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Old February 6th, 2007, 10:53 PM
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Day Three on Timberwolf...

And so far so good! He's getting 1/2 cups of the TO Black forest with some Canidae mixed in as we're still weeding it out and one raw chicken medallion. I crumbled one of the freeze-dried venision medallions over his food last night and he went crazy! So I think the venision is a big hit!

Still a bit gassy, but it's not actually nearly as bad, so I hope that's a good sign that in a few more weeks of adjustment, he'll be back to his old self again.

But wow, does that TO have a funky smell! Phew! Petey sure loves it though!
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Old February 6th, 2007, 10:53 PM
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Cool. Thanks for the update. I kind of want to know how doggies do on TO.
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Old February 6th, 2007, 11:05 PM
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Oops, just realized I had a typo there. That's 1 1/2 cups, not half a cup he's getting each day! LOL! He's been cut back from two cups a day because he got a little chubby on the Canidae. And according to TO, you feed almost half the amount that you feed with normal food. So I'm not quite sure how much to feed him exactly. I'm just guessing and will adjust as needed I suppose!

But anyway, I'll let you know how it goes, but so far so good! I think the gas has been cut in half so far. Poor Petey!
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Old February 6th, 2007, 11:09 PM
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lol funny because I read it 1 1/2 anyway.

You'll just have to guage the amount by his weight and his stool too (soft stool = maybe too much food).
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Old February 6th, 2007, 11:13 PM
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When I was feeding it I thought it had kind of a "spicey" (cinnamon?)smell.

Glad it's working out for you....hope it continues.
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Old February 7th, 2007, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Prin View Post
lol funny because I read it 1 1/2 anyway.

You'll just have to guage the amount by his weight and his stool too (soft stool = maybe too much food).
Oh, good to know, thanks! I'm afraid I don't normally pay much attention since I have a pooper scooper come every week. But I'll start checking it out. LOL!


I don't know how to describe that smell, it just smells raw/sharp to me. Probably just really fresh! LOL!
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Old February 7th, 2007, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
And according to TO, you feed almost half the amount that you feed with normal food. So I'm not quite sure how much to feed him exactly. I'm just guessing and will adjust as needed I suppose!
The amount needed will vary depending on what you were feeding prior, if I went from EVO to TO I would likely need to feed more TO not less, Canidae is fairly high calories so probably won't be able to feed 1/2 as much look at the calories per cup between the 2 foods that should give you sort of an idea on the amount to reduce

Do you mind if I ask why you are changing foods in particular going from Canidae which has more meat less grains and is almost 100% organic at a lot less cost to feed?
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Old February 7th, 2007, 06:28 PM
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Sorry, OG, that was a in a different thread, I should have clarified that!

The reason I'm trying the switch is because the Canidae didn't seem to agree with Petey. He has never been a gassy dog on any other food, but in the four months he was in the Canidae, it got progressively worse. He was literally passing gas every 10 minutes and scaring himself and waking himself up constantly, it was so loud and awful.

So I started a search for a new organic food to try and with the help of others here, settled on TO with supplemental raw medallions. The vet suggested a complete food switch rather than just digestive enzyme since he's never had problems prior to the Canidae. I haven't tried the digestive enzyme yet, but I probably will add that in as well just in case. But first, I'm just curious to see if I can reduce the gas on food alone, as he has been on three other brands of food prior to the Canidae and had never had any problems before at all. I used to think he had an iron stomach because he never seemed to be affected by what he ate or by food switches. Not so much at the moment though.

So far, it's now been four days and the gas has already been drastically reduced. He's still getting some Candiae as we're still in the switch process, but it does seem to be the cause for whatever reason. I can't say for sure yet until I finish the switch and see how he does, but so far, it's looking pretty good for the TO.

He was getting two cups a day of the Canidae, but gained too much weight. So I've cut him back to 1 1/2 cups of the TO. According to their packaging and his weight, he could be getting 2-4 cups per day, so I'm playing it by ear at the moment as to the amount. He is also getting a little bit of supplemental raw with the 1 1/2 cups, so even that may be too much. That's the part I'm unsure how to calculate, with the raw and kibble mix being new to me.

Petey was at his ideal weight of 57 pounds before the Canidae, but got up to 62 pounds. So now we're trying to lose those five pounds (they added unattractive fat rolls around his neck ) and then maintain the 57 pound range. He seems to have a slow metabolism or thyroid issues, although all his tests have come back normal. The vet isn't sure why he would gain 5 pounds in 4 months on only 2 cups a day and daily walks. She said some dogs are just like that. Not sure if that answers your question or not, but that's where we're at right now!
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Old February 8th, 2007, 11:39 AM
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Cider's happier to be off the 1/2 and 1/2 TO and Merrick's. She suddenly enjoys her food again, and her poop was great the whole time, but it's a little better without the Merrick's. Down to like half a bag, don't know what I'll do then
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Old February 8th, 2007, 02:09 PM
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Thumbs up Timberwolf Organics!!!

