Sudden unexplained death

[cmjk1976]

On Friday, October 24th, my 6 month old dalmador puppy Celine went in for a routine surgery to be spade. The monitored her thru the operation and she woke up and was alert afterwards. She suddenly collapsed for no reason and passed away. The doctor did everything she could to revive her but she did not make it back. I was absolutely crushed when I got this phone call. The doctor did a necropsy and the results came back telling me that she was perfectly healthy, there was absolutely nothing wrong with her and no explanation for her death.

The doctor offered me a possible solution called "the third spot". Apparently this is a very rare outcome from anesthesia, she explained that some animals will store the anesthesia in an unknown place within their body. After the surgery the animal will wake up and be alert and fine, then suddenly the body will release this storage of anesthesia and the animal will collapse and be put back under. During this time there is no oxygen to the brain and after only a minuet the damage is irreversible and the animal can't be revived.

I don't know about anyone else but I find it hard to believe that a perfectly healthy 6 month old puppy could just pass away and there is no known explanation for it. I was wondering if anyone else has ever heard of this and could offer me more information to ease my mind. I don't feel like this is enough closure for me due to that fact that it can't be explained. If anyone has anything that could offer me any help on this I would appreciate it.

[hazelrunpack]

cmjk, I'm so sorry this happened to your little girl

Sometimes dogs do react badly to the anesthesia...though I don't know the exact mechanisms I do know that it can happen and there can be a bit of delay. :sad:

You did all you could--and it sounds like your vet did, too--but sometimes even your best is just not enough. I am so sorry for your loss.

Celine

[totallyhip]

Oh my gosh I am sooo soo sorry for your loss. Do you know what type of anesthsia they used? I know that with Boxers you can not use ACE or ACEPROMAZINE on them. As they are very sensitive to it tend to have problems breathing and affects the heart. I think there is another thread on here about it.

Celine

[Diamondsmum]

ohhh My goodness... unfortunately This happens..My moms cat was the same way. when she was spayd. a couple of years ago.:sad:

My heart goes out to you

[rainbow]

I am so very sorry to hear about the loss of your puppy. :sad: Incidents like this do not happen very often and you must be devastated.


Celine

[Hazmat]

I am very sorry for your loss. Unfortunatly any pet ( and any person) can have a really bad reaction to anethesia, it is in fact a poision.

Your Vet seems like she really cared and did everything in her power and then went an extra step.

i am very sorry

[Love4himies]

I am so sorry for your loss :sad: . I do know that anesthetic is dangerous even to humans and the best doctors and equipment can't save them. There was no way you could have known.

[MindysMom]

I'm so sorry for your loss. My parents miniature dachshund had a bad reaction to anesthetic - luckily he was okay but they had to be very careful when he needed to go under again. I hate when my guys have to be anethesized but sometimes it's necessary.

[cmjk1976]

Thank you for your kind responses, The odd thing that bothers me the most is that the doctor said it wasn't the anesthesia that she reacted to. They told me they tested her before hand and monitored her during the procedure. They told me she woke up just fine and had no bad reactions to the anesthesia at all. This is what confuses me the most. She keeps referring to this "third spot" it is some sort of medical term they use for anesthesia and I can't seem to find any reference to it anywhere on the web. I was hoping there was someone out there who has heard of this and could direct me to more information on it so that I can validate what the doctor is talking about. So far I have done numerous searches on different search engines and have come up with nothing. I am starting to believe the doctor is making up this "third spot" theory.

[Diamondsmum]

awwww I wonder if Dr. lee can possibly offer some insite? hopefully he will see this when he loggs on.

[Karin]

It happens to one in a thousand. I am sorry for your lose.
With any surgery there is a risk of this happening.

[babymomma]

I am very very sorry for your loss, i just cant imagine what your going through

I was so nervous about getting my girl spayed, but now, im sooo much more scared :sad: I only have 21 days left until she gets spayed :sad:

[danam314]

I don't have any answers, I just wanted to say that I am so, so sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you and your family. This just breaks my heart. Stay strong -Dana

[Bina]

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of Celine. How terrible.
Twenty years ago I had a 3 yr old female Bouvier spayed. She died 4 days later......it is rare.

[zomo]

So very sorry for your loss .

[rainbow]

Originally Posted by Diamondsmum

awwww I wonder if Dr. lee can possibly offer some insite? hopefully he will see this when he loggs on.

Good suggestion ....cmjk1976, you could pm Dr. Lee to ask his opinion.

[cmjk1976]

Does anyone know the user name of Dr. Lee so that I can contact him/her?

[Love4himies]

That is his user name. He usually responds quite quickly to any private messages sent to him.

[Love4himies]

If you don't have private message priviledges yet, I can do it for you.

