Cities mull forced neutering of pets & Runaway pit bull neutered by SPCA

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by Rgeurts

I understand how important spaying/neutering is. But to say that there should be NO exceptions is just not right imo. I take very good care of my boys, both of them. But... lets say he escaped from daycare (which happened a few times at the old daycare. Fortunately Nanook wasn't one of them). Nanook cannot go under for surgery of any kind. If he does, it could kill him. There is a high chance the meningoencephalitis will relapse and he has a high chance of getting an infection because he has a compromised immune system. We have spent over $17,000 trying to keep him alive and get him well. We have spent countless hours taking caring of him, loving and worrying over him. Not to mention all the time I have had to take off work to make sure he is taken care of. So I do not agree that there should be NO exceptions.



Responsible pet owners in general. Accidents happen and pets sometimes get away no matter how well you take care of them.

Once again, your issue is would be with the daycare, not the SPCA. There is risk to all surgery and any animal can die. What if your dog needed emergency surgery by the SPCA??? The SPCA can't possibly have two sets of rules and there is NO guarantee owners will be found. If your pet is properly microchipped and your data has been kept up to date on the company's database so you can be contacted, I am sure with a vet's note, they would not neuter your dog.

Something has to be done about the overpopulation of pets and I think this is one great step towards eliminating most of the unnecessary euthanasia.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Once again, your issue is would be with the daycare, not the SPCA. There is risk to all surgery and any animal can die. What if your dog needed emergency surgery by the SPCA??? The SPCA can't possibly have two sets of rules and there is NO guarantee owners will be found. If your pet is properly microchipped and your data has been kept up to date on the company's database so you can be contacted, I am sure with a vet's note, they would not neuter your dog.

This is percisely what happens L4H. They don't just alter without having more detail about the animal in question. And I am certain for all the show dog people, that with the proper documentation they would not alter either. They are not radicals over there but rather level headed and will make necessary exceptions. Don't forget, it is THEY that have to deal with blood on their hands due to the over population. It is THEY that must make sometimes terrible decisions for animals that are not adoptable. It is THEY that have all the burdeon...

[Rgeurts]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Once again, your issue is would be with the daycare, not the SPCA. There is risk to all surgery and any animal can die. What if your dog needed emergency surgery by the SPCA??? The SPCA can't possibly have two sets of rules and there is NO guarantee owners will be found. If your pet is properly microchipped and your data has been kept up to date on the company's database so you can be contacted, I am sure with a vet's note, they would not neuter your dog.

Something has to be done about the overpopulation of pets and I think this is one great step towards eliminating most of the unnecessary euthanasia.

There is a HUGE difference between emergency and elective, so that arguement is silly. I hope he never needs emergency surgery, but if he does, he will be neutered at the same time. But to put his life at risk "just" to neuter him... that won't happen. And you're right... my issue would be with the daycare, but it would also be with the SPCA. And I guarantee there would be a lawsuit if that "were" to ever happen. My dogs have tags with contact info. I'm all for the program as long as they give responsible owners a chance to claim the dog and make a case against sterilization prior to doing it.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by Rgeurts

But to put his life at risk "just" to neuter him...

EVERY pet's life is put at risk with a spay/neuter or a dental cleaning.

I wonder how many pets the SPCA has picked up that aren't altered and the pet has run away due to dogs/cats being in season.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

EVERY pet's life is put at risk with a spay/neuter or a dental cleaning.

I wonder how many pets the SPCA has picked up that aren't altered and the pet has run away due to dogs/cats being in season.

Actually, you would be surprised how many come already pregnant. My perfect example L4H was the old momma that had dead babies in her...remember that little foster?

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by BenMax

Actually, you would be surprised how many come already pregnant. My perfect example L4H was the old momma that had dead babies in her...remember that little foster?

I do .

[BenMax]

QUOTE=Love4himies;979236]I do .[/QUOTE]

A perfect example. And another example is my current foster that was originally from a breeder. He was found, owner located and the shelter was told they no longer wanted. With the tatoo, the breeder was located, and again, he was not wanted. Now with me....and dying.

The other little one with dead babies has lived now 1 year..and a good life. Unfortunately, she is dying.

I cannot shake the comment: Take a break. Oh yeah...nice.

