apartment dogs Q

[melanie]

oh am i full of them today. so it seems alot of dogs live in apartments, it is becoming more popular here but only with smaller breeds.
now here is my query, a friend of mine has a 150pound rottwheiler cross called sampson (sammy was aquired to make someones ego feel good). they live in a very small apartment in which the dog can not actually turn around in some rooms (my dog i dont allow to visit, she doesnt like small areas). there is no grass or yard. but they take sampson to the park up the road every few hours for a pee and play, he is avery nice boy and gentle. he is loved and well look after in feed ect although he is very overweight. now my yard is huge and well fenced, a doggy heaven. when he comes here he is terrified to be in the yard alone and will not go out in the dark without a human and screams if we go anywhere (poor charlie just stares at him, you know what she is thinking- freak).
so i am just wondering if this is normal for apt dogs and do you think it is appropriate to keep him like this? i dont, it breaks my heart to see him not be a free dog and be so scared, i am encouraging them to move to a house at the moment but will it help him?? will he just carry on and be unhappy?
so essentially i want to know what you think of this style of housing, general consensus and do you think a dog can lose these habits and be happy?? will training change behaviour like this??
thanks lovelies

[Luba]

I have my own opinions about active breeds being in apt's

I say it's okay for toy breeds and elderly dogs that don't require much exercise.

However, personally I'm not a big fan of putting a dog in an apt. To me they all should have room to roam But thats a perfect world.

[Kona Dawg]

When I first got Kona I lived in a two bedroom apartment. She is what I would definately call a high energy breed (Golden/husky X). I have since moved to my new house (big yard, fully fenced)

For any high energy breed I don't think it particularly matters if your in an apartment or not, either way it all comes down on how much exercise your dog gets. I jog Kona in the morning for a little over an hour, and walk her for the same amount of time on leash in the evening. On the weekends we hit the dog park both Sat, and Sun. This hasn't changed between living in the apartment or the house. One thing with the house is its alot easier to let her to pee in the middle of the night.

Kona still prefers if I'm outside with her and will stand at the door until I co-operate...but really, she just wants to be where ever I am, she's literally a shadow to me.

In the end it doesn't really matter where you live to define how fit/unfit of an owner you may be/are.

[cmt489]

As an "apartment dog" owner, I feel I have to offer perspective from the other side. Where I live, many people own dogs that live in condos, including large dogs and active breeds.

My observation of these dogs (and these observations have been seconded by breeders, dog walkers, trainers and vets that I have talked to) is that they are not only well adjusted but that they actually tend to be in better shape and get more exercise than your average dog in the burbs. Oliver gets, at minimum, three hours of exercise a day. He gets a 45 minute to 1 hour walk in the morning, goes out for 1 1/2 hours with the dog walker in the University Endowment lands, and then gets walked for 45 minutes-1 hour at night. This does not include play time when we stop and play with some of his buddies.

The dog owners here all know each other and there is an informal meeting at a park every night at 6:00 which often goes until 8:00 or later. The dogs all run and play together.

Included with these dogs, which are in incredibly good shape and are happy, well socialised and adjusted, are an English Mastiff (Truman - such a sweetie - all the dogs follow him and love him), a golden retriever (Maxie), a golden lab (Katie), a lab mix (Lola), a shepard mix (Max), a Russian Wolf Hound (Peach), an English Sheep Dog (Bob), a Great Dane (sorry, for the life of me drawing a blank right now even though he is Oliver's favourite playmate), a Weimeraimer (Ginsu), Oliver (my Shiba), a border collie (Buntie), a Cocker Spaniel (Tango), a Jack Russel (Simon) and the list goes on.

As long as the owners are RESPONSIBLE, an apartment/condo dog can have just a fulfilling of life as a dog with the yard with just as much or more exercise. I have a feeling that your friend's dog would have issues no matter where they live. Moving into a house or raising a dog in a house does not alter how responsible of pet owner you are, granted, it is MUCH more work when you have a condo since you cannot pretend that they are self exercising.

