considering e-collar... opinions needed please

[MyBirdIsEvil]

I think something like that would probably work ok for teaching heel (since heel is a target command) once your dog knows how to not pull on the leash, but I don't see how it would serve much of a use with a heavy puller because that particular dog needs to learn that if it pulls it's not going anywhere first.
That's where prong collars and stuff come into place because a 110 lb dog with no leash manners is going to be able to drag you down the street if all you're doing is holding onto a leash connected to a flat collar.

[Inverness]

You can either chose to make your dog heel with coercion or with cooperation. Whatever the weight of your dog, both methods work, it all depends on the way you see things and the amount of work you want to invest. The point in heeling is having your dog behave as if he had no collar and leash, and so the type of restraint he is wearing should not play any part, providing you teach him what you expect. Not saying it is always easy though...

[Prin]

That sucks, technodoll. Maybe the fur is too thick and dulls the effect... You should feed your dog ol' roy for a while so the fur will thin out, become all sickly and then the collar will work. (do I really have to tell you all that that is sarcasm?)

Good luck finding another method though.

[technodoll]

LOL! prin you don't even have to mention it, i know how you think and was LMAO!! we're back to training with the combo-collar (flat nylon collar, but martingale-style so it's not a complete choker), and he's much better now because he's getting the drift that we're not pushovers anymore. yey!!

[tenderfoot]

I am sorry to be jumping in so late - especially on a 3 page thread. I have been gone for month and am late on everything these days.

Inverness has made some very good points. All of the gimmicks you can try won't teach your dog to have manners without the gimmick. As long as you rely on a gimmick or treats so does your dog. It typically won't hold for the long run when you are working with distance and distractions.

Simply walking one step in the direction your dog is pulling teaches him to pull, and he will do it more everyday and pull harder to get where he wants to go. There is another post on pulling/carting which describes how to teach a dog to pull - most people are experts at teaching it and their dogs are champions at pulling.

Your walks should be about where you want to go not about where he wants to go. Don't think you are going to go from point A to point B or to the park or around the block. He goes forward only as long as he has manners. This could be 1 step at a time until his brain kicks in and he starts caring about what you want.

Dogs that pull not only learned it from their people but are also typically in charge of their own world a great majority of the day. They do what they want to 24/7. The walk is no different - they are pulling you where they want to go. So often this can be about so much more that the pulling itself. How well does your dog do 30 things at distances and with distractions? How good is he in general? This is about respecting the leader and not being so independent that he blows the leader off and yanks him around. You see grown men being pulled around by their toy poodles so it shouldn't be about size - it is about engaging the brain. Granted an Akita is strong but if he is being asked to think about his behavior then his size shouldn't matter.

We start with the '2-step dance' before we ever go on walks. But very quickly the walks are successful because we created a good foundation for manners. Manners are simply NO pulling and NO walking in front of me.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Iverness, I think you may have mistook what I mean.
I'm not saying to use a choke chain or something to yank on your dog and teach him where to go.
The only reason I use one on my dog is because it makes ME feel more secure that my dog won't be able to run off and get hit by a car or something. Also, she feels the chain pull on her neck quicker so it doesn't get to the point where she's pulling against her flat collar and I'm having to drag her along.
When training my dog not to pull, as soon as the leash becomes taught in the least I change direction and click at her with my tongue (she already knows when I click at her to pay attention), this causes her to look at me and also change direction and she learns that if she follows me the pressure on her will disappear. When she's walking beside me I give her lots of praise (though not excitedly because this will get her hyper and make her want to pull).
I NEVER use a leash to train my dog inside , it's just not necessary, but outside there's so many things that could happen to her it's necessary. All the chain does is prevent her from becoming fixated or running after something , like I said it is NOT a no-pull device.
Honestly when we're out somewhere like the river where there's no traffic or people I don't even leash her because I don't need as quick a reaction time from her. There's also more distance to work with. For example, she starts to lead ahead of me, I can turn around and keep walking the other way, suddenly she'll notice that I'm ignoring her and she'll come follow me instead (this has actually helped with her leash pulling too).
There is no danger of her running off and getting hit by a car or something.