In the name of the discarded, unwanted, abused, abandoned...I will NEVER take a break..not ever.

[Rgeurts]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

EVERY pet's life is put at risk with a spay/neuter or a dental cleaning.

I wonder how many pets the SPCA has picked up that aren't altered and the pet has run away due to dogs/cats being in season.

I agree 100%, but that wasn't the focus of my comment. Mine was specifically pointing to the fact that I wouldn't put Nookie's life at risk just to be neutered. If he had to go under for emergency surgery, that's one thing. But to put him under just to neuter him... that won't happen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm completely in favor of spay/neuter. My best friend and I always argue over that topic. She has a bulldog she wants to breed just becuase he's "pretty". I get so mad at her. I'm 100% against backyard breeders and irresponsible pet owners. But I also believe there can be extenuating circumstances and there are always exceptions to every rule.

[Goldfields]

I think everyone needs a break from that sort of thing, BenMax, including Vets. No-one is indispensable, and sadly no single person is going to stop what is going on.I also think that instead of responsible people and their dogs being penalised for the actions of irresponsible people, more should be done to crack down on puppy farmers.
Of course there should be exceptions to the rule . You know, a dog went missing here. Maybe it was stolen, who knows. It was a Grand Champion Sheltie that also was an Obediance Ch., a beautiful blue merle dog. He was never found. Do you think if he went through a Pound somewhere and was desexed he'd have a better life as someone's pet? I don't think so , his owner idolised him and was heartbroken, and his loss to the breed was immense.
There are plenty of dogs like Nanook that can't take a general anaesthetic too, does the dog get a thorough checkup or are they that keen to spey and neuter that it gets done regardless? Hypothetically, will they even listen to Rgeurt's important reasons for not neutering Nanook? I think these things could become court cases if dog owners are determined enough. Someone here spent over $500,000 and years of their time to save their dog which was wrongly labelled a Pit Bull. It's so wrong that they were put through that. Was the Council just power tripping that they refused to accept proof of the dog's parentage when it was put in front of them?

[BMDLuver]

Interesting topic. I do know from first hand experience that the spca has returned show dogs to their owners on several occasions. One I recall was absolutely stunning and we laid bets as he walked in the door how long it would take for the owner to contact us as we had no i.d. on him whatsoever. It took the particuliar owner all of 35 minutes to call and show up with a lovely folder of all the dogs information and yes he was returned intact to the owners. The issue the spca has in my humble opinion is not with show dogs but rather with idiots who think it would be great to breed their dog and make a few bucks and sell the pups to whatever idiot shows up and has cash because hey,everyone wants a muscle bound pitbull right? of course, 75 pitbulls needing homes is just a drop in the bucket for some folks I guess? and it's not just pittbulls, seems most breeds eventually show up in multiples at the shelter. Pittbulls are what always distressed me the most as there are maybe 35% of the folks who show up to adopt who are responsible owners wanting them for the right reasons. What happens to the rest of them that slowly lose their minds waiting for a home? sad world we live in I must say........ thus ends my evening rant on pittbulls and abandonment as I truly do love the breed (and guess what they aren't a registered breed!)

[Rgeurts]

Originally Posted by BMDLuver

I The issue the spca has in my humble opinion is not with show dogs but rather with idiots who think it would be great to breed their dog and make a few bucks and sell the pups to whatever idiot shows up and has cash

And those are the people who should be targeted. I understand why the SPCA is doing it, and I agree completely that too many pets die needlessly because of greedy, selfish, irresponsible people. I have actually had several people approach me to breed Nanook. I have told every one of them his LONG list of medical issues, many genetic. For the most part people understand and don't try to push it. But I actually had one couple who said "So? Just because he has those issues doesn't mean the pups would. And if they do, it's only going to be 1 or maybe 2 in the litter", and they continued to push it! I was so disgusted by the lack of compassion for the puppies AND the poor people who would end up with one, and even more disgusted that these people belong to the same race as myself. It truly made me sick.Trust me, I could use the $1500+ per pup. It would go pretty far in paying his medical bills. But I would never consider it, not even for a moment. And in saying that, again, I believe there should always be consideration given to animals with extenuating circumstance and to the owners/parents of those animals.

