deer cull

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by happycats

Well we have wolves, coyotes in our back yard and in previous places I've lived ,bears and cougars as well, and have yet to be "attacked" that's the problem, all the hype, and false fears destroying our wildlife. Oh the big bad wolf is gonna eat my kid! OMG please, most times when livestock was attacked in our area, it was a pack of domesticated dogs allowed to run loose by stupid owners, and not wolves and coyotes, but they were blamed as an excuse to blow their brains out.



Yup, and so have lions and tigers and bears and you don't see them all killing everything in sight just for the fun of it. FYI

The problem is some still think like caveman

Sorry if I think like a caveman.

Yes, I too have lived in areas where large predators roamed free. Personally, I don't have a problem with it.

Men (and women) who kill for the FUN of it - kill people. It is way to much work to HUNT and that takes the fun out of it. I know a lot of people who hunt and they do it for two reasons - to feed family and help control the deer population. They don't do it for "fun".

[Chris21711]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

I know a lot of people who hunt and they do it for two reasons - to feed family and help control the deer population. They don't do it for "fun".

I also know several people that hunt and while "fun" might not be the term to use, they do "enjoy" it......I fail to understand how one can enjoy killing.

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by happycats

It's ironic really, most here agree with this deer cull, but what about the cat and dog overpopulation?
Should they all be rounded up and killed ? OMG no way most of you would say. So really what's the difference ?


In many rural areas they round up all the stray dogs and shoot them, but that's horrible, terrible, and most here would be dead against it, and would be fighting to save them all !!

I guess it's just the difference between an animal lover and a pet lover

Well, here I go, thinkin' like a caveman again.

If it were up to me and a large population of dogs/cats were trying to survive in the wild, starving and freezing or carrying fatal disease - then yes, I would certainly agree that euthanization were a preferable ending. I also strongly disagree with no kill shelters who think that caging an animal for it's entire life is preferable to euthanizing.

[happycats]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

Sorry if I think like a caveman.

Yes, I too have lived in areas where large predators roamed free. Personally, I don't have a problem with it.

Men (and women) who kill for the FUN of it - kill people. It is way to much work to HUNT and that takes the fun out of it. I know a lot of people who hunt and they do it for two reasons - to feed family and help control the deer population. They don't do it for "fun".

Sorry I disagree, all the hunters I know kill for FUN (although they may not use the word fun, although I know some that do) I've heard, Thrill, Rush, adrenaline rush and sport, so really they kill for fun.
Feed a family! Sorry but I disagree, most hunters I know have hunting gear that cost more then an order of beef! not to mention the costs of a hunting license and the buck or tags, Sorry but hunting is a very expensive activity, so if you can afford to buy all that hunting gear, you can afford to buy food for your family.

[Chris21711]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

I also strongly disagree with no kill shelters who think that caging an animal for it's entire life is preferable to euthanizing.

Why would you kill a healthy animal in a shelter just because it has been there for an undue length of time, maybe one day that special person comes along and they live happily ever after....

[Chris21711]

Originally Posted by happycats

Feed a family! Sorry but I disagree, most hunters I know have hunting gear that cost more then an order of beef! not to mention the costs of a hunting license and the buck or tags, Sorry but hunting is a very expensive activity, so if you can afford to buy all that hunting gear, you can afford to buy food for your family.

I'm with you on that Happycats, my g/f's hubby spends a fortune.

I guess we are getting way off topic now

[happycats]

Originally Posted by Chris21711

I'm with you on that Happycats, my g/f's hubby spends a fortune.

I guess we are getting way off topic now

Thanks!

And yeah I guess we are .................

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by Chris21711

Why would you kill a healthy animal in a shelter just because it has been there for an undue length of time, maybe one day that special person comes along and they live happily ever after....

So, a puppy born in a no kill shelter should spend it's entire life in a cage waiting for that "perfect someone" to come along? Do you really think that is a good life for a dog? Of any size? After a year or two - you really need to redefine the word "healthy". While I am sure they are physically fine, but mentally, not so much. Other then the fact they aren't cranking out puppies twice a year - how is this any better then any puppy mill in any country?

Estimates say that the United States euthanizes well over a million dogs a year. Who decides which of these go to a kill shelter and which go to a no-kill shelter? If some didn't spend YEARS in a shelter, maybe room could be made for others who might be adopted.

[Chris21711]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

So, a puppy born in a no kill shelter should spend it's entire life in a cage waiting for that "perfect someone" to come along?

