How do you tell a reputable breeder from a puppy mill?

[mona_b]

I have to agree with you Sandi.

My sisters BC (RIP Abbey 05.29.08) came from both Conformation and Working title lines.You CAN have the best of both worlds.And it doesn't ruin the breed at all.Being on a farm with cattle,my sister was looking for a working dog to help.Abbey was amazing and she was a hard worker..Even to the end she wanted to work.She was 12 when she passed on.But when the work was done,she enjoyed the time playing with her sibblings.3 Sibes,and being with the family.



Now I have raised GSD's.All 3 have came from the same breeder.My breeder not only did confomation,but also SchH.They were titled in both.Only one of my three were working dogs.With my other two I didn't have to give them a job,I didn't have to keep them "busy".My current is a retired Police Dog.This breed wasn't bred for the force,they were trained for it.Tron knew when it was time to work,but he also knew that when he was home,it was play time.

Like you Sandi,I know many breeders who do both with their breeds.

eccentricities (barkers, diggers, chewers, good off leash or around other animals)

See to me this comes from the training.You don't correct this when it starts,it will not end.I hear so many times about Sibes digging,and can't be off leash.Yet my sister has 3,they are on a farm,not tied up when outside,never dug.2 are 11 and one is 12.She had them as pups.It took constent training.

Look at these dog actors.The Sibes on Snow Dog and Due South(canadian)I know Paul from the show.I have seen and been around the dogs used on Due South.The same breeder of these dogs also had one of her dogs on Snow Dogs.They can be trained off leash.The proof is in the Movies and shows.

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by babymomma

Say you had a very good breeder, That bought ckc registered dogs, very good health records, vet checked for hips, elbows, temperment etc. And they bred them for people that didnt want them for showing , and wanted them simply for pet purposes..when the dogs had puppies he or she had them vet checked, dewormed and had there first set of needles and sold them simply as pets without being CKC or AKC(etc) registered. Sells them for say, $500 to very good homes that have been screened. Maybe they are doing it for a hobby and obviously doesnt care about the money and sells them for the price of just vet bills and food. Would that make these people BYBs.. Just because the dogs arent shown or registered.. I just dont understand what falls under the category of byb, I mean i know a breeder that does the above, and he started this because alot of people cannot afford a $1300 dog just because it has a registered name or its parents are show champions and really want a certain breed of dog and people obviously want healthy dog.. Oh and this guy im talking about, takes the dogs back that he rohomes for any reason at all so they dont ebd up in a bad home or shelter..

He most certainly is a BYBer!

The purpose of breeding should be to improve the breed. Period.

The testing you speak of (hips and elbows) is just a beginning and not something done by your vet. They are done by specialists in their field and need to be certified by either OFA or PENN. The reason for registering isn't so that you can charge more money - it is so that you can trace the heritage of the dog. Tracing that heritage is genetically important. By looking at the dogs pedigree you can see which dogs meet the standard and which dogs have been certified and cleared of crippling or fatal genetic diseases.

The whole reason for showing to be assure that the dog meets the standard as closely as possible. Read the standard for any breed. It talks about how every aspect of the dog should be "put together" so that it is best able to do it's job.

If you really do your homework - find a truly ethical breeder - and develope a relationship with said breeder, then $1300 is a small price to pay for a companion that you will have for 10 to 20 years with minimal health issues.

If you just want a dog, then going to a shelter or rescue group will provide you with a purebred dog of your choice that fits the description of what your friend is selling for $500.

BTW - I am betting money that your friend pays about $500 for the vetting of that litter of puppies he is selling for $500 a piece. So he most certainly IS making money. And considerably more then an ethical breeder as he certainly isn't spending near as much on the parents as an ethical breeder does.

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by babymomma

Say you had a very good breeder, That bought ckc registered dogs, very good health records, vet checked for hips, elbows, temperment etc. And they bred them for people that didnt want them for showing , and wanted them simply for pet purposes..when the dogs had puppies he or she had them vet checked, dewormed and had there first set of needles and sold them simply as pets without being CKC or AKC registered

Ethical breeders have a contract.This means either a s/n or a non-breeding one.The non breeding one will only be taken off from the breeder ONLY when the dog has been shown and titled.So I can't really say that this person did purchase these dogs from one.Contracts are very important.I was on a neuter contract.I HAD to get my guys done.If not,I could have been sued.Some breeders do this.And they can.