[BMDLuver]

Originally Posted by Rgeurts

And those are the people who should be targeted. I understand why the SPCA is doing it, and I agree completely that too many pets die needlessly because of greedy, selfish, irresponsible people. I have actually had several people approach me to breed Nanook. I have told every one of them his LONG list of medical issues, many genetic. For the most part people understand and don't try to push it. But I actually had one couple who said "So? Just because he has those issues doesn't mean the pups would. And if they do, it's only going to be 1 or maybe 2 in the litter", and they continued to push it! I was so disgusted by the lack of compassion for the puppies AND the poor people who would end up with one, and even more disgusted that these people belong to the same race as myself. It truly made me sick.Trust me, I could use the $1500+ per pup. It would go pretty far in paying his medical bills. But I would never consider it, not even for a moment. And in saying that, again, I believe there should always be consideration given to animals with extenuating circumstance and to the owners/parents of those animals.

There is. I know of a cocker spaniel who has a severe heart condition and is ten years old. He got picked up by local AC and brought in. The owners were contacted as he is microchipped and the owners had documentation as to why he was not neutered. They were charged the cost for pickup and boarding but the dog was not neutered as the point is not to put a dog in danger but rather to promote responsible reasonable pet ownership. The SPCA is not the bad guy here, they are just trying to make a dent in the volume in a reasonable fashion and better educate the public.

[Goldfields]

Rgeurts, those people remind me of the breeder of one of my shelties. I hip scored her and she was not suitable for breeding - fair enough, I considered her a rescue of sorts anyway. But, when I told the breeder she promptly asked could she buy her back. My reply was, yes(knowing she wouldn't agree) but first I'd have to spey her. LOL. She quickly said "Oh, perhaps I can't afford her." Stupid woman! Wicked woman! This girl would not have been able to carry a litter without a lot of pain. Her pups would probably have HD as well. She should have been thankful I didn't take her to court and have her paying that girl's vet bills for the rest of her life.
If your SPCA doesn't want to be seen as the bad guy, or lose a lot of donations, you'd think they would make it known that show dogs, or special cases like Nanook are the exception. I assume your SPCA, like our RSPCA relies a lot on donations from the public?

[Rgeurts]

Originally Posted by BMDLuver

There is. the point is not to put a dog in danger but rather to promote responsible reasonable pet ownership. The SPCA is not the bad guy here, they are just trying to make a dent in the volume in a reasonable fashion and better educate the public.

And that, I agree with completely. The only problem I had was with the article. I believe it was the second link that stated once they have your dog you lose the right to have it remain intact and even if claimed it would not be returned to you until it has been neutered. Even that I agree with if you can't show a reasonable and responsible reason for keeping the pet intact.

[Rgeurts]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

Rgeurts, those people remind me of the breeder of one of my shelties. I hip scored her and she was not suitable for breeding - fair enough, I considered her a rescue of sorts anyway. But, when I told the breeder she promptly asked could she buy her back. My reply was, yes(knowing she wouldn't agree) but first I'd have to spey her. LOL. She quickly said "Oh, perhaps I can't afford her." Stupid woman! Wicked woman! This girl would not have been able to carry a litter without a lot of pain. Her pups would probably have HD as well. She should have been thankful I didn't take her to court and have her paying that girl's vet bills for the rest of her life.


That kind of greed and stupidity just make me ill. I'm a pretty peaceful person, for the most part. But people like that... I can't even begin to tell you how much I want to "neuter" them!


If your SPCA doesn't want to be seen as the bad guy, or lose a lot of donations, you'd think they would make it known that show dogs, or special cases like Nanook are the exception. I assume your SPCA, like our RSPCA relies a lot on donations from the public?

The SPCA does rely a lot on donations and volunteers. And I do agree that the largest part of the problem is backyard breeders, puppy mills and stupid people. I think the government should step in and make spay/neuter clinics affordable to low income families. I think pet stores should NOT be allowed to sell puppies/cats, which is why I refuse to support one of the major chains here. I think it should be illegal to breed a dog/cat without a license etc. There are many things that "could" be done. But until the right people (or enough people that it doesn't have to be the "right" ones) stand up for the pets, nothing is going to change. The SPCA may make a dent in the population with what they are doing, but for every dog they alter there will be several more who will be thrown into puppy mills and/or bred by just plain greedy people. Just look at Kijiji, it's full of them

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by BenMax

That is one heavy statement Goldfields...take a break! LOL - that would be ideal now wouldn't it.