Our local OSPCA is the 2nd largest in Ontario, next to the Toronto Humane Society....any puppy born there, once placed up for adoption generally is adopted within days regardless of breed...That is a fact.

Do you really think that is a good life for a dog? Of any size? After a year or two - you really need to redefine the word "healthy". While I am sure they are physically fine, but mentally, not so much.

Some animals do go "stir crazy", every effort is made to alleviate this problem from occurring...that is a fact.

Other then the fact they aren't cranking out puppies twice a year - how is this any better then any puppy mill in any country?

Please, there is absolutely no comparison.

Estimates say that the United States euthanizes well over a million dogs a year.

Sadly that appears to be the truth :sad:

Who decides which of these go to a kill shelter and which go to a no-kill shelter?

I'm guessing that that depends on the location of the animal in question.

If some didn't spend YEARS in a shelter, maybe room could be made for others who might be adopted.

So basically you are saying euthanize one to make room for another....just doesn't make any sense.

This thread has gone completely

[Golden Girls]

regarding topic ...

Yep x'mas eve a conversation turned into deer hunting and the word fun, cheaper to fill the freezer, a sport - their right was the main topic ... these same people own their homes, beautiful 4X4's, boats - "FUN" for many as stated.

Culling isn't bringing down the numbers, actually it's sportmen that contribute in restoring of game animals ie increase in food resources due to a sudden "cull" in the population induces a high reproduction rate hence necessitates repeating culling ... Geesh we've invented Vitro yet can't figure this out

It'll cost tax payers approx $172 per deer culled. Besides the expense of operating a cull it's very costly processing the meat for the under privledged. Since this money appears to be available why not help them feed their family for 2 weeks ... much healthier too.

IMO we should figure out how to manage and control our own population before setting out to detroy whatever we want - ruining just about everything and taking over once-rural areas , where the animals have learnt or forced to adapt - why can't we?

Deer management: Relocate to other mountains, build fencing, sterilize, I don't know but to continue to be predators isn't working. Some will starve just as some will be injured in the cull but if left alone their numbers will reduce drastically. Once upon a time deer were almost instinct so whose creating what problem exactly?

Poor Bambi ... off to hug a tree, if I can still find one that is!

[happycats]

Originally Posted by Golden Girls

regarding topic ...

Yep x'mas eve a conversation turned into deer hunting and the word fun, cheaper to fill the freezer, a sport - their right was the main topic ... these same people own their homes, beautiful 4X4's, boats - "FUN" for many as stated.

Culling isn't bringing down the numbers, actually it's sportmen that contribute in restoring of game animals ie increase in food resources due to a sudden "cull" in the population induces a high reproduction rate hence necessitates repeating culling ... Geesh we've invented Vitro yet can't figure this out

It'll cost tax payers approx $172 per deer culled. Besides the expense of operating a cull it's very costly processing the meat for the under privledged. Since this money appears to be available why not help them feed their family for 2 weeks ... much healthier too.

IMO we should figure out how to manage and control our own population before setting out to detroy whatever we want - ruining just about everything and taking over once-rural areas , where the animals have learnt or forced to adapt - why can't we?

Deer management: Relocate to other mountains, build fencing, sterilize, I don't know but to continue to be predators isn't working. Some will starve just as some will be injured in the cull but if left alone their numbers will reduce drastically. Once upon a time deer were almost instinct so whose creating what problem exactly?

Poor Bambi ... off to hug a tree, if I can still find one that is!

Well said !

If I didn;t live so far, I'd come and hug a tree with you, I guess I have a few around here that need hugging

[happycats]

Originally Posted by Chris21711

So basically you are saying euthanize one to make room for another....just doesn't make any sense.

This thread has gone completely

Very well said !!!

[Love4himies]

Whether hunters find the "sport" fun or not, and I think 99% do, otherwise they wouldn't do it, is not the point. The point is there are far too many deer than what the land can feed, so there are choices to be made:

1. Let nature take it's course.



2. Human intervention.

Human intervention can be as GG stated:

Round them up and move them or cull them. My heart wants them rounded up and moved, but by the time beaurocracy moves on this huge project we will be into next year, because we know how fast the gov't works , plus the justification to the taxpayers of the huge cost involved .

Feed them: but that would add to even a bigger problem next year.

Cull them: :sad: and hope that the strong do survive and are able to find enough food to get them through to spring.

Is there really a "right" thing to do to lessen the suffering of these deer?

[happycats]

how about sterilization, or birth control
Why does the answer always have to be to blow their heads off :sad:

This is just so sad because these ansmals have no fear at all of man and will even eat out of your hands, so have no idea of the threat that will soon befall them :sad: It's just like a game ranch.

