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View Poll Results: Who do you prefer, Brad or Cesar?
Brad 17 14.17%
Cesar 71 59.17%
Neither 29 24.17%
Both are equal 3 2.50%
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  #151  
Old February 27th, 2009, 12:42 PM
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Bailey_ Bailey_ is offline
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to jakhi

Thanks for your input on this subject. I've been finding it quite interesting, everyone's opinions and ideals about behavioral training (which clicker training is *not*, and yes, I have been involved with clicker training and have clients who have come to me after quite unsuccessful sessions with it - in particular a very stubborn South African Boerboel and her owner) and think it's great that there's so much awareness about what people like and don't like.

You asked if I have read anything not given to me by Brad Pattison, and I the answer is a resounding yes. I would not be the kind of dog trainer or rehabilitator I want to be, if I had not. My training experience did not start with Brad Pattison either, rather I took four years of schooling to learn animal behavior through Everest College; have six years working with two different established dog training schools in BC, and have been running my own business for four years. I have experience with treat training, clicker training, agility training, and behavioral training. I have my degree in animal science, and have had the awesome opportunity to visit the Wolf Park in Indianna.
I am very well aware of a canines body language and have much more education under my belt than what I've had the pleasure and opportunity to learn from Brad.

I completley agree with you that if something makes you uncomfortable - then you shouldn't do it. Just like I think clicker training is a complete waste of time, some people will think that Brads methods are whooey. I would never clicker train any of my clients dogs, or my own, and those who don't like Brad should find what works for them. Absolutley.

Brad gives a strong correction, for a dog that needs it. In the dominant dog world, a nice light correction to innterupt the dog - simply does not work. What do you think would be more stressful and annoying on the dog? One firm correction that it can understand? Or a million little useless tugs here and there, which do nothing but aggrivate the dog and the situation?
He does not however give a strong correction for dogs that don't need them, and by saying he does, it's obvious to me that you've never seen Brad in action - watching a video clip on youtube or a tv show for half an hour does not even come close to experiencing the truth behind his methods or teachings. Simple as that. I would be much more inclined to listen to those of you who *have* met Brad, been to one of his classes, discussed his reasoning to his face, asked your questions; than those of you who are making judgement calls and assumptions based on 'what tv shows you'.

As far as what you're saying about him lifting the leash and pulling it to the dogs rear - that's completley wrong and is not the way he uses that particular excercise to make the dog sit. Like I said previously, tv is not the right way to assess his training tools.

As far as the tree excercise goes, like I said previously, it's a real life everyday tool to show the dog that they are to focus on their owner. It absolutley in no way harms the animal, I run poles and tree's with all of my dogs and my clients dogs, and at the end of the exercise we have satisfied - happy - content dogs; their minds are being worked, they learn how to respond quickly, and it's extremley fun for both dog and owner. Just like when we take the dogs over benches, through thickly wooded areas, downtown around street lamps, etc. There are *many* ways to teach a dog to watch where you are going. This is one of them, which does not harm the dog in ANY WAY. That is all.

His goals are and always have been to teach the dog to be in real life situations, with a lot of distractions, and yet to watch the owner. Which is why, if a dog he trained was surrendered, the family would essentially have a wonderfully well-rounded dog that looked to it's new owner for direction.

In regards to his pinning exercise (another word for that is 'lie down') what exactly did you find disturbing about that? I'm curious.

I highly encourage YOU now, to be more active in the dog-training world. Watching a show and actually talking to a trainer; are two different things. If I had never had experience with clicker training, I absolutley would not comment on it. Just a few thoughts.

Thankyou for yours.

Last edited by Bailey_; February 27th, 2009 at 01:03 PM.
  #152  
Old February 27th, 2009, 12:50 PM
maui_blue_eyes maui_blue_eyes is offline
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Pawbaby,

I really think you should contact the SPCA about what you witnessed at the seminar. I encourage anyone who has seen any kind of abuse to do the same. The SPCA cannot act unless these incidents get reported.
  #153  
Old February 27th, 2009, 03:32 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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As a former Brad follower, notice the former, I discovered that his methods weren't working for my dog and yes I've been to one of his seminars and done one of his street safety classes in Ottawa.