I refuse to put my head in the sand which therefore does not give me the right to take a break. Though it would be very well deserved I can assure you.

No-one has forced you into doing all you do, BenMax. I think you deserve a medal for it, for volunteering, but I wondered if your thinking isn't clouded if you say no exceptions, spey and neuter everything, no-one should breed, it sounds like you don't think there is a reputable breeder left in the world. A reputable breeder will inform the buyer that they will take back a dog they bred and sold, often to rehome, but sometimes to keep like our Bo. It's what our Canine Council here expect us to do. I've taken back a cattle dog in the past and found him a great home. Now, those that won't do that IMO aren't reputable.

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by Rgeurts

The SPCA does rely a lot on donations and volunteers. And I do agree that the largest part of the problem is backyard breeders, puppy mills and stupid people. I think the government should step in and make spay/neuter clinics affordable to low income families. I think pet stores should NOT be allowed to sell puppies/cats, which is why I refuse to support one of the major chains here. I think it should be illegal to breed a dog/cat without a license etc. There are many things that "could" be done. But until the right people (or enough people that it doesn't have to be the "right" ones) stand up for the pets, nothing is going to change. The SPCA may make a dent in the population with what they are doing, but for every dog they alter there will be several more who will be thrown into puppy mills and/or bred by just plain greedy people. Just look at Kijiji, it's full of them

If I was a volunteer I'm afraid that the first incident I witnessed of a dog being desexed against the owner's wishes- when they have shown it is important for that not to happen - I'd be out of there. I was behind the RSPCA here getting a law passed to ban tail docking, but while I think it's great, I expect it hurt their pocket. It turned a lot of the dog world against them, even people who don't dock. It was like, what will they do next? Who will they target next? This no exceptions thing, well it'll be interesting to see what the general public think of that.

[Rgeurts]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

If I was a volunteer I'm afraid that the first incident I witnessed of a dog being desexed against the owner's wishes- when they have shown it is important for that not to happen - I'd be out of there.

I would be right there with you

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by BMDLuver

I do know from first hand experience that the spca has returned show dogs to their owners on several occasions.

Originally Posted by BMDLuver

...I know of a cocker spaniel who has a severe heart condition and is ten years old. He got picked up by local AC and brought in. The owners were contacted as he is microchipped and the owners had documentation as to why he was not neutered. They were charged the cost for pickup and boarding but the dog was not neutered as the point is not to put a dog in danger but rather to promote responsible reasonable pet ownership. The SPCA is not the bad guy here, they are just trying to make a dent in the volume in a reasonable fashion and better educate the public.

Thank you, BMDLuver, for clearing that up for us .

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

If I was a volunteer I'm afraid that the first incident I witnessed of a dog being desexed against the owner's wishes- when they have shown it is important for that not to happen - I'd be out of there. I was behind the RSPCA here getting a law passed to ban tail docking, but while I think it's great, I expect it hurt their pocket. It turned a lot of the dog world against them, even people who don't dock. It was like, what will they do next? Who will they target next? This no exceptions thing, well it'll be interesting to see what the general public think of that.

Certainly do not want a medal. Medals go to those that are responsible and loving people who commit to their pets and have them spayed and neutered.

I am not against good ethical, responsible breeders. What I am saying is there are so many dogs and cats in the system at the moment that are at risk. The vast majority of them are euthanized. I am saying that if breeders and others that profess about being loving animal people, one would think that they would start being a part of the solution by not breeding for a while (even a year..is that too much to ask?). If they are so concerned about their 'breed' then why not take a few from the shelters that are sterilized (or sterilize themselves) and find homes for them? Why not? This would help balance and remove some of these animals from shelters and pounds. It would save lives and contribute not only to their breed overpopulation (even if these dogs were not part of their breeding program of course) but it is 'giving back'...don't you think?

Let's look at the RODESHIAN RIDGEBACK why don't we since you bring up docking and what will they do next. The ridgeback is a defect...yet this is a requirement when showing. Puppies that are born without this distinctive spin line are destroyed...and these are the HEALTHY puppies. Am I against these types of breeders...YES.