[Love4himies]

Not sure about sterilization or birth control for deer, I have never heard of that, but is a good idea for animals in parks where there are few or no predators.

[happycats]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Not sure about sterilization or birth control for deer, I have never heard of that, but is a good idea for animals in parks where there are few or no predators.

There is something out there, http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publicatio...bc_deer_08.pdf

[erykah1310]

Originally Posted by happycats

Sorry I disagree, all the hunters I know kill for FUN (although they may not use the word fun, although I know some that do) I've heard, Thrill, Rush, adrenaline rush and sport, so really they kill for fun.
Feed a family! Sorry but I disagree, most hunters I know have hunting gear that cost more then an order of beef! not to mention the costs of a hunting license and the buck or tags, Sorry but hunting is a very expensive activity, so if you can afford to buy all that hunting gear, you can afford to buy food for your family.

Your right, the gear for hunting is expensive, we have one gun here that cost over $2500 and thats just one of many considering we hunt everything from rabbit, bush chicken, moose ,deer, bear and soon caribou, licencing is not that costly....
But we DO do it to feed ourselves. You can argue that we are nothing more than blood thirsty slaughterers who love nothing morel than to wake up one early fall morning and head out to kill what we can for the pure joy in it.
When in reality (for us) it is all about filling our freezers, making gloves and mocassins, tanning hides and feeding dogs "scrap" and bones. I personally would much rather kill an animal who has had a lovely life grazing, running free and eating NATURAL diets than eat a cow raised in a commercial meat barn being fed to grow fast and killed with never seeing a day on pasture. Some years it is young animals we end up hunting, some years its the older "trophy" animals we hunt... point being, regardless of what is shot and killed for our consumption it is ALL used by us. No animal is killed and left.
So while we could theoretically afford to do away with the rifles and shot guns and fill our freezers with as much meat as the grocery store can supply us with we choose not to.
Same with fishing can you believe we are also avid fishermen? We ourselves sit out on the "expensive" boat with our expensive rods, expensive lures/baits and crazy redneck hillbilly friends and fish a whole day away. Do you believe it we all get together that evening and EAT them We could save ourselves tons of money and go to the store and buy some frozen crappy fish like haddock as apposed to wasting our days and money for fresher than fresh northern pike, pickeral (walleye to our american neighbours) large and small mouth bass ect. But in all honesty the fishing itself is indeed fun and thrilling and in the end, tasty as could be. If its a great day fishing ( as there are limits to number of fish you can catch same as deer, moose, ect) we will go park the boats along the shore and actually fry up a shore lunch of fish and go back out just to eat even more of it that night. How barbaric of us.:sad:

I think before the whole "there is no need to kill for our own selfish needs such as food" arguement arises one should take a look at how the animals you or your loved ones eat out of grocery stores are treated to do nothing else but satisfy your hunger. Have you seen laying hens in commercial egg farms? Have you seen what your tasty veal goes through to end up on your plate? I have, and choose not to support that means of aquiring my foods.
Someone had better call PETA or the OSPCA on us tomorrow morning as we are heading out to the field with a trailer and the dogs to chase 2 unsuspecting cows into it and haul them off to the butchers for no other reason than to feed our families:sad: when we could just drive down the road for a cheaper price and buy some

There is nothing more insulting to me than people who really refuse to see the positive side of killing wild animals for food. For every animal we hunt or raise for food that is one less that has to suffer and not be able to be "free" or experience grazing or even moving at all to feed us by means of grocery store

[Love4himies]

erykah: I have a coworker who is a vegetarian and does not eat meat because of the moral reasons you have posted (she doesn't eat venison because she doesn't know any hunters). My chats with her and living out in the country has changed my view on ETHICAL hunters tremdously. I would much rather see a deer shot and die quickly than starve to death when the winters are harsh.

[erykah1310]

Another thing we shoot and kill is Canada Geese, thanksgiving, christmas ect we seldomly eat turkey but instead have goose or even duck.
Its a preference and I for one am proud and happy that we have the option to feed ourselves the way we do.
There is good and bad for everything in life.
Drivers, breeders, hunters, fisherman, rescues, people in general...
and the point EVERYONE needs to understand is that just because you may not agree with it, you should accept that when the "good" or "ethical" are doing it, there are reasons beyond what you may see as convienience or selfeshness behind it.
Hunting is not so much a right as it is a privelage. And yes it can be taken away (ie poaching, killing out of season or killing what you do not have a tag for) in this event your meat is taken, guns and possibly vehicles and you are fined heavily.
We have MNR (ministry of natural resources) here and they DO patrol and check. We have left from trout fishing several times and been stopped only to have their detection dogs run through our trucks, sniff our hubcaps ect to see if we have more than our 2 trout per licenced fisherman limit.
Its the circle of life, animals live and die, weather it be to feed a family regardless if they could afford to eat by other means or if it is a lifestyle health concious choice. It happens.