Also babymomma,under the CKC pedigree act,it is ILLEGAL to sell unregistered pups if the parents ARE registered.This breeder shouldn't be doing this.And if someone by chance wants the papers and he doesn't provide them,they can get in contact with the CKC.

And once again,I agree with Sandi.

[Gail P]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

I have to wonder why you think it is not possible for a working dog to get both conformation (show) titles and working titles?

I think that border collies are quite versatile enough to be able to do anything you want with them, but that breeding them for conformation will affect the breed, maybe not immediately but down the road. Do you put a herding title on them first and then enter the showring, and do no breeding until your dog has been proven in both areas? Or do you put their show championship on them first and then attempt herding, possibly to find out that maybe this particular dog doesn't quite have what it takes to excel at herding. By then, have you perhaps already bred your show champion? If so, you are producing pups that look great but do not have as strong a desire to work stock. A few generations of this and the breed has been diminished to pretty dogs that have lost their original purpose, or the breed becomes divided into show dogs and working dogs. I'm sure that there would be some people who would indeed prove their dogs both ways before breeding, but not all would, in fact I'd go so far as to say that probably many wouldn't, if they're not first and foremost stockdog people.

Honestly - I think there is a huge difference between a "reputable" breeder and an "ethical" breeder.

Agreed.

They want to improve on the lines they have and breed dogs that meet the standard (in looks) and are capable of doing the job that they were meant to do. This most certainly is possible.

How can a breed be standardized when the individuals differ so greatly? Little dogs (sub-30 pounds) big dogs (50-60 pounds), smooth coat, rough coat, a multitude of colours - yet why does everyone who thinks of a border collie think of a fluffy black and white dog with perfect white markings? If dogs with a certain look are placing better than others in the showring, what kind of puppies are the breeders of show dogs going to be producing? If you selectively breed for a certain look, you may be passing over wonderfully strong herding ability, which is what this particular breed is all about. What does the farmer/rancher really care most about, if his dog can get the job done efficiently or if it looks good? Wonderful if you happen to have it all rolled into one pretty package, but the border collie is first and foremost a stockdog and that is what you want to be breeding into them, working ability. My own three purebred BC's all vary greatly in looks, one is a 45 pound smooth-coat black and white female with nice markings except for only having a bit of white on the back of her neck, one is a 55 pound black and white rough-coated male with nice white on his body but only minimal white on his face, and the youngest is a 58 pound giant of a puppy at only 10 months old. He's a long, lean coarser looking smooth-coated red & white puppy with uneven markings (face is nicely marked, but only one white leg and half his neck). He doesn't even look like a border collie to many people, they think he's some kind of mix-breed. He's been taken to sheep and has shown interest in working, which is something that we will be doing more of with him as he matures. Will he excel at herding? Too early to say. Would he do well in the show ring? Never. But he is every bit as much a full-blooded border collie as his fluffy black and white half-brother.

If the "working" border collie people in Canada are upset about their breed being excepted by the Canadian Kennel Club and concerned that bloodlines will become all about looks and not working ability - maybe they should take the time to become members of the National breed club. It is my understanding that the National breed clubs set the standard for the breed and the National registries use that standard when it comes to judging and such.

It's not just a Canadian point of view. Most of the members on the BC boards http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php are from the US and share a similar viewpoint. I believe that in every forum on that board there is a message titled something like "welcome to the BC Boards - Read this First" that explains the board views of preserving the border collie as a working breed.

[Gail P]

Originally Posted by mona_b

See to me this comes from the training.You don't correct this when it starts,it will not end.I hear so many times about Sibes digging,and can't be off leash.Yet my sister has 3,they are on a farm,not tied up when outside,never dug.2 are 11 and one is 12.She had them as pups.It took constent training.

Absolutely the best thing anyone can do for their pup is start them out on the right foot by being consistent in their training. But, not everybody has the same level of expertise to train a dog and some breeds undeniably have certain tendencies over others that would make them harder to train, need more careful managing or are less suitable for certain living situations. Not every breed suits every person and some dogs are easier for a novice dog owner than others. I firmly stand by what I said that a person interested in getting a pup needs to know as much as possible about the breed they're interested in, and yes do the training so that their pup doesn't end up dumped in a shelter a few months down the road because they got in over their head.

The proof is in the Movies and shows.