The BEST way to teach your dog not to pull is to set the proper foundation as SOON as you get them as a puppy, but for some of us that's not possible.
When I got my puppy I didn't know much about dog training and I had to learn everything as I went.

I'm not suggesting people do what I do, I know my dog, and I know what works best for her.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

providing you teach him what you expect

Sorry I just wanna respond to that (I know I'm typing too much). I'm not disagreeing with you I just wanted to add on to that.

A dog can know what you expect but it doesn't mean the dog will want to do it.
You still need set rules and boundries for the dog and give it a stable enviroment or else it won't WANT to follow anything you tell it to do.

It took me a long time to learn that, and lots of people still don't get it.

[tenderfoot]

Which is why it comes down to leadership. Provide good leadership and your dog will do as you ask. If he doesn't respect you but respects the collar - then he is not working with you he is working for the collar.

[technodoll]

in the house, dakotah does everything we expect him to do and alot more. His manners are impeccable and he is the best behaved dog ever. We have used the NILIF training method since the first day he came home and it has worked like a charm. Outside is another story: his off-leash recall is very reliable albeit sometimes he takes his sweet time responding. Once the leash is on though... it's like he loses all respect for whoever is on the other end of the leash, it's baffling. he knows how to heel perfectly well, but he chooses not to respond or only respond grudgingly.

I know we are responsible for this because we let him get away with it for so long, and now he is testing us to see if we will give him that proverbial inch so he can take the paw. If we get REALLY pissed and scold him loudly, he will just sit in the heel position and give us a "high-five". then he will walk well until the next distraction... if he is tired, he heels. If we are walking back towards home, he heels. if he sees another dog... all bets are off. I've started making him Sit/ Stay when another dog passes by, and it helps a LOT. Walks are a constant training session, watching & correcting & praising & doing the turns, the stops, the positioning, etc. Not very pleasant, specially with two dogs and crowded sidewalks, but it has to be done!

i'm really curious though, WHY he does this. He's a very smart dog, he respects us, he knows his place in the pack, he knows how to heel... is this his little form of rebellion? his way of saying "you're not the boss of me all the time"?

[MyBirdIsEvil]

if he is tired, he heels

Maybe he just doesn't have enough exercise in general, I know that's a lot of my dogs problem. Aren't akitas fairly high drive dogs? My dog can swim for about 6 hours straight and barely tire out, that's how high drive she is, so I know that's lots of her problem.
I'm actually planning on getting her a treadmill to exercise on because when it's extremely hot out, like it's been for months now, I can't exercise her outside much (unless it's in the river which I can't go to every day) as she gets overheated easy. My house isn't very big so running her around indoors doesn't work. At night, when it's a little cooler the mosquitos attack us (I live in southeast missouri surrounded by rice fields and all kindsa swampy areas), and even OFF bug spray doesn't help.
I know exericise helps a lot, when we take her to the river she's EXTREMELY well behaved on and off leash because she's having fun and being active.
I'm also thinking about teaching her weight pulling/carting, which I saw in another thread, because it seems like something that we could do outside and she could use her brain and burn off some energy, plus it could be like a little job for her.

Not very pleasant, specially with two dogs and crowded sidewalks, but it has to be done!

Maybe you could try taking them out more one on one 'til he gets the hang of it, that's what I do a lot with my dogs.

[tenderfoot]

In other words he is great if it suits him.

He is in the habit of bolting when he sees other dogs. Thats his habit and it has worked for him. Stopping might work in certain situations but you need to stop the thought before it becomes and action and get his mind busy and on you.

I would work on your speed of interruption. for a while you should try to change what you are doing with him every 5-10 steps. Changes direction, speed, stop, TURN INTO HIM a lot. As much as you can don't use the leash just your body language. Of course you have the leash on but try not to use it unless you have to. In the beginning you might need it a lot but then see if he will cue to your voice or body. Exaggerate your actions so that he can cue in. i.e. when you stop scuff your foot loudly and stop abruptly.