A mass cull is not done on a regular basis, but even here we have controlled burns by MNR which is nothing more than a forest fire destroying habitat for many creatures and perhaps killing some in the process, but it is done when there has been something catastrophic like a tornado or windstorm has taken down the majority of an area causing more of a risk to be left for nature to clean up and potentially catching fire destroying hectares as apposed to a few acres.
yes human are encroaching on wildlife but in reality how many stip malls does one city need? In sudbury right now, there is more building of super stores happening that one city needs, other than for convinience. 2 walmarts for example, so that people living in the south end do not need to drive across town (30 minutes in decent traffic) to use the one that is there???? But hey its all about the city folk needing to go buy their beef from the walmart freezers at their convieneince and not having to waste a whole lot of time or money to do so.

[Golden Girls]

Oh Deer, back to the regular scheduled program ...

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Not sure about sterilization or birth control for deer, I have never heard of that, but is a good idea for animals in parks where there are few or no predators.

Thanks for adding that link HappyCats. The contraceptive vaccine called GonaCon has been developed and is presently being studied/tested and in the experimental stage awaiting approval from the EPA. It's said to show promise they'll be a right time and right place, IMO worth the research though!

I'm so city hence my ignorange on this subject other then I love deer therefore would love to hear people prefer to find another solution other then kill animals which bring me to my question.

It seems to me bowhunting is an inhumane way to control their population. In this thread members mentions sharpshooting is crueler - may I ask what you mean? I'd think one shot is better then a deer wounded & bled out. It's hard to even question this without feeling queezy but I do want to know

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Golden Girls

Oh Deer, back to the regular scheduled program ...
Thanks for adding that link HappyCats. The contraceptive vaccine called GonaCon has been developed and is presently being studied/tested and in the experimental stage awaiting approval from the EPA. It's said to show promise they'll be a right time and right place, IMO worth the research though!

I'm so city hence my ignorange on this subject other then I love deer therefore would love to hear people prefer to find another solution other then kill animals which bring me to my question.

It seems to me bowhunting is an inhumane way to control their population. In this thread members mentions sharpshooting is crueler - may I ask what you mean? I'd think one shot is better then a deer wounded & bled out. It's hard to even question this without feeling queezy but I do want to know

The whole tragedy is if either the bow or the bullet does not take the animal down with one shot. I have been on a hunt as a spectator and I was absolutely impressed at some of these hunters that took down an animal instantly. Now for others that 'missed' and had to chase down their prey - that was disgusting.

Many years back I watched the feeding of deer in one particular area. During hunting season, the hunters gathered in that area for their kill. This was totally unacceptable in my eyes as these animals were used to being well fed and without threat. The following year I was arrested with my horse for disrupting this cruel hunt. It was worth the buns and water.

[happycats]

Like I said there are other ways to control the situation besides Killing them, and as I said before, some people just enjoy killing for whatever reason, to fill freezers or to take part in the fun and exciting cull!!! WOO HOOO they must be so excited to be able to hunt these fearless unsupecting creatures, who will probably walk right up to them looking for food.......what a thrill that will be !!!!

I know and have been around many many hunters, and it is a thrill, fun, exciting, and quite often a BIG celebration after the "hunt" which quite often includes a big drunk fest, and the sick stories about how that one that was only wounded (bleeding everywhere) got away and they never could find it, or how the first shot didn't kill it so the had to track it for miles before finally finding it and killing as they all laugh joyously about it.

And don't even start with me about the MNR!!!! I have known a few to turn a blind eye (to poaching, or going over limits) for cash, and you know how those hunters who can afford all that expenive gear can easily pay off the MNR person !! I was also told by a hunter how he got caught poaching, and cried to the MNR guy that his family was starving and that's why he did it and the MNR guy let him go!!! (that hunter was far from poor,and even farther from starving)

[Chris21711]

M N R - Ministry of No Response

[happycats]

Originally Posted by BenMax

The following year I was arrested with my horse for disrupting this cruel hunt. It was worth the buns and water.

way to BenMax!!!!

