Last edited by Vas; June 8th, 2005 at 12:37 PM.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 01:19 PM
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Hahah. Have you ever BEEN in a pig pen? Pigs are the smelliest stinkyest animals EVER! I worked on a farm once, and we cleaned the pig pen out daily, and it still stank like you wouldn't beleive.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raingirl
Hahah. Have you ever BEEN in a pig pen? Pigs are the smelliest stinkyest animals EVER! I worked on a farm once, and we cleaned the pig pen out daily, and it still stank like you wouldn't beleive.
There are people who even keep pigs as pets at home. They learn tricks just like dogs, are clean and houstrained.
Yes, I have been in a pig pen.It's human being that keeps pigs in stinky conditions and then blames pigs for being stinkiest animals ever.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 01:41 PM
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hmm i worked on a farm where the pig pen was cleaned daily and it was still dirty.


seriously if the critter lives outside and rolls in the mud to stay cool its gonna stink and be dirty, and doesnt mean the critter is unhappy, just means hes stinky and like to roll around in muck

i tend to agree with raingirl on this one
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Old June 8th, 2005, 01:45 PM
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I'm assuming there is some basis to the expression "Happy as a pig in..." well, you know.

And I've been in plenty of pig pens. Most of them didn't have the bacon variety living there, though.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 01:52 PM
Vas Vas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleni
hmm i worked on a farm where the pig pen was cleaned daily and it was still dirty.


seriously if the critter lives outside and rolls in the mud to stay cool its gonna stink and be dirty, and doesnt mean the critter is unhappy, just means hes stinky and like to roll around in muck

i tend to agree with raingirl on this one
Yes I agree that pigs have to keep them cool because they can't sweat like people do . And they prefer water to mud, but usually water isn't an option. Pigs can be very clean animals when given choice. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/pigs/smart.html

http://www.gan.ca/animals/pigs.en.html

Last edited by Vas; June 8th, 2005 at 02:39 PM.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Eleni Eleni is offline
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ok excuse my bluntness here, but are they to provide a sterile swimming pool?


critters roll in the mud in nature all the time, and no one is upset about that, and when some pigs do it its upsetting?

i dont get it, ive never seen a pig unhappy about sitting in mug, i mean granted they cant say "hey can i ahve a shower over here'

but the realisim of it is, how can you provide a ver clean environment for pigs?

as pets its possible yes, but these pigs are for the slaughter, to go to supermarket shelves and such

farmers are by no means rich and providing the pigs with a spotless environment would be a huge waste on resources

I kow the farm i worked on they had trouble with water supply constantly, their irrigation pools were forever drying up, they would never have been able to use more of that then necessary on the pigs and not risk the rest of the farm

and this was jsut a small scale farm, i cant imagine how bigger farmers do it


Eleni
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Old June 8th, 2005, 02:12 PM
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The pigs at the farm I worked at were for the family only...they had about 6. The LOVED being sprayed with the hose, which of course was in their outdoor pen, which of course turned the dirt to mud, and it was hilarious watching them wriggle in the mud after! They were SOOOO happy. Of course, a large portion of that mud is their poop (no matter what you do to scoop, a lot stays there) so the wet mud stank to high heaven!!!
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Old June 8th, 2005, 02:12 PM
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I eat organic free range everything. I refuse to eat animals that have lived out their lives in torture chambers.

Aside from the cruelty factor it's also unhealthy for 'us' to consume meat, dairy, eggs, poultry from contaminated sources and animals that have been injected with hormones, antibiotics.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 02:16 PM
Vas Vas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleni
ok excuse my bluntness here, but are they to provide a sterile swimming pool?

Eleni
Nobody said that pigs should be provided swiming pools at farms! All they should be provided is food and a clean place to stand, lay down and at least to walk a little bit. If you don't rememeber, in the post I was talking about pigs that are one on another, not able to move.

And to say that pigs are the dirtiest animals ever is not true.

