Bought from a petstore

[O'Neil]

I just want to warn anyone thinking about purchasing a puppy from a pet store. My aunt purchased a pup the end of February. She was told the pup would only get to be 40 lbs and knee high well this certainly wasn't true the vet said it was a shepard. There were other things also wrong with this pup it was difficult to train, it was afraid of everyone, it destroyed furniture, ate rocks, dug up all the flowers. My aunt knew she could not keep this dog because of its side alone.
It continuously barked even when it was wearing a barking collar.
I called petstore but they refused to do anything for her, said all sales are final , my aunt would never have taken this dog if she had known the truth about the size this dog would be. She did not want a large dog.
Muffin went to AnimalAide and then to Animal Control, she bit the staff. People who took her home in hopes of adopting her returned her within a couple of days. They had a Animal Behaviorist come to see Muffin and she told the animal control that she was untrainable.

[Lucky Rescue]

You have posted this 6 times now. I understand your frustration and anger, but no one should EVER buy a puppy from any pet store, backyard breeder, puppy miller or broker.

I can only suggest to people that they do their homework before getting any pet or dog.

[sammiec]

Since we've all read your 6 threads about xxxxxxx I suggest that you notify people in the surrounding area; put bulletins at the post office, in the paper, flyers, etc. We already are aware of your aunts problem and wish you guys the best.

[Cinnabear]

Thanks guys and here's me thinking I'm losing it because I replied to it somewhere else and thinking it got deleted somehow.

[Luba]

I sent you a message and instructed you to contact Guelph Humane Society as they are doing an investigation on XXXXX. There's nothing we can do for you here really, though sympathise with any problems now resulting from the purchase of puppy mill dogs.

[zoli]

hello. im new here but i came across this thread. i thought id mention that i bought a puppy from him 5 years ago. he was the best friend i ever had. no behavior problems what so ever. he did end up with cancer. but i dont think that was xxxx's fault.

i dont know anything about him getting check out by the spca. but ill always thank him for the most loyal creature that ever came into my life.

[joeysmama]

Well Zoli it's the luck of the draw isn't it? There are some good dogs that have come out of puppy mills and even a reputable breeder might turn out a pup that's not perfect. BUT a reputable breeder will be FAR more likely to give you a good quality dog and to be willing to take back any dog that doesn't turn out to be a good fit in your home. In fact they would probably insist on it.

But really the biggest problem with pet stores is the fact that they are supplied by puppy mills and doing business with them only perpetuates the use of dogs (and other animals) as little factories who exist in squalid conditions only for the purpose of pumping out too many litters during their sad lonely little lives.

[zoli]

has anyone found out if that place is in fact a puppy mill? iv grown up around animals. my aunt has a shelter in bowmanville. iv seen what animals look like when they come from those places. its horrible!!!!

when i got russell i just dropped by and asked if i could see them. he had a big sign out front saying that he had puppys for sale. also my best friends mother got one from him aswell. and her dog has been great too.

when they brought russel from the barn with his siblings they were all clean and very healthy. now im not saying hes got a mill or not. i have no idea. but i have had great expirence with him.

as far as breeders im not sure how much i trust them either. since i was a kid, my father always had a GSD. the first one i can remember was sarg. we got him from a breeder in germany and we had nothing but skin problems with him. the poor guy would scratch and bite himself untill he bled. we had to put him down. then we got reba. she was amazing. we got her from a family in high park. she was not from a breeder. and she lived very healthy untill 13 years of age. after her we got blade. he came from a very reputal breeder north of the GTA. and guess what? one day he had a bunch of seizures in 4 hours. the vet said it pretty much melted his brian. he was looking at us trying to figure out who we were. then he tried to attack my dad. so due to us have little ones in the house we had to put him down. he never showed aggression until that day he ahd those. he was only two.

then my brother got one from a breeder west of hamilton. his name is rouge. hes a great dog. but hes got a pocket in his throat. the breeder gave him to my brother for free. because he couldent warrenty him. my brother had him fixed so that he couldent pass on the gene to others future puppies. but the breeder keeps breeding his parents. which i think they should stop.


anyways, sorry for my little rant. i just want people to see that wether a pup comes from a breeder or somewhere else you never know what you are getting. ill never buy from a breeder again. the reason for that is because inbreeding in a big thing. and it happens alot. now a person can argue and say it never happens. but guess what accidents happen. and whan you get a place that has many dogs breeding, they do interact with eachother. and well nature happens.