[cmjk1976]

hmmm I am kinda new to this, I tried adding him to my contacts but it says the user name is not found

[Love4himies]

It is Dr Lee with no period. Look in your user CP to see if you have private message privledges yet, or at the upper right hand side of the screen in the "Welcome, ... box".

[Tundra_Queen]

I am so very sorry for your loss. :sad:

Debbie

[cmjk1976]

Thank you, I was not able to send him a private message but I was able to send him a visitor message.

[Love4himies]

I have sent Dr Lee a private message with a link to this thread. He is sooooo great.

[cmjk1976]

Thank you so much.

[BusterBoo]

I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your puppy. sweet baby, sometimes things happen that just can't be explained.

I hope Dr Lee will be able to give some insight into this "third spot". I know when my dogs are going to have any kind of surgery, I have to sign a consent form, which basically says the Vet will do everything they can, but that aneasthisia (sp?) can prove fatal.

I hope you find the answer...

[dlpipes]

Originally Posted by MindysMom

I'm so sorry for your loss. My parents miniature dachshund had a bad reaction to anesthetic - luckily he was okay but they had to be very careful when he needed to go under again. I hate when my guys have to be anethesized but sometimes it's necessary.

My baby Stuart had a bad reaction to his shots as well. Puffed up like a blowfish. Took him back in for emergency treatment and he is fine now.

I did have a cat that died after a c-section. I went to check on her and the babies were suckeling her and she was cold. This was about an hour after surgery. I guess I just thought it was from the c-section not the anethesia. but I am thinking now it could have been. And yes, I bottle fed all for of the babies and still have three of them,they are 4 years old now.

[vabird]

As an LVT with an interest in anesthesia, I have never heard of a "third spot". Some drugs used in anesthesia do move to fat and other body tissues before they are metabolized but it would never be enough to kill an animal post op. Usually it means that a thin dog like a sight hound sleeps longer. Some anesthetic drugs can be reversed but the animal may get sleepy again if the effects of the anesthetic last longer than the reversal agent. This is pretty uncommon, and again, not likely to cause death. If your dog was truly awake and alert, the death could have been due to an embolism or sudden cardiac arrythmia. If your dog was still recovering, the death could be due to any number of reasons including airway obstruction, etc. I am sorry about the loss of your dog.

[Dr Lee]

Originally Posted by cmjk1976

The doctor offered me a possible solution called "the third spot". Apparently this is a very rare outcome from anesthesia, she explained that some animals will store the anesthesia in an unknown place within their body. After the surgery the animal will wake up and be alert and fine, then suddenly the body will release this storage of anesthesia and the animal will collapse and be put back under. During this time there is no oxygen to the brain and after only a minuet the damage is irreversible and the animal can't be revived.

I am so very sorry to hear about the loss of Celine. It is very hard to lose a family member.

I am also sorry for taking so long to respond to this post but as I have never heard of "third spot" anesthetic death or even "third spot" anything with anesthesia and I wanted to make a cross posting on VIN, the veterinary information network. No one there has heard of it either including an anesthetia board certified veterinarian in Vancouver BC. I copied and pasted the first two paragraphs of your post and asked the board members their ideas. Here are their responses.

"This is baloney of the highest order. Fat stores of anesthesia are not suddenly released causing collapse. It would interesting to find out exactly what was told to the owner of this mixed breed dog."

The following two responses are that from veterinary specialists (last one is a board certified anesthesiologist)

"Learn something new every day!

Causes of death during recovery from anaesthesia from an elective procedure I'd want to rule out would include
severe hypothermia
respiratory tract obstruction
haemorrhage
previously indetected abnormality"


"Baloney and every other type of suspect luncheon meat I can think of."




I would recommend that you re-ask your veterinarian to make sure there is not some large misunderstanding. Also if there is not a misunderstanding then I would ask the veterinarian to provide some article or documentation regarding 'third spot' anesthesia. Maybe there is something that we haven't heard of.

I would like to point out that just because the 'third spot' story is suspect does not mean that there was medical malpractice. It might mean that there just wasn't a clear explanation for the death. Then on the other hand....

Unfortunately the necropsy was performed in house. An official reference laboratory necropsy is always my recommendation for two reasons: 1) third party and 2) more complete. I wonder, were you given the option of a third party necropsy?

I am sorry about this post. I never like to stir the waters however I cannot support the 'third spot' anesthetic release. I am very sorry to hear about Celine and hope that this does not make your grieving more difficult.

[geisha]

So sorry for the loss of your pet.
Hubby is an anaesthesiologist and was wondering if the vet actually meant third space? However his concerns were:
hypovolemia due to internal bleeding
embolism (clot)
and he agreed with Dr Lee.