Have you ever heard the saying "don't believe everything you see on TV?" I'm just kidding, I'm sure that they are smart and wonderful dogs and I have nothing against Sibes whatsoever. I just got a chuckle over that particular saying. Please don't take offence, I just couldn't resist

[LavenderRott]

How can a breed be standardized when the individuals differ so greatly? Little dogs (sub-30 pounds) big dogs (50-60 pounds), smooth coat, rough coat, a multitude of colours - yet why does everyone who thinks of a border collie think of a fluffy black and white dog with perfect white markings?

Breed standards differ from breed to breed and are set by the National breed club. You certainly wouldn't judge a border collie by the rottweiler standard! The breed standard for the rottweiler is the same in virtually every country they are registered in with the exception of the tail. European bred and whelped dogs have tails and most bred and whelped in the U.S and Canada do not.

The reason that most people think that border collies are black and white fluffy dogs with perfect white markings is because that is the prevelant picture most people see. It clearly states in the AKC breed standard that all colors are allowed and the only fault in white markings are that they shouldn't be predominant. You can read the standard for yourself here: http://www.akc.org/breeds/border_collie/index.cfm

Now, I don't hang out with border collie people but I do hang out with rottweiler people and many of them are not only very active in showing in conformation, but they also herd, track and do schutzhund. While most but conformation titles on their dogs first (a dog who works is often leaner and more muscular then most AKC judges like to see) this does not mean that a dog doesn't see sheep or ducks until it gets a championship. Most are exposed and have started training long before they trial.

I think that border collies are quite versatile enough to be able to do anything you want with them, but that breeding them for conformation will affect the breed, maybe not immediately but down the road. Do you put a herding title on them first and then enter the showring, and do no breeding until your dog has been proven in both areas? Or do you put their show championship on them first and then attempt herding, possibly to find out that maybe this particular dog doesn't quite have what it takes to excel at herding. By then, have you perhaps already bred your show champion? If so, you are producing pups that look great but do not have as strong a desire to work stock. A few generations of this and the breed has been diminished to pretty dogs that have lost their original purpose, or the breed becomes divided into show dogs and working dogs. I'm sure that there would be some people who would indeed prove their dogs both ways before breeding, but not all would, in fact I'd go so far as to say that probably many wouldn't, if they're not first and foremost stockdog people.

No - honestly if I was looking for a border collie puppy I would expect to see not only titles on both ends of the name of both sire and dam - but I would expect to see OFA or PENN numbers for both certifying hips, elbows and hearts and I would expect CERFs certifying eyes. Certifications can't be done before a dog's 2nd birthday anyway - so you have plenty of time for showing before you even consider breeding. The point of breeding is to preserve the breed - so you breed the best to the best. If your show dog doesn't show a lot of working drive - then you breed to a dog that does. Provided, of course, that your working dog also meets the standard and has been shown to PROVE that it meets the standard.

You may well be right that the borders' work ethic will decline due to recognition by the CKC. To be honest - the sight of a show German Shepherd makes me cry. I honestly can't see how those poor dogs can NOT have hip and elbow issues as the breed them for the look they are now. Used to be, they were stacked in the ring to get that long, low look.

The trick is to EDUCATE. If everyone that wanted a dog would simply do their homework - know about the breed they are interested in, from coat to temperment to health issues. Know what to look for in a REAL breeder.

[Gail P]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

You certainly wouldn't judge a border collie by the rottweiler standard!

Of course not, and that's not what I meant. I meant that within the border collie breed there can be tiny dogs, big dogs, different coat types, different ear sets etc. since they were originally bred for their abilities and not their looks.

The point of breeding is to preserve the breed - so you breed the best to the best.

Agreed

If your show dog doesn't show a lot of working drive - then you breed to a dog that does.

This is where I strongly disagree. When we're talking about border collies, a dog without working drive and proven herding ability should never be bred, regardless of how well it did in the show ring. Both parents should be proven working dogs to maintain the integrity of the breed.

You may well be right that the borders' work ethic will decline due to recognition by the CKC. To be honest - the sight of a show German Shepherd makes me cry. I honestly can't see how those poor dogs can NOT have hip and elbow issues as the breed them for the look they are now. Used to be, they were stacked in the ring to get that long, low look.

It is sad to see that happen to a breed. It happens with horses too. Quarter horses for example. There are the performance horses and then there are the halter horses with huge muscled bodies and tiny feet. Could those halter horses ever do what they were bred for, race a 1/4 mile without breaking down? Not likely.

The trick is to EDUCATE. If everyone that wanted a dog would simply do their homework - know about the breed they are interested in, from coat to temperment to health issues. Know what to look for in a REAL breeder.