It's like to say that elephants, water buffaloes (as well as many other animals) are dirty because they cool down in mud and to protect themselves from flies and other insects. By the way even horses sometimes roll in mud! :-)

Last edited by Vas; June 8th, 2005 at 02:33 PM.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 02:22 PM
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You will be happy that there are some GOOD farms out there. I worked on one as a kid. Mostly cattle. The cattle was allowed to be oustide whenever they wanted, except for at night, or in bad weather. The owner had cattle dogs, but the cattle came to the barn upon hearing him whistle. They were given plenty of food, stalls clean daily, and they were even rubbed down, and pet daily. Although the mojority of them were dariy cows, they still provide food for us.

By the way, this famrer supplies milk for land o lakes. And they do inspect the barn when they come to get the milk.....
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Old June 8th, 2005, 02:38 PM
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you missed my point,


pigs get dirty, and that doesnt mean they dislike it,

look at what raingirl mentioned, when the pigs she was around were hosed off they got muddy, their pens got muddy and they loved it.


as for not ahving room to move, the pigs i was around had planty of room

the pen was big enough for 20 pigs, yet there was something like 5-10 in the pen


its was a small farm.


I dont agree with places that are inhumane, ie: dont give room enough for them to be happy and thrive

but i dont think the pigs getting muddy is necissarily inhumane, its natural, that is unless the pen is not cleaned on a regular basis


Eleni
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Old June 8th, 2005, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleni
but i dont think the pigs getting muddy is necissarily inhumane, its natural, that is unless the pen is not cleaned on a regular basis


Eleni
I understand what you want to say very well.
Of course that pigs getting muddy is not inhumane! Like for many other animals it's necessery to keep them cool and to protect themselves from insects. I say that in general pigs are clean animals. They like to maintain separate eating, sleeping and defecation areas. So it's not natural for them to eat and sleep in their poop.
That's all. Let's finish with it.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marko
Fact of the matter is we must kill to live, it's just a matter of what we choose to kill - Personally I'd rather kill a soybean.
LOL marko. I've heard that the most strict vegetarians don't even eat "living vegetables", for example, only when an apple falls from the tree and "chose to die" that they'd eat it.

I once watched a home video of slaughtering a pig, it was not pretty: the pig was screaming and twisting when they carried him to the slaughering bench, but suddenly calmed down when they pour water over him as he knew what was coming. He didn't even make a sound when the butcher stuck the knife in his heart (I think). When the butcher was all done and hung the dead carcass on the wall, it was as if the dead pig was still smiling. That image got stuck with me ever since.

However I must confess that I'm a meat lover, I love everything about meat: the color, the texture, the smell and the taste, although I'd like to become a vegan someday (healthier for me as I have hypertension), I'm not ready to stop eating meat just yet. I guess it's like everything else: realization first, actions to follow, not that I'm trying to make any excuse for myself, I'm just not ready to give up meat now.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 03:20 PM
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I haven't eaten meat in seven years.I felt that every life was precious it doesn't matter if it is a cow, a dog, a horse or human.I think before people say it's okay to kill certain animals for consumption but not others they should see a pig playing with a ball,feel a calf licking thier face or even watch a chicken enjoying a dust bath in the sun.These animals enjoy thier lives every bit as much as a dog or cat and the idea of killing either of these animals for consumption is unthinkable for most people.A friend of mine does farm rescue and the stories behind her animals would make your skin crawl and yet despite coming from horrible situations her animals are friendly and normal(sound familiar all those in dog rescue?)They have the same abilities to forgive if given a chance.We have chickens here some came from a factory farm,when we got them they couldn't stand up from being in wire cages,they were missing almost all of thier feathers and had been debeaked ,that is what a chicken from a small factory farm looks like the larger ones are worse.Using a woodchipper is an accepted way of disposal of live sick birds,I guess it is quick and painless,but what makes that an acceptable way of killing a chicken but not a cat?
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Old June 8th, 2005, 03:26 PM
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I too think PETA uses the most extreme videos to get their message across. They raise a lot of money but do not put much of it into actual animal care so I am inclined to question the cerdibility of a group like that - and alas, they hurt other associations who through the hard work of unpaid volunteers, actually do take in needy animals.

My dad grew up on a farm and I know many farmers. Not one of them would ever deliberately hurt their animals. Of course, that does not mean that some bad guys are out there - they are and the larger an outfit is, the less they seem to care about their animals.