[14+kitties]

Maybe you would like to read the link I've posted. It may help you understand why we are so adamant about shutting down bybs and puppy mills.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=69012

Regardless of where you got your puppy, and from sounds of it it is a typical mill, you are happy with it and there is nothing to change that. From sounds of things the other dogs in your life did not come from good breeders either. There are breeders and then there are ethical breeders. Unfortunately ethical breeders are few and far between. I have yet to meet one nor do I wish to as I will always adopt my dogs from shelters or rescues. My choice too.

Did you meet your pups parents? Both of the parents? Did you see the environment the puppies were being raised in? I'm not talking the outside of the barn. I'm talking the inside. It doesn't take much to clean up a puppy before showing. Inside I bet would have shown a huge difference from the outside. I can almost guarantee there would be cages galore. Those cages were probably filled with dogs in various stages of pregnancy or nursing a litter. That litter would be taken away at a certain age so the mother could be bred again. Money, money, money. Dollar signs is all they want to see. Next time you visit ask to see the inside of the barn. Then come back and tell us how good it is. I will bet you dollars to donuts you will not be allowed inside.

There are far too many bybs and puppy mills in this world. We need to be responsible and learn how to recognize them. This, of course, is just my opinion.

[zoli]

no i never met his parents. im totally against puppy mills. i love animals. belive me if i ever came across one and knew it. that man would be severly hurt. im a 6 foot 320 pound man, and i love doggies more then most people..

unfortunatly i lost my dog russell to cancer in april. i never did see the barn. but i dident ask either. he had a very nice area set up in his home for people to come see them. he also has children there. i dont know he seems like a very nice man.

i will check it out thow. im taking my new GSD there to start training on saturday morning. im not sure if he still sells puppies. but he now trains GSD for the military and police. i hope all is well. i really dont want to find one of these places close to my home. and knowing my russell came from a place like that. it will crush me.

plz if anyone can tell if he was found doing this for sure. if its true ill never see him again. and word does travel fast.

[14+kitties]

I bet this "barn" the puppies are coming from is a dark, dank place with no windows to the outside.
Ethical breeders can not wait to show you the puppy's lineage and the parents. They want to show them off and ensure you you are getting exactly what you are paying for. If the father isn't available on sight most ethical breeders will arrange an appointment for you to meet him.
Did this man tell you if anything was ever wrong with the puppy that you could bring the puppy back at any time or was there a standard "30 day guarantee of health?" Did he tell you that if for any reason you could not keep the dog you had to return the dog to him? That is what ethical breeders do. They do not want their dogs to end up in shelters or rescues.
It doesn't take much to offer up a unified house in order to sell puppies. I could set up a nice area in my home too in order to show puppies or kittens in my case. And kids - yeah. Let's borrow the neighbours kids or tell ours they had to play nice when there are customers around. $$$$$$$$$$

I hope and pray we are 110% wrong. I hope when you take your dog out for training the man is more than willing to show you his breeding facilities. I pray you will find a clean, well organized barn where dogs are able to run and play and enjoy life.

[zoli]

you know my dear. it seems like you have already judged this person. and you dont even know him. like i said i have grown up around animals that have been abused. this place was very clean. and i could see that the people cared about the pups. he was not a breeder of any sorts.

anyways. why do people always want to belive the worst in what they hear? i guess thats just the way it is.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by zoli

you know my dear. it seems like you have already judged this person. and you dont even know him. like i said i have grown up around animals that have been abused. this place was very clean. and i could see that the people cared about the pups. he was not a breeder of any sorts.

anyways. why do people always want to belive the worst in what they hear? i guess thats just the way it is.

Mmm, possibly. Or I have taken what the OP and you yourself have posted and come to some conclusions. Funny, I also did a google search. Besides their homepage, which shows a very neat farm setting at a distance, and their hours of business, all their other pages have been taken down.
OP said when trying to return their dog that all sales were final. As I stated in another post an ethical breeder will never ever tell you that.
You yourself said you asked to see a certain type of dog and they immediately brought one to you. Funny he always has puppies available. You also said he had a big sign out front. I bet you that sign is always out front. Which means if he isn't a miller he most likely is a broker. A broker works for millers. In my eyes there isn't much difference. Both are huge contributers to the pet overpopulation issue we have. Do you know how many dogs and cats are euthed each year because there are no homes for them? Millions. Yet these "breeders" and "brokers" are out there producing more and more and more. So yep, I guess I judge.
Ethical breeders do not use brokers. Ethical breeders do not always have puppies available. They have a breeding schedule for their dogs and the really good ones will normally have a waiting list for the puppies produced. Ethical breeders do not have a variety of puppies available. They concentrate on one breed.
Brokers/millers will always have a variety of puppies available because that is the "business" they are in. Brokers/millers will not have or will not show you the parents of the puppies. Brokers/millers do not offer to take the puppy back if something happens. All sales final.
Again, I suppose I judge. Sadly experience has taught me to do so.