Yes, yes, yes, I couldn't agree more.

[LavenderRott]

I meant that within the border collie breed there can be tiny dogs, big dogs, different coat types, different ear sets etc. since they were originally bred for their abilities and not their looks.

LOL!

The standard gives a size range, different coat types and different colors.

Every breed that is registerable with the "reputable" registries (AKC, Canadian KC, UKC) has a well developed history and original breeders bred not only for ability but also for a look. If the look wasn't, to some extent, important then every dog with excellent herding ability would be a border collie no matter what the size or look. Or if the dog was great at schutzhund it would be called a Malinios. It is the standard which tells everyone what the breed should be - according to history.

If your best BC, working wise, was a tiny 25 pound bitch - would you really want to breed her? No matter what the work ethic - the breed is most certainly meant to be larger then that and one would hope that a breeder who truly loves the breed wouldn't.

[Gail P]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

The standard gives a size range, different coat types and different colors.

Just because the standard may accept many different looks, doesn't mean that all will place equally as well in the show ring. If a certain "type" becomes the judges preference that is what people will be breeding to attain, regardless of how many other looks are acceptable, and if breeding for a specific look takes precedence over breeding for working ability it is to the detriment of the breed. I recall when we had great danes and were talking with one breeder who retired from showing her dogs just because of such a thing. Her dogs were of heavier European lines but the leaner American lines had become more favourable in the ring. Her particular "type" of dane was out of favour in the show ring so rather than begin breeding to fit into the ring she retired from showing and stayed true to the lines which had produced her many champions in the past.

If your best BC, working wise, was a tiny 25 pound bitch - would you really want to breed her? No matter what the work ethic - the breed is most certainly meant to be larger then that and one would hope that a breeder who truly loves the breed wouldn't.

Is that statement not a contradiction of sorts to what you said earlier? You suggested breeding a show champion with less than stellar working ability to a dog with strong drive as a form of compensation, (trying to breed back in the drive/instincts that should inherently already be there). Why could you not breed that 25 pound high drive bitch to a larger high drive dog and produce pups that will grow to be average sized adults, well within the breed "standard" and will do the job they'e meant to do? I'm just curious why you think it's okay to compensate in one area but not the other?

Here is something you may find interesting, it is an excerpt from http://www.bordercollie.org/bcchar.html if you wish to read the whole page.

"Appearance
While a group of one hundred Border Collies will probably look as if they belong to the same breed, they will not have a uniform appearance. Since a "good" dog can be judged only by its herding performance, there is no "breed standard" of appearance to which Border Collies should conform. In general, they are of medium size (25-55 pounds), with coats that may be smooth, medium, or rough. Colors are black, black with tan, and, less common, reddish-brown, all usually with white markings. Predominantly white Border Collies and merles, though unusual, also occasionally appear.

Border Collie Registries
The original registry for working sheepdogs is the International Sheep Dog Society in Great Britain. In 1946 two words, "Border Collie," were added to the pedigree to ensure that the dogs were not confused with the British Kennel Club's Collie. In North America, the principal registry for working dogs is the American Border Collie Association, Inc. (www.americanbordercollie.org), 82 Rogers Road, Perkinston, MS 39573. The only registry of Canadian Border Collies is the Canadian Border Collie Association (www.canadianbordercollies.org), Werner Reitbock, Secretary, Box 424, Winchester, ON, K0C 2K0, Canada. The United States Border Collie Club, Inc., supports these registries for their efforts to preserve and promote the working Border Collie.

Despite strong opposition from all people who value the genetic heritage of the breed, both the Kennel Club in Great Britain and the American Kennel Club have taken up the registration of Border Collies. They have imposed written physical standards as breeding guidelines and award titles for conformation in dog shows. In Australia, New Zealand, and Britain, where a strain of Border Collies has been bred for dog shows for twenty years or more, those dogs have a predictable physical type, but their ability to herd livestock has been severely compromised.

The United States Border Collie Club, Inc., opposes registering Border Collies with organizations, such as the American Kennel Club, which offer conformation classes for Border Collies. Since its formation in 1975, a primary purpose of the USBCC has been to protect working Border Collies from misguided efforts to create a breed based on physical characteristics instead of on skill in herding livestock.

The United States Border Collie Club, Inc.
The USBCC is the oldest Border Collie breed club in North America. Founded to protect the Border Collie's unique genetic heritage, protecting the Border Collie remains the club's task today. It took five hundred years of single-minded breeding to produce the Border Collie. In the latter part of the twentieth century it took only a couple of decades for dog-show fanciers in several sheep-raising countries to reduce their selected strain to just another pretty pet."