If you can stop the thought before it becomes an action then you are changing his habits and preventing the adrenalin rush that comes with going after other dogs.

The micro-second he sees another dog - when he first raises his brow or twitches an ear - you cut right into his shoulder and do a 180 turn into him. Walk away - work on drills - be a bigger distraction than the other dog. Each time you head towards the other dog you should be able to get 2 steps closer. Progress. Soon you will be able to walk past the other dog with no lunging. Don't forget to reinforce the 'leave it' command if he starts towards that dog.

[dogmelissa]

Originally Posted by technodoll

in the house, dakotah does everything we expect him to do and alot more. His manners are impeccable and he is the best behaved dog ever. We have used the NILIF training method since the first day he came home and it has worked like a charm. Outside is another story: his off-leash recall is very reliable albeit sometimes he takes his sweet time responding. Once the leash is on though... it's like he loses all respect for whoever is on the other end of the leash, it's baffling. he knows how to heel perfectly well, but he chooses not to respond or only respond grudgingly.

<snip>

I've been reading this for awhile without having any input mostly because I have an extremely small dog (Maltese X, 9 lbs), and if he decides he wants to pull, it isn't difficult for me to get him to stop.
I wanted to reply today to mention one thing that I saw on TV, in Stanley Coren's "Good Dog" show. He said that, to a dog, a leash is (or should be) an extension of their master's arm. He recommended a dog *always* be trained on leash, because then they will learn that the leash means they're connected to you and they can't just go and do their own thing.
I know that probably doesn't help you very much, but I really don't know what else to tell you. Perhaps something like agility or flyball would provide a place to train him and give him & the other dog the ability to blow off some steam as well as playing with other dogs.
I'm sorry that you're having such a difficult time with him, and I hope that you can find a way to teach him. Have you considered enlisting the other dog to help you? What kind of dog is the other? Is he anywhere near the same size? Could you use a leash splitter to connect them and then praise the other dog for not pulling? Often a well-behaved dog who is getting praised can be the best teacher to a dog who isn't behaving well and realized that he is getting no praise.

You might also want to consider carrying your dog's regular food around during your walks (for treats), and not feeding him at home at all. Perhaps a few days of not eating will make him realize that pulling is a bad idea. I've seen this work for other dogs (a drug-sniffing beagle), but it may or may not work for you.

Good luck.
Melissa

[technodoll]

thank you so much for all the helpful advice everyone! made hubby read it since he walks dakotah most of the time (i have maika) and he's applying most of the techniques and doing his best to remember the tips. i don't see any real improvement yet over a few weeks ago (but those are much better than a few months ago so we're on the good path i think), and that's because i noticed tonight that hubby is NOT consistent in many things. i tried to explain to him that you wouldn't expect a young child to understand why he can only stay up late and watch tv on a saturday night and not the other nights of the week, right? well when he "chooses" to let dakotah drag him to sniff another dog's butt while walking on the leash just because the other owner ok'd it, well that is SO wrong. the dog then assumes this behavior is ok so why change? anyways... let's hope the advice sinks in soon!

[rainbow]

and that's because i noticed tonight that hubby is NOT consistent in many things. i tried to explain to him

LOL....I can certainly relate to that !!! Most hubbies are never consistant when it comes to things that are important to us.

[technodoll]

Most hubbies are never consistant when it comes to things that are important to us.

and then they complain that we NAG! if they only did what they're supposed to do in the first place... grumble grumble i swear, men have a gene that blocks them from changing the toilet paper roll or seeing grease splatters on the stove!

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Well I for one can say my b/f is COMPLETELY consistent with our dog.

See:

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=29484

His reasoning is "but she's so cute and cuddly!"

[jesse's mommy]

I know that my honey is also consistent. He is so consistent he wonders why Jesse mouths him and paws at him to get what she wants -- and of course, she does.

[rainbow]

LOL, Jesse's Mommy. Your hubby and my hubby must be clones.