[BenMax]

I am happy that you are happy with your dog. The problem here is that as 14+K has already stated, there are currently thousands of dogs, today, that are waiting for new homes. The vast majority of them will be euthanized, either with lethal injection, electrocution, shooting or gassing. Let's not forget about the cats as well...the numbers that much higher.

There is so much information now on the internet or on the news about puppymills, brokers and bybs. There are ways to stop this but for whatever reason, we all make excuses on why we 'buy' from these resources.

A reputable or registered breeder does not put out signs inviting people to buy their 'product'. They breed once a year usually and the pups are already placed before they even enter this world. The genetics of the parents are checked, and if there is a problem with the line...the breeding of the animal is immediately stopped.

I as well as so many other pets people are involved in rescue or shelters...or are people that take the initiative to educate the public about this practice of breeding and store shopping. We are in the trenches day in, day out, pulling unwanted domestic animals from all different places such as shelters, pounds, mills and also deal with animal surrenders from 'loving' owners. It is a never ending saga, and to be honest..very disheartening.

[zoli]

i dont know maybe you guys are right. but unless someone can prove the that is what happend there, then i will believe he is strait up. i was thinking about this all day. and i do remember that when i asked about where russell came from, he said he buys pups from people that have litters and dont have the time to take care of them. now i know that you guys will jump all over that. but there could be some truth in it. the pups he showed me were all mutts. not many people will pay big money for a mutt. so is it worth the risk? i only paid $200.

well like i said ill be there on saturday. if it looks sketchy then ill get the police involved.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by zoli

i dont know maybe you guys are right. but unless someone can prove the that is what happend there, then i will believe he is strait up. i was thinking about this all day. and i do remember that when i asked about where russell came from, he said he buys pups from people that have litters and dont have the time to take care of them. now i know that you guys will jump all over that. but there could be some truth in it.

There could very well be truth in that, zoli. Unfortunately, puppies who come from such irresponsible breeders who breed their dogs willy nilly and don't ahve the time for them often are the ones who have both physical and emotional problems. Did you know that the first 12 weeks of a puppies life are the most important in terms of socialization and emotional well-being? If this fella is buying dogs from such backyard breeders, what does he know of how they were raised those most crucial weeks of their lives? And then he keeps them in a barn until he sells them? Again, they aren't being exposed to, and prepared for, the natural environment in which they'll be adopted into.

With all due respect, I'm not sure you understand the difference between an ethical/responsible breeder and a backyard breeder (maybe not a puppymill but not far off in terms of breeding for profit or out sheer irresponsibility). Would you please take the time to read the following links? They provide much information in explaining why a byb is not where you should be looking for a pup.

What Is A Backyard Breeder?
http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm

This person you are dealing with acts as a broker between the breeders and the customers; what he's doing is no different than a pet shop.

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/ps.htm

Originally Posted by zoli

the pups he showed me were all mutts. not many people will pay big money for a mutt. so is it worth the risk? i only paid $200.

The risk is to the parents of those puppies. The more demand created, the longer their lives are used for breeding purposes and profit. The risk is to the families who have to deal with serious behavioral and/or medical issues. Not just in terms of financial loss for their treatments, but to heartbreak as well when the pet has to be put down because of these issues. Unfortunately something you've already experienced. Yes, there are no absolute guarantees if one adopts from an ethical breeder, but your chances of bad experiences diminish greatly.

For about the same price, you can adopt a puppy/young dog from a non-profit shelter or rescue. Many are raised in foster homes, cared for, vetted, and socialized appropriately. In addition, vaccinations, deworming, and sterilization are included in the price. Were you aware that there are 559 puppies up for adoption within a 100 mile radius of Toronto? A currant total of 1333 dogs for adoption in the same area? These figures aren't even accurate in the total amount of dogs at risk of euthanasia as it doesn't take into account those waiting for new homes in many municipal pounds and shelters in the same area.

Originally Posted by zoli

well like i said ill be there on saturday. if it looks sketchy then ill get the police involved.

There is nothing illegal about puppymills and backyard breeders. As long as they have clean shelter, food, and water, the law is on their side. Unfortunately, our laws don't take into account all the other necessities dogs need to grow into healthy (both physically and emotionally) members of our families.