I can't really see how clicker training is a waste of time. I suppose though if you subscribe to the whole dominance theory pile of you know what and believe Brad's theory that every dog is trying to run your household and control your life given half an inch of leeway then I suppose clicker training won't work for you. So if clicker training doesn't work then why do the methods in the book Click to Calm work. I suppose you've read it? (Bailey)

I see so many Brad people claim that treats don't work or they have to keep using them. Umm so far my dog is 'treat trained' and I don't need a treat to have her sit or down or stay or come from across a field when she's out running. I don't even have to call her in that situation, just start moving away from her and she comes running. I also use a clicker for teaching tricks, which by the way works very well. I also use targeting.

I guess for people who want a dog who doesn't have much of an opportunity to think for themselves and just want a passive house dog then go ahead and train with his ways. I much prefer a dog who can think and learn and enjoy it. I'd much rather see a dog heeling and watching it's handler with a wagging tail and happy expression then one heeling because it knows it will get jerked back into position if it puts a foot ahead.
  #154  
Old February 27th, 2009, 04:04 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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All I can say is that dog training is not cookie cutter. Every dog is as unique as we humans are. What works on one does not necessarily work on another.

I am old school but have learnt various training methods from other trainers and just the everyday person. What ever I don't agree with I discard. I usually use a process of elimination to see what works best for the dogs.

Most dogs I get are either aggressive or terrified. Even for these two types of behaviours (from one extreme to the other) is not generic for every case I get.

For me however, I am not a good 'clicker trainer' - due to coordination perhaps. (but I am serious). NILF has been perfect for me though I do throw in a few 'alterations' here and there.

I think in general if you watch either Brad or Caeser you have to get something out of it. You may learn from them what you don't want to be - but at least you learnt something.
  #155  
Old February 27th, 2009, 04:09 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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NILIF is a great method too, and I have used it as well. I find it works great for a dog who's too smart for their own good and has a bit of a stubborn streak as well. Mine has learned that the front door isn't going to open until your butt is firmly planted on the floor and now she doesn't need to be asked to sit to have her leash put on. Stopped using treats for that a loooong time ago, now the going outside is reward enough.
  #156  
Old February 27th, 2009, 11:38 PM
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BenMax - I absolutley agree with you. Certain types of training don't always work for certain people or their dogs, and it's great to explore different options that are successful for both owner and dog.

Pattymac - As I said in one of my comments, I am personally not a believer in clicker training - nor would I ever reccomend it for any of my clients or their dogs. I'm glad it's worked for you - just like behavioral training has worked for me. I never said it didn't work, I said it's a complete waste of time - which means that I (again) would never bother with it.
As far as clicker training is concerned - no, I have not read that book you talked about. I worked in a dog training facility for a number of years where clicker training was the main method of training; and not only did I see many unsuccessful experiences with owners and their dogs - a number of dogs became aggressive towards the clicker. Which again, is why I am a firm believer that if something's not working for you - then you should not do it. As I said before and will say again, I do not believe in clicker training. It does not mean that it wouldn't work for someone else.

I do however find it interesting that you said something about the 'dominance theory'. Many, many dogs that see Brad are very submissive animals; so it has nothing to do with dominance. The difference in itself is establishing oneself as a confident pack leader, giving the dog direction. There is a difference between having your dog 'like you' and actually respecting you. And when I use the term 'respect', I'm not talking about dominating.
I have taught clients that don't need to display any tugging or pulling or yanking of the leash. They simply need to realize *how* to reaffirm themselves as the dogs leader, and their situation changes for the better; the dog is happier, more relaxed, and the bond between owner and dog grows.
Brad's methods have helped hundreds of thousands of people gain a great trusting relationship with their animal. If it didn't work for you, then I am very glad you've found something that does.