Anyhow, that is my own opinion on this matter, so I won't take offence if you don't agree...

Michelle

[melanie]

thanks guys, that helps me a bit. i just spend so mcuh time fretting for sammy, but now i know it is not that unusual (see his dad is a bit of a dominating creep so i wasnt sure). and he has lots of doggy friends at the park to, he is just such a lovely boy. i do agree that perhaps it doesnt matter where he lives he will have problems. oh well now i feel a bit better about it all, it was just a little hard to understand. but charlie has had some pretty small yards in the past and it didnt kill her. and that much excersise, dotn tell charlie or she will want to move

[Lucky Rescue]

Dogs can be miserable in a mansion, and happy in an apt. It depends on the owner.

I know someone who has two GRs in a 3 room apt. but she is very dedicated to taking proper care of them, and they get tons of exercise and are very happy.

Dogs in big yards can suffer if they are put in a yard and forgotten about 24/7 by people who think this is enough and that they will exercise themselves and don't need any company.

It really doesn't matter where a dog lives, it matters much more WHO it lives with.

[chico2]

Lucky,I was going to say the same thing,you beat me to it.
I have seen dogs who live in houses with a yard who never gets to go for a walk or a run.Living in an apartment the owner has to take the dog out..
But all in all it only matters what kind of owner the dogs have,the love and care it gets.
This afternoon I heard this horrible cry from a dog,I thought he had gotten hit by a car,I ran out,my heart racing a mile a minute.
Here is this idiot slapping his old german-shepardX around,I am not sure what happened before that,but I saw a girl running with a dog on a leash.
Needless to say,I yelled what the"buck"are you doing??Stop,or I'll call the police!!
He said she was going to attack the other dog that's why he hit her,he also had a little girl with him...I was soo mad I cried,but I think I shocked him into seeing,he was very wrong and cruel.
The poor GSX must have been at least 12yrs old,there are soo many big fat cowards out there

[Luba]

Now aren't people one of the most ignorant of all animals!!

[sammiec]

I live in a spacious 1 bedroom apartment. I totally agree that any dog can be happy in an apartment assuming that the owner takes the responsibilty to properly exercise the dog. My puppy is that happiest thing. There are plenty of dogs in our building and she contantly has someone to play with outdoors.
I would asume that many uneducated owners would assume that letting their dog out in the backyard is sufficent, not all, but many. I think when you're in an apartment that "luxury" is not there and therefore the dog is, more times then not, garaunteed a "play time" with its owner outside.

[Luba]

Many dogs can be happy and adjust but I am not sure I'd say all dogs.

It is true, it depends on the owner and their activity level but having a home with a yard is more convenient. Not saying yourself but many people I know who have apt dogs tend to become somewhat lazy about taking the dog out.
Waiting for the elevator up and down, dealing with people in the elevator with your dog in close quarters.

One thing I find irritating and irresponsible is how some individuals don't keep their dogs close to them in elevators. Not that it bothers me, being a dog lover but some people aren't. Some people are scared and some just aren't fond of dogs.

My dad lives in a condo and many of his neighbours have dogs all around him.

Not only do the dogs bark all day in constant boredom but at times he can't even get in/off the elevator because the ignorant owners won't move the dogs. He's been attacked by a little dog who bit at his feet (owners thought it was no big deal...they never even leash him...always running up and down the hallway).

Then there are the idiots that live directly nextdoor to him that let their dogs go #1 and #2 on the balcony...ends up stinking pretty bad.

I've also seen these dogs with their paws up on the balcony railing barking at people going by, attempting to jump over.

Now I know a lot of you can say....these are isolated incidents but there seems to be a growing number of apt dogs.

Pls don't jump on me here just an observation on my part.

Someone I worked with had a border collie x that lived in an apt on the 4th floor. The dog went through the window trying to get outside (something below interested him). He died, but painfully full of glass and shattered bones, bleeding profusely while taken to the animal hospital downtown. Yes this can happen in a house as well.