Now, to address your need for a trainer...have you checked this guy's references? You mention somewhere that he trains police dogs? Do you know that for sure? You've spoken to the owners of these dogs? There are no government organizations that regulate trainers as well...it's really a case of buyer beware so please do your research well before entrusting the training of your puppy to a stranger. Anybody can call themselves a trainer and set up shop so please be careful.

Here's a pretty good guideline to choosing a trainer. Please read all the links on the page so you know exactly what you should be looking for.

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/default.aspx

[mona_b]

Sorry, but I am with the others on this.

Originally Posted by luckypenny

With all due respect, I'm not sure you understand the difference between an ethical/responsible breeder and a backyard breeder (maybe not a puppymill but not far off in terms of breeding for profit or out sheer irresponsibility). Would you please take the time to read the following links? They provide much information in explaining why a byb is not where you should be looking for a pup.

And I am with luckypenny on this one.

I have raised/owned this breed for 27 years now. And this breed was in my family before I was born. And is STILL in my family. All mine came from the same "ethical" breeder. My breeder not only titled in Conformation, but in SchH III. As did the breeder of the Sire. He doesn't do Conformation, only SchH. All health/genetic testing was done BEFORE breeding. There was also contracts that I signed.

Originally Posted by luckypenny

You mention somewhere that he trains police dogs? Do you know that for sure?

Can't wait to hear the answer.

zoli, my brother is on the Canine Unit. I am with these dogs everyday, and my current is a retired Police Dog. So I know exactly as to who trains them.

[erykah1310]

Originally Posted by zoli

and i do remember that when i asked about where russell came from, he said he buys pups from people that have litters and dont have the time to take care of them. now i know that you guys will jump all over that. but there could be some truth in it. the pups he showed me were all mutts. not many people will pay big money for a mutt. so is it worth the risk? i only paid $200.

This is called a broker.
As for your statement about inbreeding from reputable breeders, c'mon now, there is line breeding that happens from time to time with a reason, its not just putting 2 dogs together to flip a profit.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by zoli

not many people will pay big money for a mutt. so is it worth the risk? i only paid $200.

Sorry to tell you but that is how the millers and pet shops thrive. People WILL pay big bucks for a mutt. Look at the Labradoodles, Cockapoos, Peekapoms, Jugs, etc that are sold for $750 up. Those dogs plus many many more are called designer dogs and are the heart and soul of a miller's moneymaking ability. As long as people keep buying these dogs for outrageous sums of money they keep pumping them out. Females are bred twice a year until they can't breed any more. After that they are thrown out to fend for themselves - literally a lot of times. These dogs are sold in exactly the type of environment you have described and pet stores.

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

Funny, I also did a google search. Besides their homepage, which shows a very neat farm setting at a distance, and their hours of business, all their other pages have been taken down.

Yeah I saw that.

Then on another there is the pics of the 6 month old GSD. Wearing a PRONG going through training/tracking? No Police Dog wears a prong. No Police Dog in training wears a prong. No dog period wears a prong when doing tracking.

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

Sorry to tell you but that is how the millers and pet shops thrive. People WILL pay big bucks for a mutt. Look at the Labradoodles, Cockapoos, Peekapoms, Jugs, etc that are sold for $750 up. Those dogs plus many many more are called designer dogs and are the heart and soul of a miller's moneymaking ability. As long as people keep buying these dogs for outrageous sums of money they keep pumping them out. Females are bred twice a year until they can't breed any more. After that they are thrown out to fend for themselves - literally a lot of times. These dogs are sold in exactly the type of environment you have described and pet stores.

Exactly.

And these poor breeding dogs get no vet care. And no socializing and very little human contact. Of course the pups look healthy. They want them to sell. They just don't give a rats behind about the parents. Worse the mothers.

And the sad thing is, people actually think these "mutts" are breeds. And the sad thing is, before people would say, oh he is a cocker mix, or she is a poodle mix, or boston mix. Now, they go by these stupid "designer" names. A mix is a mix.

Met a woman today with a cute pup. Asked what he was, she said a springerdoodle. I asked why didn't she just say a springer mixed with a poodle. She said cause a springerdoodle is his breed.

Originally Posted by zoli

then my brother got one from a breeder west of hamilton. his name is rouge. hes a great dog. but hes got a pocket in his throat. the breeder gave him to my brother for free. because he couldent warrenty him. my brother had him fixed so that he couldent pass on the gene to others future puppies. but the breeder keeps breeding his parents. which i think they should stop.

What the heck is a "pocket"

Well this breeder is a BYB. Ethical breeders do NOT sellgive away sick/unhealthy pups. Since your brother got him as a pet, then the dog would have had to get him fixed anyway as per the contract.