[catlover2]

Originally Posted by MorahMommy

We are thinking of getting a puppy. There are so many ads in the paper and on-line. How do you tell if it's a reputable breeder or a puppy mill? What are the signs to look for?

I'm new to this forum, but I would like to make a comment about Puppy Mills. They don't always sell through pet stores. What I've noticed is that people who run these ads in papers are "agents" for puppy mills....they have frequent ads, often with different pups--usually they are the little "designer" breeds, such as cockapoos, yorkiepoos, another week or so schnauzers, maltese, peekapoos etc. Sometimes, these sellers claim to have a "health guarantee", and they are never sold already neutered or spayed. If you ask about the parentage of the pups, you'll probably get a story like I did, that they don't know but it's a favour "for a friend who lives up north, and Toronto people won't drive that far to see the pups".

If you buy a "designer" pup from a newspaper ad, you are supporting puppy mills or backyard breeders.

[Kitty1963]

I've seen reputable breeders that have way too many dogs as breeding stock. Do these dogs really have a good quality of life? Are they part of a family? Are they pets or just an experiment for someone with an ego to "improve the breed?" How is that any different then someone crossing 2 different breeds to make a "designer" dog. I prefer larger breed dogs but have to wear a uniform to work so I wanted a low shedding dog. My options were limited.
Not all back yard breeders are criminals just in it for the money.
I have a Golden/Poodle crossbreed and a Lab/Poodle crossbreed. They were purchased from a farm that had a purebred pedigreed Lab and Golden as well as a pedigreed poodle. The dogs were the owner's pets. They were well trained and were obviously loved.
My dogs are 9 years old and in perfect health and are both very smart and well trained.

[Longblades]

Originally Posted by Kitty1963

I've seen reputable breeders that have way too many dogs as breeding stock. Do these dogs really have a good quality of life? Are they part of a family? Are they pets or just an experiment for someone with an ego to "improve the breed?" How is that any different then someone crossing 2 different breeds to make a "designer" dog. I prefer larger breed dogs but have to wear a uniform to work so I wanted a low shedding dog. My options were limited.
Not all back yard breeders are criminals just in it for the money.
I have a Golden/Poodle crossbreed and a Lab/Poodle crossbreed. They were purchased from a farm that had a purebred pedigreed Lab and Golden as well as a pedigreed poodle. The dogs were the owner's pets. They were well trained and were obviously loved.
My dogs are 9 years old and in perfect health and are both very smart and well trained.

Seems to me the obvious answer to the scenarios you question is no, those would not be considered reputable breeders. And I agree that not all BYB are criminals. I would consider most to be ignorant but not malicious. Ignorant of the fact they can help ensure a new puppy has the best life possible by making sure the parents are health tested. Some tests are a gene test, for CNM or EIC in Labs for instance, where the puppy can be sure to never get those diseases. Also by providing conformationally sound parents to ensure a puppy from them has the best chance to be active in it's new family with less chance of developing lameness or injury that would limit it.

Don't confuse purebred with well bred. Simply being purebred and registered with the Canadian KC or the AKC is not in and of itself an indication of good breeding.

Are your dogs non shedding? Crossing a Poodle does not guarantee the result will be non shedding. You were lucky if they don't shed. Yours could have ended with the Lab or Golden gene for coat and been shedders. Like the expensive designer goldendoodle dog my friends got as a pup being assured the thing wouldn't shed. They have a very ill, immune compromised son. It shed. It shed tons of hair. Luckily their son was ok but he was devastated when the dog did develop severe illness itself and lived to only not much past one year old.

ETA: On re-read perhaps it's not clear I mean purebred and registered is a first step towards well bred. And, it is possible that crosses of purebreds from reputable breeders are health tested for the conditions prevalent in their breed. Don't happen to know of any, but it's possible.

[Barkingdog]

My dad got a female German Shepherd puppy that was about 4 months old from a 'pure bred' breeder . As soon I saw the poor puppy I knew she was very sick , my dad was an old man and did not know he was sold a sick dog.
It was very heartbreaking b/c she was really sweet dog and dad got the dog more for me. The puppy die a few days after dad brought her , I am pretty sure she had distemper and was at her end when dad brought her home.
Being a pure bred breeder means nothing if the person breeding the dogs is dishonest.