I guess what bothers me most about groups like PETA is that their supporters tend to be better off economically than most and the ones I have encountered protesting get "preachy" over a topic they barely understand. For ex, I met one young woman demonstrating at KFC over the treatment of chikens - a worthy cause needless to say. BUT those tactics do attain media coverage but they reach primarily the already converted.

I am not a vegetarian but I never eat beef (I actually had a cousin die of CJD Variant -it was a horrible horrible death and I live and expereince death on an almost weekely basis and have seen some bad ones. And yes, there is such an entity as a "good death" - peaceful, home in bed surrounded by family and not in pain. All the deaths I see are too young of course but there are ways to mitigate the pain and the difficulties associated with dying. A bad death is one where despite the best pain meds, one is still uncomfotable, has trouble breathing and requires assistance with almost every bodily function. I am reminded of Dylan Thomas' infamous words when I think of the term "bad death". Many in those circumstance do rage against the dying of the light. As long as I live, I hope never again to see anyone endure what my cousin did - Variant CJD (unlike its rare naturally occuring cousin) attacks adults in their prime and essentially turns their brains to mush. I saw a once vibrant woman - literally the life of the party - initially have difficulty walking and with some neurological functions. In the end, she recognized no one, was scared all the time (there is some degree of paranoia with the illness), was in pain in spite of the meds and her dignity had been robbed of her! The family was not permitted to bury her in a cemetery so even in death, she was permitted no dignity. So - I will never be eating beef again!

I do eat chicken and seafood (Not pork though, with the exception of bacon, sigh! ) but it has to be organic and I have to know the farmer if that's possible! I am fortunate in that I live in the Maritimes so I do know some organic farmers and thus can live in the way I choose.

I do realize for most people in western society, there is no way to know where one's meat came from and how it was handled and probably, given the work of The Canada Health Food Agency and the USDA, our meat is not all that safe nor does it come from animals well cared for. This means we need stronger legislation regarding farmers and their care of their animals!
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Old June 8th, 2005, 03:39 PM
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If I knew you all a few years back, and lived closer, I would sell you guys the eggs and chickens we sold. We never gave them anything that most farmers did. No steriods...... nothing...... And they were given the best care possible. They got fresh water 2-3 times daily, food twice daily, and were also able to wander the yard. Same way with the pheasents, and the turkey we had. My father couldn't stand being cruel to those guys. They were so wonderful to have around.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilith_rizel
If I knew you all a few years back, and lived closer, I would sell you guys the eggs and chickens we sold. We never gave them anything that most farmers did. No steriods...... nothing...... And they were given the best care possible. They got fresh water 2-3 times daily, food twice daily, and were also able to wander the yard. Same way with the pheasents, and the turkey we had. My father couldn't stand being cruel to those guys. They were so wonderful to have around.

It's encouraging to read that there are still small farms where animals are happy and well cared.

My family friends used to have a small farm. All animals had their names! I'm so missing fresh milk taste and homemade cheese....
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Old June 8th, 2005, 04:04 PM
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We had about 40-50 chickens, and about 20 pheasents. 5 or 6 chickens actually had names, being that those were the only ones we could tell apart from the rest. I enjoyed just sitting down bu the coop and watching them.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 04:15 PM
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My grandmother also had names for all her barnyard critters - so I kind of judge how well animals are cared for on the farm by whether or not they have names and are considered part of the family. For me, it is a bit like a gold standrd, lol

It also irks me on occasion that most of the protesters have no clue about the operation of a farm. They protest with their expensive designer clothes on ("no Logo" to the contrary) in front of a fast food place and most (not all) never take the time to meet farmers and get to know what it is like. You know the expression - never judge anyone till you've walked a mile in their shoes. That's how I feel about this issue.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 04:51 PM
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While watching animal cops last night, they rescued some pigs from horrible, and I mean HORRIBLE, conditions. The shelter worker stated a little known fact about pigs. They don't have sweat glands, therefore must roll in mud to cool off.

Pigs are extremely clean animals, and highly intelligent. If given the choice of a (pardon the pun) a pig stye or a clean, hay filled enclosure with some mud for wallowing, they would most definately choose the clean enclosure.
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