The reason I loved his training methods so much were because they were so real. They actually DID give the dog opportunity to think for itself, think on it's feet, react with distractions available and taught outdoors in natural settings; not in a building without cars or people on bikes or little kids screaming and laughing. If anything, Brads methods gave the dogs such a well-rounded and exciting atmosphere, that I'm not really sure what you're talking about when you say - a passive house dog. A dog that respects the rules in the house? Yes. A dog that does not think and does not enjoy life? No. A dog that is able to experience many different situations? Yes. A dog that becomes some sort of clicker zombie? No.

That's the great thing about the dog world - many different types of training out there.

Last edited by Bailey_; February 27th, 2009 at 11:51 PM.
  #157  
Old February 28th, 2009, 12:53 AM
jakhi jakhi is offline
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Bailey_: I would love to have the opportunity to work with Brad. I wish he would give seminars to trainers (not just 'dog owners' but professional trainers) around the country. I actually found out about his last seminar near my house the day after it ran.

That being said I wouldn't bring my dog. The reason for that being the exact thing that horrified me on the forum.

Brad's book, which I can't currently find the name of, suggests a method of training called 'Pinning'. This means you use either a 'soft pin' (stand on the leash and slid your foot until the dog is forced to lie down) or a 'hard pin' (hold the dog by the collar and force it to lie down, then pull it into a sit) in reps. It suggests that you do 20-30 reps of pinning 2x per day.
This is why i find it awful.

In the dog world dogs do not 'pin' each other to force submission. A submissive dog OFFERS this type of a position to the alpha dog. The only time a dog would be physically forced into lying down would be during an actual attack.

To my mind what this book suggests is that you physically attack your dog, in reps. That you attack your dog over and over and over. That is horrifying.

On top of that on the forum there were other suggestions. If your dog goes limp he hasn't given in, he is just trying to control you. If your dog does this the recommendation is to keep going, don't let the dog control the exercise.
To me going limp is a sign of your dog mentally collapsing, of retreating into itself because it is being assaulted by the person it is supposed to trust.

I would never agree with this. If I ever tried something like this on my dog she would never trust me again. Aside from the fact that i completely disagree with this I think it's dangerous. What if the wrong person does this to a aggressive dog? Their hands are right next to it's head. This is a published book! Some random guy is going to try this and get bit!

As far as clicker training goes if you do it correctly it will work. If it has been explained incorrectly, or if the parent is lazy with the beginning stages of course it won't work! Just like most methods that require more than a token effort it won't work if you skimp on effort.

I have seen things that Brad does that I like, but by and large I disagree with what I have seen. If seeing a tv show isn't an accurate picture of what his training is like why even bother making a show? Why not just run infomercials for his training?

As for dog's needing a strong correction that's not the case if you do it at the right time. If you wait until the dog is hugely worked up (ceasar says 'level 10 intensity) then yeah you'll need to work to get the dog's attention. if you correct it as soon as tension starts building you shouldn't need to yank on the leash.

There was one episode that made me wince in particutar, a large great dane was unruly to walk or control. So he put a martingale collar on it and yanked as hard as he could more than once. He obviously had not done his research on that breed. Great danes are prone to wobblers, a disease where they lose control of their motor functions due to compression of spinal nerves. It has been well proven that storng leash corrections can cause wobblers in danes. The idea that he would treat this dog in a way obviously inappropriate for the breed was frightening.

I disagree that using treats is a crutch. I believe if a dog does something good they should get something for it. Whether that's praise, toys, or treats. When you go to work, you get paid. Do you go to work because you love your boss? Do you give your all at work because you respect your boss as a leader? What if they didn't pay you?