The food is amazing and smells great, her stools are perfect and since we switched from Solid Gold Wolf Cub and Wolf king to T.O her butt doesn`t smell salmon fish and T.O is not at all grainy like Solid Gold.... I bought her 3 bags of Bison and 1 bag of Lamb and barley formula...... Wow!!!!!

For me Timberwolf Organics = thumbs way up!!!!!!!!!
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Old February 8th, 2007, 11:15 PM
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That's great to hear such positive feedback on the, TO! Thanks guys!!!
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Old February 9th, 2007, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
So I started a search for a new organic food to try and with the help of others here, settled on TO with supplemental raw medallions


From dog food project, scroll to the bottom of the page

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=organic
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Old February 9th, 2007, 07:26 PM
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Hmm, perhaps I'm using the word organic incorrectly and should be using holistic or good quality instead. From the little bit I've gandered here and from looking at that link just now, the foods that rank high on the "organic" list tend to rank lower in the "meat as main ingredient" list. Is this correct? I have trouble understanding how a food choice would be better quality than TO just because it more fits the organic label but it has little actual meat in it. Am I completely misunderstanding this??

Bottom line, I cannot keep feeding Canidae as it does not agree with Petey. I am trying TO as it seems to be a good quality food, with high meat content and less grain/fillers. Which I thought was the most important? Or is there some organic vs quality debate I've unknowingly stumbled into? LOL! I am open to trying different brands, I just want good quality.
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Old February 24th, 2007, 12:30 PM
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my girl on her second pack(1.8kg) of TW lamb at the moment.
must say its great food with strong herbal smell.. everything is great on her first pack. but recently on her second pack, stool become real hard and she seems to take a longer time to do her business. sigh..
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Old February 24th, 2007, 02:14 PM
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[QUOTE=Smiley14;370145]
Hmm, perhaps I'm using the word organic incorrectly and should be using holistic or good quality instead. From the little bit I've gandered here and from looking at that link just now, the foods that rank high on the "organic" list tend to rank lower in the "meat as main ingredient" list. Is this correct? I have trouble understanding how a food choice would be better quality than TO just because it more fits the organic label but it has little actual meat in it. Am I completely misunderstanding this??
No, you are not misunderstanding this, due to the availability and price (generally) or organic meats. Hormone-free (we don't use hormones on chickens in Canada) antibiotic free (alot of human grade chickens are like this) and cage free, are a great second best.
NZ Lamb is the best, no sure we have a supply of organic lamd here.
Depending on what you think makes a quality food, thisd could be a debate. Around here everyone is high meat and preferably in the form of meal as the first ingredient, as it provides around 66% crude protein. Some people like "meat" first, it supplies only 16% crude protein (generally)
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Old February 24th, 2007, 04:39 PM
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Hmm.. Organic meat for my pets when I don't eat organic meat myself... Don't think so. At least not yet anyway.

I might be joining the TO club... My dog food store said they'd get me the Dakota Bison if I really wanted it, and I decided I want it.. There's only so much you can supplement before you decide maybe it's the food that needs changing...
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Old February 24th, 2007, 07:07 PM
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That's good news, Prin....you'll have to start a new thread to keep us updated. I just bought a bag of TO's Wild & Natural to mix in with their Innova.
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Old February 24th, 2007, 11:09 PM
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I don't think Canidae has one certified organic ingredient in any of it's foods. If it did, it would be a heck of a lot more expensive.
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Old February 24th, 2007, 11:11 PM
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http://www.canidae.com/ingredients/thefinest.html <-- check that out...
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Old February 24th, 2007, 11:13 PM
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Hey, you know what though, there's a difference between "hormone free", say, and "organic". Most of the hormones are already gone by the time the animal is killed, and the trace amounts left could probably legally be excluded and the meat becomes "free" of hormones...
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Old February 24th, 2007, 11:39 PM
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SO true! Kinda like that fat free thing, is still has some fats, but can be called "fat free"
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Old February 24th, 2007, 11:40 PM
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If it was organic, no doubt they would say it all over the place, right?
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Old February 25th, 2007, 09:32 AM
Emmalou Emmalou is offline
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I think meats can legally be called hormone free or antibiotic free if the hormone or antibiotic supplementation was removed within a certain period of time before the animal is slaughtered. I don't know the exact time period though. No doubt if Canidae contained organic ingredients it would be plastered all over their site and bags.
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Old February 25th, 2007, 12:16 PM
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Canidae, if you notice they are not using the words human grade or hormone free, all over other their bags either but if they malke the claim on their website it had better be so or they could be faced with major law suits for false advertising.

By law they cannot claim to be organic unless they have 95% or or more organic content, and their is strict labeling guidelines

A food can be label as have organic content but must be greater than 70% organic, and strict rules apply

Exmaple meat meal is not allowed to be called organic even to the meat used to create was, if used in a food that is certified as having organic content, then it must be used in under 30% non organic content, therefore certified organic foods have a very low meat content.


Canidae's main ingredients are hormone, antibiotic and pesticide free, so the bulk is , but when you get to herring eggs, alfafa, apples , cranberries, flax they are no longer listed as human grade, antibiotic free or pesticide free being they use a lot of meal sourced from hormone, antibiotic free and human meats they therefore cannot meet legal percent requirements cannot make claims on their bag or even use the words organic.