I guess you are right in a way Goldfields, I really do need to take a break because infact I am tainted. I wish I could put on those rose color glasses and just say that there is nothing I nor anyone else can do..but I know better and my conscious gets the best of me.

I respect completely what you are saying, and I certainly am not saying that my thought process is the way to go. Everyone is intitled to their opinion and I respect that.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by BMDLuver

There is. I know of a cocker spaniel who has a severe heart condition and is ten years old. He got picked up by local AC and brought in. The owners were contacted as he is microchipped and the owners had documentation as to why he was not neutered. They were charged the cost for pickup and boarding but the dog was not neutered as the point is not to put a dog in danger but rather to promote responsible reasonable pet ownership. The SPCA is not the bad guy here, they are just trying to make a dent in the volume in a reasonable fashion and better educate the public.

Thank you so much for clarifying as you are in the front lines.
You ROCK!

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by BMDLuver

There is. I know of a cocker spaniel who has a severe heart condition and is ten years old. He got picked up by local AC and brought in. The owners were contacted as he is microchipped and the owners had documentation as to why he was not neutered. They were charged the cost for pickup and boarding but the dog was not neutered as the point is not to put a dog in danger but rather to promote responsible reasonable pet ownership. The SPCA is not the bad guy here, they are just trying to make a dent in the volume in a reasonable fashion and better educate the public.

Exactly! and I believe the SPCA, if they can contact the owners in time, will not spay/neuter if there are medical issues. They are not out to kill dogs.


Showdogs, IMO, are no better than a mutt and should not be put on a higher pedestal or be given exceptions to the law.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

No-one has forced you into doing all you do, BenMax. I think you deserve a medal for it, for volunteering, but I wondered if your thinking isn't clouded if you say no exceptions, spey and neuter everything, no-one should breed, it sounds like you don't think there is a reputable breeder left in the world. A reputable breeder will inform the buyer that they will take back a dog they bred and sold, often to rehome, but sometimes to keep like our Bo. It's what our Canine Council here expect us to do. I've taken back a cattle dog in the past and found him a great home. Now, those that won't do that IMO aren't reputable.

Her compassion doesn't allow her to take a break because if she does, there will be one or two more dogs that will die.

If you work in a shelter you see so much sadness due to the overpopulation of pets, including ones from reputable breeders that something needs to be done, allowing "show dogs" to be the exception is just not right or fair.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

If I was a volunteer I'm afraid that the first incident I witnessed of a dog being desexed against the owner's wishes- when they have shown it is important for that not to happen - I'd be out of there.

Well, then I guess you don't see all the pets being gassed to death. De-sexing an animal is not a death sentence, but the overpopulation of pets is for many of them.

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by BenMax

If they are so concerned about their 'breed' then why not take a few from the shelters that are sterilized (or sterilize themselves) and find homes for them? Why not? This would help balance and remove some of these animals from shelters and pounds. It would save lives and contribute not only to their breed overpopulation (even if these dogs were not part of their breeding program of course) but it is 'giving back'...don't you think?

Let's look at the RODESHIAN RIDGEBACK why don't we since you bring up docking and what will they do next. The ridgeback is a defect...yet this is a requirement when showing. Puppies that are born without this distinctive spin line are destroyed...and these are the HEALTHY puppies. Am I against these types of breeders...YES.

Here we do have a Sheltie Rescue Service for any shelties that end up in the Pounds and whenever I get puppy enquiries I do tell people about that, also inform them that our Puppy Sales person sometimes have older dogs requiring a good home. Shelties are very hard to breed, the demand for them far outstrips the supply here.

Don't worry, I am dead against what they do to Rhodesian Ridgebacks too, it's scandalous! I'm also dead against the Dobe breeders(in particular but I guess it just applies to all breeders of docked dogs) who said they would get out of their breed if they were banned from docking. If they really loved their breed they wouldn't be mutilating it in the first place.