I find treats/toys to be the fastest way to get a dog's attention that does require me to physically harm it or cause it discomfort. To me that outweighs 'instant' results every time.
  #158  
Old February 28th, 2009, 11:38 AM
maui_blue_eyes maui_blue_eyes is offline
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I was also once a Brad follower. I found my dogs got worse when I started with his stuff. Namely the pinning, the running around trees & obstacles, and my dog got worse offleash. They were not trusting me anymore. A story about pinning....at first my husky would resist, but eventually she gave in. She seemed to rebel against me after I started this. I could only manage to do it for a few days. I hated the looks she gave me. I tried to with a lovely foster dog that I had, he was a very submissive dog no problem behaviour, but Brad's book suggested to do this excercise on every dog. So I tried with this guy...and he fought. He fought very hard, he cried, and scratched, but eventually he gave in. And then afterwards, he shut down for about 15 minutes. I believe that pinning is very psychologically damaging to the dog, the owner, and can be very physically dangerous to the person doing this as well, since most dogs will rebel. I think it's awful.

Now I would like to say this was several years ago. I know there were some things not right with this training. I began to learn more and more about dog training and behaviour and am now a certified trainer working professionally. I have the best relationship I have ever had with my dog and she is better behaved than ever and not afraid to be herself and I trined her with treats and clicker training. I think if you say clicker training isn't working it is not being used properly. The problem with clicker training for the average owner, is you need to have good timing. Many people can't master that, which is why it will not work. But, anyone can utilize the philosopy.

There are good parts of Brad's method, but he did not invent them they are borrowed, and they do not make up for his abuse in other areas.
  #159  
Old February 28th, 2009, 01:36 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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I had the same reaction to Brad's training from my dog..maybe it's something to do with the mix..that Husky mind just won't take that kind of treatment. It's taken her a while but she's turning into a great dog. It's funny but the way people who use Brad's methods talk, you'd think their dogs would be perfect but I read them talking about all sorts of issues destructive behaviors in the house, not listening etc.

Maybe I've just been lucky with my dogs but I've never had issues with destructive behavior etc. Bayley liked to argue with me as a pup and she was pretty feisty with her mouth...used a few bandaids while she still had those razor sharp puppy teeth. She learned not to chew on mom without me using any force and if she wants to wrestle she knows she needs a toy in her mouth. She also has great bite inhibition and never puts any pressure on skin with her teeth.

I tried the pinning exercises...hahahhahaha what a joke. If I read something in a training book that recommends that I wear long sleeves and oven mitts to protect myself well then I gotta wonder!! I'm not training my dog for Schutzhund!!! Yes I even have his book. Now umbilical is great and for awhile I thought it was one of his 'inventions' until I found out different.

Now as for clicker training, sometimes my timing is off so I'm not great at it and will quite often just use Yes as my marker. So yes it is a skill to get the timing right and so many people just want the quick fix and aren't willing to learn to get the timing right. I guess it's easier for them to use the yank and crank style of training. I suppose it's easier to just give your dog a good yank on the leash for pulling then to stop and wait for the dog to come back and reward and then continue.

Anyway that's my take on the whole thing, now I have to go out in the -15 c cold and take my dog for a run...Thank goodness the sun is out today
  #160  
Old February 28th, 2009, 06:12 PM
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Bailey_ Bailey_ is offline
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Jakhi: I agree with you, I think it's a wonderful experience to talk to different trainers. In my personal experience of running my own behavioral training, I've had the privledge of taking what I find works and throwing out what I find does not. There are so, so many different methods out there; all to achieve the same goal. A happy dog that has a great bond with it's owner.

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Originally Posted by jakhi View Post
In the dog world dogs do not 'pin' each other to force submission. A submissive dog OFFERS this type of a position to the alpha dog. The only time a dog would be physically forced into lying down would be during an actual attack..
Actually, this is not correct. A mother or dominant female dog in the pack will pin another unruly puppy or dog to establish dominance. Dogs also pin one another down while playing, as I often see in my pack.

Many people try things they see on tv, or read in books. I have seen countless clients come to me after unsuccessful attempts at trying what they've read or watched on tv about Ceaser Milan or Brad Pattison have apparently done. If a person gets bitten by their dog because of attempting something without consulting a proffessional first, then who's fault really is that?