Sure dogs can be exercised by having a good walk but how often do apartment dogs get 'off leash time'?? Not every city has off leash parks, or even those types close by. Not every dog suits being off leash near other dogs. I believe these lovely dogs deserve a space of their own to be able to run and play off leash where they are safe and under supervision.

Someone said that apt dogs can be healthier, well I've seen my share of apt dogs and many of them are very very obese!

The person I told you about that lives next to my dad, they take their dogs out on walks a lot but the dogs never get off leash run time. They are in an apt and this is what they have: german shepherd, golden and a mixed breed. All of them large breeds and all of them FAT! They go for walks but what kind of exercise program is that if they can't run??

On another note I have a friend who is an active person, jogs a lot, daily!!
He has a mixed breed dog that is probably a bit of GSD and Husky. He takes his dog on long runs daily and though he lives in an apt he wishes he had the convenience and pleasures of a yard for his dog to play in!

[cutelittlemako]

Luba, your post was really interesting, and true. I used to live in the country, so getting a dog in the city was a concern for me. We have a pretty big house, but I still didn't know how it would be to have a dog with my neighbours so close. I got this book called "Metrodog". It's very good, and it addresses some of the issues in Luba's post (elevators, going out when you live in an appartment, dog parks...). It also helps with training, for people who live in appartments or houses. Very useful book - especially for people like me who had never lived in the city. I didn't even know dog parks existed before I read it.

[cmt489]

Luba,

While I can't argue with your observations (these people are obvious idiots) there are irresponsible owners all across this country living in apartments/condos and houses alike. If we all lived as close to our neighbours as those in condos do, I am sure that we would observe a lot more idiots with pets that live in houses as well!

Also, in my experience, it is human nature to generally see the good when we are observing something that we support/agree with and to generally see the bad when we observe something that we do not like (and no, I am definitely NOT accusing you of selective observations but I do think this is human nature ). Let's face it, when we see a happy, healthy, well behaved pet we let it pass by with no real observation - it just registers as "proper". On the other hand, the bad tends to stand out more - the fat dog, the in your space dog, the owners that don't clean up.

Anyhow, I will stop contributing my two cents to this since I am pretty certain that I only came to this board with $1.50 and I have pretty much eatten through it.....

Michelle

[Luba]

Michelle you are so funny and you are so very entitled to your opinion. People see things differently and that is fine thats what makes all of us unique!!

[melanie]

hey michelle, i will send you $2.00 so you can come back for a little longer . thank you everyone, you have really helped me become more informed. i think both arguments are right, it comes down to who you are as an owner. i think part of sammies problems are his owner, i really love sammy, he is sooo sweet he has a giant head that is just great to cuddle and kiss. and i agree his problems may just be him, for instance hes huge and 4yo. he is absolutly terrified of charlie and tip toes around her, she has never done anything to him but a growl at times. he is really intimidated easy, (and charlie just loves to be a complete bitch of course) he went near the dog food storage and she came in and jumped at him and told him off (didnt touch him at all) he ran screaming and cowering in the corner and i just dont really feel that is normal for such a big dog. and what worries me is one day he may just loose it out of fear. (but his dad says that he likes to physically dominate him in public (we had a fihgt over this) so i cant imagine he has much fight left in him, i think they call it breaking the dog, i really cannot stand the guy )
but i have seen dogs sit in back yards (eg shelly next door) and never leave it, never get a play or any human company and often end up biting a kid or something and are put down. or just live a miserable existance.
i do think that a yard is best, with adequate excersise of course, but due to excessive development and over population i realise that this is not available to all people. so thank you for the informative discussion.

[Luba]

Michelle keep this up you could get some money outta it!

[cmt489]

Always seeing through my schemes aren't you Luba??

[Chany]

I think this takes us back to outside dogs. Not to get anything going again but all situations can't be judged by a few people who are doing things right or wrong. Like L.R. said it depends on the owner.
Country people's pets are just as happy and taken care of as apartment owners. It all depends on the owners. There is no right or wrong, different situations, different opinions. I for one am glad this thread came along.
I think as long as we all remember that if the animals are well taken care of and treated with kindness who cares where any one lives?
There Michelle I've used some of your $1.50 seeing as how your getting donations.