When we had our trailer, (right on the water) the hunters would set up their blinds really close so every time I would see ducks or geese I would start quacking REALLY REALLY loud and scare everything off !! The hunters would get really PO"D

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by happycats

Like I said there are other ways to control the situation besides Killing them, and as I said before, some people just enjoy killing for whatever reason, to fill freezers or to take part in the fun and exciting cull!!! WOO HOOO they must be so excited to be able to hunt these fearless unsupecting creatures, who will probably walk right up to them looking for food.......what a thrill that will be !!!!

I know and have been around many many hunters, and it is a thrill, fun, exciting, and quite often a BIG celebration after the "hunt" which quite often includes a big drunk fest, and the sick stories about how that one that was only wounded (bleeding everywhere) got away and they never could find it, or how the first shot didn't kill it so the had to track it for miles before finally finding it and killing as they all laugh joyously about it.

And don't even start with me about the MNR!!!! I have known a few to turn a blind eye (to poaching, or going over limits) for cash, and you know how those hunters who can afford all that expenive gear can easily pay off the MNR person !! I was also told by a hunter how he got caught poaching, and cried to the MNR guy that his family was starving and that's why he did it and the MNR guy let him go!!! (that hunter was far from poor,and even farther from starving)

I hear you.

I always form an opinion on what I actually see or participate in. I could say that hunting and/or culling is a horrific way to feed ones family but to actually witness it is another thing all together. Lets face it - hunting is a sport and so it should be since it deals with accuracy. If you are not accurate, the animal suffers. This goes for slaughter houses and even anyone who humanely euthanizes an animal. If you miss - they do not go down easy.

[Love4himies]

Part of ethical hunting is to only make the shot if you are sure of a clean, fast kill. A clean bow shot can take a deer down pretty quickly and you need to be pretty close to make the shot. That makes it more of a sport than using high power rifles because the deer have a much better chance to get away.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Part of ethical hunting is to only make the shot if you are sure of a clean, fast kill. A clean bow shot can take a deer down pretty quickly and you need to be pretty close to make the shot. That makes it more of a sport than using high power rifles because the deer have a much better chance to get away.

Very true.

My concern is this: How many hunters are actually seasoned hunters? How many of these people actually know what they are doing so that there is no suffering? Unfortunately there is no answer to this. Just about anyone can hunt and no one is really monitoring their skills. For me it is not so much that animals will be killed, it is about the calibre of the people doing this.

I have to add - I don't know what the 'party' is all about after such a venture. I don't really understand what there is to celebrate. Death is sad, no matter why or who is doing it. It's just sad.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by BenMax

Very true.

My concern is this: How many hunters are actually seasoned hunters? How many of these people actually know what they are doing so that there is no suffering? Unfortunately there is no answer to this. Just about anyone can hunt and no one is really monitoring their skills. For me it is not so much that animals will be killed, it is about the calibre of the people doing this.

I have to add - I don't know what the 'party' is all about after such a venture. I don't really understand what there is to celebrate. Death is sad, no matter why or who is doing it. It's just sad.

Absolutely right.

[happycats]

Originally Posted by BenMax

I have to add - I don't know what the 'party' is all about after such a venture. I don't really understand what there is to celebrate. Death is sad, no matter why or who is doing it. It's just sad.

I never understood that either, it sickens me, but it seems like most hunters have an (after hunt) party. That's why I said most hunters think hunting is "fun" .

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned hunting is NOT a sport, as Paul Rodriguez once said “Hunting is not a sport. In a sport, both sides should know they're in the game.”

Or, "if hunting was a sport the animals would have guns too"

Or "A sport is a physical competition between 2 or more parties who mutually agree to a set of rules by which their relative success will be determined. I missed the part where the deer signed up for this ****. They are trying to survive and you are trying to kill them. The prey is not deliberately constrained by any set of rules. This is not a game."

[BenMax]

HappyCats - I get you 100%. I do. But I must put this into play:

Though I appreciate your logic around what is considered 'sport', I have to disagree as it is just not logical. Hunting to me is a sport. It's about precision. It is a very tactful, calculating and deals with a tremendous amount of patience. I am not talking about some kid going hunting with daddy and pointing a rifle at any animal in sight. There is much more to hunting than that.

Good hunters (and there are some) are very seasoned. It is not a game to them as it is their intent to ensure that the animal is killed with one clean shot. IF not, they are humiliated and they may not be included in further future excursions. For these hunters, this is taken with great care and there is no room for errors.

I am not justifying hunting, but I thought it important to let you know that I was actually there to witness and form my own opinion. I have a greater understanding and greater knowledge.