You say clicker training works if the timing is right, but that has nothing to do with why I personally am not a fan. Clicker training is usually accompanied with treats, and the theory is that when the dog hears the clicker they will associate their good behavior with a reward. It's great if that works, but I have seen MANY dogs fail at this - and here's why.

There are many breeds, and many individual dogs - who are simply not food motivated. Not only that, when a distraction occurs, like a car or a person on a bike, the stimuli to chase offered is much higher for their mind than possibly getting a treat.
With that said, I'm glad it's worked for you and your dogs. But it also does not work for many other people and their dogs.

In my opinion, your dog should do what you've asked because it *wants* to please you - not because it may get a small piece of chicken when it hears the click.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jakhi View Post
As for dog's needing a strong correction that's not the case if you do it at the right time. If you wait until the dog is hugely worked up (ceasar says 'level 10 intensity) then yeah you'll need to work to get the dog's attention. if you correct it as soon as tension starts building you shouldn't need to yank on the leash...
I am currently working with a two year old border collie and his owners; who brought him home from the local humane society a few months ago. Max (the border) has *huge* fear aggression issues that we've been working through for the past three weeks, successfully. He is absolutley not food motivated, and after taking him to some clicker-training classes, they sought me out. In his situation, clicker absolutley would not work.
And he is the perfect example of what I was stating before - this is a very insecure dog that displays aggression so quickly that a firm correction IS needed right away - to get his focus and attention back on the owner. It's obviously a matter of giving him an innteruption *before* he escalates to the red zone, giving him that innteruption before even *he* knows how to react to whatever is coming his way - HOWEVER, when you say 'if one waits until their dog is worked up' you have to realize that in many cases - there is absolutley no waiting at all. It comes as quickly as a blink of an eye, and there are many things that trigger this insecurity to hit this wall and explode.

I work with many aggressive dogs, and I can tell you that clicker training these cases - DOES NOT WORK. If it does not work for these cases, I don't see how it's a flawless form of training, one that can be relied on.

If treats work for you and your dog, great. Many people mistreat them, which not only causes a beggar - but also a dog that can become quite protective of it's food - steal things from the hands of little kids, etc. Brad says 'no treats' because so many people abuse them. He doesn't think that they are absolutley out of the question, but when a person begins his training methods - he prefers them to be without.
I'm able to train my dogs strictly through behavioral training, and can use treats. My dogs are not missing out on anything, are extremley happy, can be trusted in public areas off-leash, have wonderful recall, are great in their agility classes, behave perfectly around my young daughter, and I have never - ever - had to bribe them with anything. I ask, they do. Just as in the canine world, the pack leader does not reward it's pack with a million little nuggets of treats whenever they behave. Treats are something that society has lead us to believe is neccessary in training our dogs.

I back Brad's training, will always encourage everyone to look into it further and go to his seminars or lessons; even if only to confirm what they do or do not believe in.
  #161  
Old February 28th, 2009, 07:10 PM
kitona kitona is offline
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Bailey, are you suggesting that folks who really, really dislike brad's training methods actually give him more money to find out that they still really, really dislike him? Most of the brad-disliking people in this discussion were brad-fans and sought out different ways to train because they did not like what they were seeing and hearing from brad himself. They've been there and done that. I do not have to give him my hard earned money to know he's not a trainer/behaviorist/rehaber that I want to have anything to do with. I'd sooner spend my money on books and seminars by real trainers/behaviorists, not some jumped-up ''lifecoach''.
  #162  
Old March 1st, 2009, 10:23 PM
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Kitona: haha, fair point. Well taken.

I just mean that one cannot get a complete understanding by watching his tv show or reading a book. There are a few people that have also posted some innaccurate details about his training, but who have never actually been to a seminar or seen him in action. And I'm not saying that anyone who doesn't believe in a particular type of training needs to try it out before being able to say they don't like something. Freedom of choice, right? However I don't think it's a fair ruling to have such absolutely wrong ideas of how he trains or what he does from watching 'At the End of My Leash'.
I've known Brad going on four years, have seen his work in many area's and situations; to be able to confidently say that you cannot expect a tv show to give you the true reality of his methods. A camera shot does not always correctly display what's actually going on and it cuts a LOT out for time restraints; which is why I encourage those who have questions to actually seek him out.