[mastifflover]

I also live in a small loft and own an English Mastiff (Buddy) and prior to having Buddy I had a Neapolitan Mastiff these are both giant breeds. My dog is probably in better shape than most that live in houses. Buddy is socialized and not aggressive and not fat. It also keeps me fit we walk for 45min to an hour every morning and at least an hour or two in the evenings and dog parks everyday on the weekends. Rotties tend to gain weight if you dont watch what they are eating especially if they are not active. The myth is that small and medium sized dogs are better for apt. living. Well these are usually very active breeds that when bored at home will get destructive out of boredom and lack of exercise. When you carry your dog on a walk what kind of exercise is it getting? People that have dogs in houses tend to not walk there dogs or socialize them as much because they can go out in there fenced yard so the owners get lazy when it comes to walking their dogs.

[Lucky Rescue]

The myth is that small and medium sized dogs are better for apt. living. Well these are usually very active breeds that when bored at home will get destructive out of boredom and lack of exercise.

That is correct. Some small dogs are fine for apt life - toy poodles and Chis come to mind - but most (especially terriers) are not.

Many of the large guardian breeds, like Mastiffs,Filas, etc were bred to do nothing much at all except lie around until they were needed.

[Bill & Bob]

A buddy of mine told me that in many cases, Great Danes can make the best apartment dogs because they are so lethargic and just love to lie about.

Anyhoo, yup, I'll second or third or whatever to the idea that a dog can be sad in a mansion and tickled pink in a one bedroom apartment. Bob and I are in a one bedroom basement suite and we do quite well. Roughly three hours of out time (walking, playing, pooping, etc.) in the neighbourhood a day. Around the house, when we get ready to go for a walk, he runs back and forth from one end of the apartment to the other. Unfortunately tiles on one end so he slides into his food and water bowl all the time. But we're both happy. I did get rid of some furniture when I got him though. I hadn't thought about it as if I was getting a new roommate until he was in the house. Now everything is pushed up against the walls so he can't knock it over.

[melanie]

Quote - 'People that have dogs in houses tend to not walk there dogs or socialize them as much because they can go out in there fenced yard so the owners get lazy when it comes to walking their dogs'.

well some do yes, many a friend of mine has a dog in a backyard that never go anywhere, of course they are played with and often have their own kids for entertainment (no substitue for excersise).
but i do know many a responsible owner with a backyard, and i socialise with many a yard or farm dog. responsible owners - hey me for instance (and we also know lots of working dogs that get heaps of excersise chasing utes ). i take her out for a run 7 days per week with the average duraton of 2 hours at the crack of dawn. we play all day, oftne a big session mid afternoon and we do everything together, the yard also means that we can pop out there at anytime and have ball play ect.. and toileting is her business. i enjoy having the yard as it gives charlie her own personal space, it is her area. if kids come or we have a party ect, she can choose to have her own space (other than bedroom), i often leave the back door open so the yard is an extension of the house, she just comes and goes as she pleases, she is a happy gal (but what i would give to sleep past 5.30 am each morning, sometimes it hurts). but then on the other hand, we can go on holiday where we stay at someones house or camping and she can be in some pretty confined spaces then, and she is happy with that too (but i run her like crazy in this situation). i do think she loves her yard and would be sad without it, but even without it i just tend to run her till she has no energy at all, and then she doesnt seem to care where she is. i suppose that the secret, with adequate excersise a dog really isnt going to care where she is napping . it all comes down to who you are. but dogs in apartments is on a steep increase, dog ownership goes through phases of popularity and we are now hitting one (but luckily this trend seems to cover mostly small breeds) also as i mentioned before, development has resulted in alot of people not having a yard or grass area of their own (becoming more prevalent in cities in oz too). but that should not mean they cant have the joy of pet ownership. it is just really important to stress to new owners in that situation, the amount of excersise needed and the focus of ones life, quite often a good part of the day involving dogs, hey that might just be a really good idea for an advertising campaign to new or prospective owners.. thanks my lovelies

[RDM]

Originally Posted by Luba

One thing I find irritating and irresponsible is how some individuals don't keep their dogs close to them in elevators. Not that it bothers me, being a dog lover but some people aren't. Some people are scared and some just aren't fond of dogs.