[aslan]

i'm just going to give a quick and simple answer...if you show up and want a puppy and the person brings puppies out,,,you haven't been on a waiting list with this breeder,,then they are a byb plain and simple..a reputable breeder will almost always have a waiting list for their pups.

[zoli]

as i said. you guys will jump all over me. why cant you all try and look at the good in the world, instead of the bad. breeders want way to much for a puppy. im sure that they are worth it. but what about the people that cant afford $1200 to $2500 for a dog? should they not be entiteld to one? look as i say im not new around animals. my expierence with breeders has been nothing but problems. plain and simple. before i got chase my GSD i contacted a breeder. they told me $1800 for one. i said im sorry but thats too much. she called me a month later saying that if i still wanted one i could have one for $800 now. i said no thank you. so you tell me how much breeders care about the pups. its a buisness! plain and simple!!!

now for the lady who knows who trains the dogs for the police. do you think there are only a couple people who do?

look im not starting an argument. even those pups that are brought into this world either on purpose or by accident, THEY ALL NEED TO BE LOVED!!

[Masha]

Originally Posted by zoli

as i said. you guys will jump all over me. why cant you all try and look at the good in the world, instead of the bad. breeders want way to much for a puppy. im sure that they are worth it. but what about the people that cant afford $1200 to $2500 for a dog? should they not be entiteld to one?

If someone wants a dog and doesnt want to pay the fees associated with a solid breeder they can adopt a dog -- there are many purebreds available for adoption -- I dont see why someone need to go to a byb to get a dog whose health and temprament cannot be certified any better than a shelter dog's health and temprament.

Originally Posted by zoli

before i got chase my GSD i contacted a breeder. they told me $1800 for one. i said im sorry but thats too much. she called me a month later saying that if i still wanted one i could have one for $800 now. i said no thank you. so you tell me how much breeders care about the pups. its a buisness! plain and simple!!!

this is a good example of a byb and not a 'solid' breeder. There should have been a waiting list and no one should be able to just 'call up' for puppies.

There is NO reason or justification to buying puppies from BYB or puppy stores... if someone's dog had an "accident" and they choose to give the dogs out for a nominal fee i get that, but even that should not be supported.. thats why our shelters are so overcrowded.

[zoli]

ok. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. now here is my question to you all.

what should happen to all those puppies that are byb. or happen to be from a mill? should they be destroyed? or should they have loving homes?

[clm]

Originally Posted by zoli

ok. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. now here is my question to you all.

what should happen to all those puppies that are byb. or happen to be from a mill? should they be destroyed? or should they have loving homes?

The point is if people stopped buying from these questionable sources, then thousands of dogs living in misery purely for the sole purpose of being breeding machines would stop. Whether or not these pups deserve loving homes would not be an issue if people would inform themselves prior to getting a dog and stop perpetuating the problem.

clm

[Masha]

Originally Posted by zoli

ok. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. now here is my question to you all.

what should happen to all those puppies that are byb. or happen to be from a mill? should they be destroyed? or should they have loving homes?

These dogs should be rescued and placed into homes to finally stop the never ending cycle. If you pay $$ for a BYB puppy, the BYB now has incentive to generate more and more litters. These BYB should be raided, the dogs confiscated and adopted out to the people who wanted to buy from these BYB to begin with and therefore put a stop to the cycle.

If BYB were disallowed people would adopt their dogs because it would be either paying a hefty fee for a properly bred dog or paying a nominal fee for a rescue.

A lot of people dont know about/understand the whole BYB concept and end up buying their dogs from sources that they otherwsie wouldnt... thats why its important to keep education people.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by zoli

as i said. you guys will jump all over me.

But we aren't jumping all over you. We are trying to explain why back yard breeders and puppy mills should not be allowed to exist.

THEY ALL NEED TO BE LOVED!!

You're right. They do. So do their mothers who live out their lives in a cage large enough to lie down and that's about it. They can't move. They are lucky if they can stand in the cages. They lie in their own excrement. They are allowed to live until their usefulness is over. Then, if they are lucky, they are let out on their own. If they aren't they are killed. Google puppy mills. You will see things you wish you hadn't. The images will remain with you for the rest of your life.
And what about all of the dogs/puppies in shelters and dog pounds? For every puppy born to an unscrupulous byb, miller, broker, etc. one more will die in a shelter. Don't they need to be loved too?

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by zoli

now for the lady who knows who trains the dogs for the police. do you think there are only a couple people who do?

I'm not that lady but I can bet you dollars to donuts she can tell you the answer.

[erykah1310]

This is sounding way too familiar to me, right down to the police dog training. Reminds me of some drama that went on at another forum a long time ago.