Pity there's not some way of making potential puppy buyers take on a rescue from the breed they are after before being allowed a pup, but that's wishful thinking, Rgeurts had better ideas.
Love4himies, please tell me what benefit there is in desexing someone's show dog? Not all show dogs get bred from you know, even though they are intact, in fact when it is so hard to get a top show dog a lot of people won't retire them from the ring to breed with them. Like my first Ch.. I showed her for 8 years and never bred from her regardless of her quality. Actually, my beautiful red girl, Susie, another Ch. wasn't bred from either, and her brother, my best show winner, was not available at stud, or used by us either. We had a lot of fun at shows though. This dogmatic attitude that all must be equal puts me right off . And reading other posts it obviously is not the policy of the SPCA at all.

I see civil rights issues being discussed and court cases looming if there were no exceptions.

Oh, one thing that keeps some Ch's out of the breeding pool is our Grand Ch title here. That's 1,000 challenge points they need and some females are getting old by the time they get it. I think it's terrific that the greats of the ring stay there anyway, keeps the standards high.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

Here we do have a Sheltie Rescue Service for any shelties that end up in the Pounds and whenever I get puppy enquiries I do tell people about that, also inform them that our Puppy Sales person sometimes have older dogs requiring a good home. Shelties are very hard to breed, the demand for them far outstrips the supply here.

As there are in Canada - breed specific rescues that is...for just about every breed you can think of. But why does not those that love the breed, that are REPUTABLE, ETHICAL breeders not participating in helping the breed that they so love that are sitting in pounds and shelters? Why can they not contribute to helping these dogs? I have tried here, and they will not even entertain the thought. My thoughts on this..they are snobs...S-N-O-B-S and contrary to what I would think they would be...compassionate AND passionate about their beloved breed.

I also have a problem with your statement ' Puppy Sales person'. It sounds so ugly. Sorry for my ignorance.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

Here we do have a Sheltie Rescue Service for any shelties that end up in the Pounds and whenever I get puppy enquiries I do tell people about that, also inform them that our Puppy Sales person sometimes have older dogs requiring a good home. Shelties are very hard to breed, the demand for them far outstrips the supply here.

I'm sorry but those two statements kind of make a conundrum of each other, don't they? If the demand is so high then why is a rescue necessary? I would also think if that were the case then breeders should have a long waiting list. If I recall quite some time back you made a statement in another thread that went sort of like "Wouldn't it be nice to have waiting lists for all your litters?" I don't think Australia is any different than Canada. There's tons of issues there as well.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Exactly! and I believe the SPCA, if they can contact the owners in time, will not spay/neuter if there are medical issues. They are not out to kill dogs.
Showdogs, IMO, are no better than a mutt and should not be put on a higher pedestal or be given exceptions to the law.

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Her compassion doesn't allow her to take a break because if she does, there will be one or two more dogs that will die.

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Well, then I guess you don't see all the pets being gassed to death. De-sexing an animal is not a death sentence, but the overpopulation of pets is for many of them.

[hazelrunpack]

The problem with enforced spay/neuter is that it doesn't address the problem, which is irresponsible ownership. You can pass laws to require all legitimate, ethical breeders to cease and desist--they will because they're ethical and law-abiding. But 20 years from the time the law goes into effect, your shelters will still be overflowing and there will still be a problem. Why? Because the puppymiller will move elsewhere, but still sell in your area; and the byb will still be around under the radar. All that law will do is put ethical breeders out of business and leave breeding of purebreds to puppy millers and bybs. That doesn't sound like a good solution--it certainly doesn't help the breed. Even the thought of that leaves those of us who love a breed, distraught.

There will always be irresponsible people who won't care and will do what they want to do...and the only way to ameliorate that problem is through education, so that prospective owners do care, and do their homework, and become instrumental in putting millers out of business by not buying from them... The market, unfortunately, drives the business--and IMO putting ethical breeders out of business is not going to change the market for millers--if anything, it will make it even more lucrative.

[aslan]

To be totally honest i don't get why a purebred in the show ring MUST be intact. How can a female beat a male when she doesn't have ummmmm danglybits. If you're so concerned with having a stud male,then bottle him. I do understand it's not as easy as that with a female. But seriously how does the dogs ability to still be able to produce make it any better than one that can't. Owning a golden that is show line on all sides for as far back as we can see on papers, i kinda resent the fact that he is now looked upon as less than because he is fixed,,and i have to say i applaud the breeder we got him from for allowing us to break our contract with her and letting us have him snipped due to an issue we were having with a rescue.