Or on the sidewalk, or in the alleyway, or virtually everywhere that there are people who aren't fond of dogs...

Originally Posted by Luba

Someone I worked with had a border collie x that lived in an apt on the 4th floor. The dog went through the window trying to get outside (something below interested him). He died, but painfully full of glass and shattered bones, bleeding profusely while taken to the animal hospital downtown.

Huh. A lady wrote me the other day with a tearful tale of her Aussie who ran past her out the door and got killed by a car. Last week a lady wrote me, ALSO about her Aussie who got past her husband in the garden and not only got hit by a car, but lay on the side of the road for 12 hours before dying in the van of the SPCA truck that ultimately found her.

Wouldn't happen in an apartment, what with all the doors to go through before a dog hits the outdoors and all.

Dogs don't go through windows on a regular basis, funnily enough. A dog who goes through a window is having some kind of crisis. Like the neighbors' dog when I was growing up (in a - *gasp* - house) who went through their second story bedroom window. Poor thing died.

Originally Posted by Luba

Sure dogs can be exercised by having a good walk but how often do apartment dogs get 'off leash time'?? Not every city has off leash parks, or even those types close by. Not every dog suits being off leash near other dogs. I believe these lovely dogs deserve a space of their own to be able to run and play off leash where they are safe and under supervision.

.

Try a minimum of 2 hours a day. In addition to sheep herding every weekend, flyball every weekend and agility mid week.

Huh. Imagine that.

I live in an apartment currently with FOUR border collies, who are the real deal. They are no pampered froo froo dogs, they are high drive working dogs. They swim in the ocean almost every single day. They are off leash in the park twice every single day, and sometimes more often than that. They are incredibly fit, they are incredibly obedient, they get more outdoor off leash time than most dogs I know who live in houses with yards, because I can't rely on a yard to "exercise" my dogs. That's my job, and I take it seriously. That's the committment I made to them when I got them, and I keep my word every day, rain or shine, sick or not. They are "safe" and they are under "supervision" at all times. You won't find my dogs scaling fences or digging under them; digging up the flower beds or chewing on the garden hose, getting stolen from the yard, barking and annoying the neighbors or any of the other things that dogs with yards do.

Lucky for you, you have a house and a yard and can afford to have lofty and biased ideals. Sad for me, I don't have those things. Happily for me, what I DO have is four damn happy dogs, who have an incredible life, and are extremely happy dogs.

Imagine that.

RDM

[Luba]

RDM
Bit snippy in your posts aren't you? Thats okay, you take offence to what I say though I never directed it at you...funny how people get so sensitive this way. I suppose you some how translated 'my feelings' about things into 'nobody in an apt should have a dog'. Jumping to conclusions always gets you right where you belong, looking stupid!

Dogs go through windows all the time and are not generally in crisis when they do such.

There are many breeds that will do this if they see their owners on the other side of the glass. I cannot say it could or is an occurrence I have heard of more then once with a border collie. However, I have heard of it several times with Pointers, Weinmarners, Irish Wolf Hounds, Akitas and Huskies.

Maybe your (4) dogs are too busy herding one another in your apt to jump out any windows

Now, unless those people outright lied, which I doubt then I tend to believe it because four of them I know directly in my little circle of friends. So, that leads me to believe there may just be the chance of being more!

You can go through the rest of my posts again and see how many times you want to quote me if you're going for a record. I would find that humourous, if it thrills ya!

Not going to defend what I wrote, no need to bother..but I thought I'd clear up the dogs jumping through windows thing for you. It uh does happen imagine that!