Labelling guidelines are great for the most part but they do become restrictive when dealing with quality of ingredients used since producers are unable to label as such. Which kind of sucks for consumers since they cannot tell simply from reading the ingredient lists on the bags.

So a consumer then needs to, if they are concerned about the level of quality of meat and grains needs to source the info from the producers website.

This is one of the reasons I do like Canidae as a pet food, they could have gone the route of most companies and figure if I can't advertising the quality of my ingredients in the ingredient list than why spend the extra buying high grade meats and grains to put them in.

If Canidae ever came out with a high protein, grain free food I would be bailing out on EVO if it agreed with my gang, because I know when I went to EVO I was forced to sacrifice the high human grade quality for feed grades
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Last edited by OntarioGreys; February 25th, 2007 at 01:20 PM.
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Old February 25th, 2007, 01:54 PM
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OG, they do say human grade on their website, and in the list where they're bragging about their ingredients (the one I posted above), they could put "organic" ingredient by ingredient, as they do with the human grade, but they don't. So it's not organic. That's not to say it's bad- most of the meats are human grade meats, which is great, but it's not flaming expensive because said meats aren't organic.
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Old February 25th, 2007, 05:09 PM
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Okay my mistake with using the term organic, which I said in the first response to this thread, the grains they use being grown pesticide free can be classed as organic since they are tested to be free of pesticide residue, but to be actually called organic it would have to be certified and certification requires soil and water testing and a paper trail as well.

the meats are human grade, antibiotic and hormone free( alot of meat sold in grocery stores do not meet that standard of being antibiotic and hormone free) but to be called organic would also require that they are fed organically feed

This here is what is required for meats to labeled as organic

http://www.berettaorganics.com/organic/


From the United States Standards for Livestock and Meat Marketing Claims

For meat to be labelled and the term used as Antibiotic free
Quote:
1. No antibiotics used, or Raised without antibiotics: livestock have never received antibiotics from birth to harvest.
if used than the term "no detectable antibiotic residue"

then
Quote:
• All antibiotics are withdrawn at least 30 days beyond the minimum FDA withdrawal requirement and,
• Livestock and meat products contain no detectible antibiotic residue as verified by statistical sampling analysis using a science based testing protocol.
For meat to hormone free

Quote:
Hormone Claims: Background: Hormones * are synthetic or naturally occurring compounds which have been shown to improve gain or feed efficiency, stimulate growth, and/or control reproductive activity. Since all plants and animals produce hormones, a “hormone-free” plant or meat product is a misnomer and a “hormone-free” marketing claim cannot be made. However, since some customers prefer meat products from animals that have not received supplemental hormones and some markets restrict the sale of hormone-treated product, the following claims and standards will be recognized.
Claim and Standards:
1. No supplemental hormones * used, raised without supplemental hormones *, or no added hormones *: the livestock have never received supplement hormones from birth to harvest.
2. No hormones * administered during finishing: the livestock have not received supplemental hormones during the feeding/finishing period.
• *: The terms “hormone,” “growth promotant,” “growth stimulant,” and “implant” are used interchangeably.

For a chicken or turkey to be raised antibiotic free they need be raised free range, otherwise in overcrowded barn condition a disease could wipe out the entire lot of birds, so they are raised in the same sort of conditions as an organic chicken/turkey the real difference is the land raise on for organic must be tested proven to have had no pesticided used on it forth past 3 years and water and soil samples must be taken regularily in order to pass certification and paper records must be kept.
Conditions from sheep to be farmed antibiotic free would have to be the same.

So technically the meat could end up being exactly the same only for organic much more paperwork and testing must be done to prove must be and that is where the extra costs come from.
One of my dads friends has a free range turkey operation and with all th turkey dropping their is absolutely no need to fertilize they produce more than enough nitrogen, and no farmer going to drive a large tractor carrying pestcide spraying equipment thru a few thousand birds on the fields. So anyfree range operation is going to pretty much meet organic stardards even without certification.
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Old February 25th, 2007, 05:20 PM
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Human Grade

The terminology "human grade" is not allowed on packaging in the US, or any food sold into the US, as AAFCO (and the FDA) have not decided what human grade means. I guess the big question that they have in their mind in that a manufacturer can use meat fit for human consumption, but then what if it doesn't get used right away, or sits out without refrigeration (I doubt that happens). So, unless, or until, they decide what that means, it is only allowed on websites, flyers etc, not bags.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 08:14 PM
Euphoric Euphoric is offline
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so do you guys like canidae or what?

i think its decently priced and a good choice. Ive recently moved and dont have access to timberwolf anymore so ive made the switch to candidae. its easy to find, decent food and not too pricey. It also sits well with my puppy..lol 12 years old.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 09:53 PM
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Caniadae is an excellent kibble
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Old February 26th, 2007, 11:53 PM
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It's great! We're just debating the usual sneaky dog food tactics.
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