However, I have to have a little fun with this one here is a quote from one of your former posts... You are the same individual who keeps four active herding dogs in a ROOM in your apt all day while you're at work. Now I see why you take offence (laughs) great job there four dogs, one room all day! I bet they're thrilled at that! No kidding they're happy when they get outta there, I would be too! I hope you post directions for the fire dept as to how many dogs you have locked up in that room incase of fire.

My dogs stay in the "dog room" (spare bedroom set up for dogs) during the day while we are at work.

[cmt489]

For the record, I have NEVER heard of a dog going through a window (maybe it happens more in Ontario?) and I really don't know how a dog could go through the new heavy double paned glass that most houses and condos are currently built with. Further, it is my understanding that new apartments and condos are made using glass that is designed to take force since they are floor to ceiling windows. Finally, I don't see how RDM leaving her dogs in a dog room while she is at work is any different than most do with their dogs during the day and, in fact, is likely better since they are not confined to a crate. Damn, down to $0.14 cents - Chany stole some of my money.....

[melanie]

i knew a GSD that threw itself through a window to get to her owner, she didnt die or really hurt herself thank goodness and it was just normal window glass. charlie has never been in a crate and is more than happy to hang out in the yard when i go out. she has never had a problem with it, but she is excersised alot so that may have alot to do with it too. oh michelle you went and spent it all at once

[WOODY]

they live in a very small apartment in which the dog can not actually turn around in some rooms / he is loved and well look after in feed ect although he is very overweight./sammy was aquired to make someones ego feel good/

Maybe I'm a bit peevish this morning but how is a dog loved and well looked after when it lives in cramped quarters; is very overweight and is being used as a tool to bolster some apparent jerks's ego?

[Chany]

Well Woody as far as the overweight part alot of people overfeed their dogs. Kind of like killing them with kindness . I don't understand though if the dog can't turn around in the same room how in the heck are they living in it?

[Luba]

That tree better be very quiet falling in the forest if nobody is there!

Since of course if you don't hear it, it doesn't happen

[melanie]

it is an very old sydney town house, most are still designed this way (results of overpopulation), the townhouse has a width in some areas of 1.5meters mainly in the lounge room and kitchen, he can turn around in the small dining room and laundry but that is it. and he cannot go upstairs as the stairs are extremely small and steep. oh there is a tiny court yard that is bricked, one day there were weeds sticking through the cracks in bricks, i pulled them out. they were not happy, see sammy likes to pee on the weeds, poor boy.
they do love him, it would be impossible not to, but the majority of people i know do not see dogs like us, to them they are just another animal who dont have real feelings. i see it everywhere, you know the type, how many times have people said to me, 'oh for goodness sake, she is just a dog' or 'you let her live inside, well you know what they say, lie down with dogs you will wake with fleas' (the last man to say this to me i replied, 'as your wife very well knows' . and to them sammy has no illness so therefore he is looked after. sammy is not fat from over feeding, he is under excersised. yeah they take him to the park several times a day but he needs to run, he never runs anywhere, even out here i cannot get him to run, he just doesnt do it. and the name says alot, sampson, i know this bloke and he choose it for macho reasons. i just dont go to their house anymore, i cant deal with it, i would never let charlie go there, she would hate it. i think it is one of those thing where i have to conciously try to ignore it for my own peace of mind, i have told them a million times what i think, i am forever finding suitable rental properties for them and sending them the clippings for newspapers for houses, i suppose i had better just give up before i stress out even more, im just so sick of it and i find myself being disheartened daily, sometimes i actually worry that i am only 28yo and will have to watch this sort of destruction and abuse for the rest of my life, and i worry that i cannot do that, but what else is there??, oh often i have wished to be simple minded and uneducated so i wouldnt know any better. oh now im all crappy stupid human egos and destructive behaviour, ahhhhhh.

[Luba]

Mel, you're right in what you say by ignoring some things for your own piece of mind. It comes with time, as you learn to do what you can and forget about the rest. It doesn't make you a bad person or any less a person, it just makes you human!