With that said, speaking from experience, behavioral training is such an extensive career that I absolutley embrace all different types of accomplishing the final result. This does not mean to say that I agree with all the behavioral trainers out there, but when I find methods and tasks that I agree with and am comfortable using on my dogs and those of my clients; I absolutley will support it.
Because Brad is a life-coach, I can say that it has given him a different perspective than say, someone else who is not. I don't think it hinders him at all.

Last edited by Bailey_; March 1st, 2009 at 10:28 PM.
  #163  
Old March 2nd, 2009, 01:28 AM
kitona kitona is offline
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Just as anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves a dog trainer/rehaber, anyone can do the same and call themselves a lifecoach. And if you make two cents as a lifecoach, you can then call yourself a professional lifecoach. There's no regulation whatsoever on either of these so-called ''professions''. All brad has done is cobbled togather some dog training methods from the '60's, added some truely abusive twists, and now claims to be some kind of hot-shot guru. After seeing the public face of the man, I have zero desire to see any more. Not when there are so many positive, proven paths to take toward being closely companionable with your dog(s) and vice versa.
That being said, I'm really glad for you and your dogs that you have a great life togather! Long may you run.
  #164  
Old March 2nd, 2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitona View Post
There's no regulation whatsoever on either of these so-called ''professions''. All brad has done is cobbled togather some dog training methods from the '60's, added some truely abusive twists, and now claims to be some kind of hot-shot guru.
I find it interesting you say that there's no 'regulation' on being a dog-trainer. From experience, I can say without a doubt that : the proof is in the pudding.

None of my clients would come to me, or would reccomend me to their friends and family, if I wasn't successful at what I claimed to be good at. I would *never* continue to bring my dog or child to someone who was failing to reach a goal that I expected them to achieve, and I think the same fact is true with every other dog owner or parent out there.

It's true that anyone can call themselves a 'dog trainer' - but, there certainly ARE "regulations", as you put it. The fact that there is an obvious line between those who cannot accomplish something and those who can. A dog trainer and rehabilitator should be someone that has education and knowledge about dog behavior, instinct, language and breed. Experience is an asset. It's a wonderful and rewarding job, but also a very complex and intense one. Not everyone can be successful at it, which is exactly why there ARE regulations and there ARE lines that can be obviously seen when someone calls themselves a 'trainer'.

As far as Brad using methods from the 60's - wherever he found his methods, is not the point. Are you also suggesting that someone who is now a treat-trainer or clicker-trainer is not 'valid' because they did not 'invent' the idea?

I'm glad that there are many opinions about training and about what suits their family and their pets needs. Without these varied thoughts, I would most certainly be out of a job. lol What I can say, and have been saying through every post - is that if it doesn't work for you, then don't do it.
  #165  
Old March 2nd, 2009, 01:59 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey_ View Post
I find it interesting you say that there's no 'regulation' on being a dog-trainer. From experience, I can say without a doubt that : the proof is in the pudding.

None of my clients would come to me, or would reccomend me to their friends and family, if I wasn't successful at what I claimed to be good at. I would *never* continue to bring my dog or child to someone who was failing to reach a goal that I expected them to achieve, and I think the same fact is true with every other dog owner or parent out there.

It's true that anyone can call themselves a 'dog trainer' - but, there certainly ARE "regulations", as you put it. The fact that there is an obvious line between those who cannot accomplish something and those who can. A dog trainer and rehabilitator should be someone that has education and knowledge about dog behavior, instinct, language and breed. Experience is an asset. It's a wonderful and rewarding job, but also a very complex and intense one. Not everyone can be successful at it, which is exactly why there ARE regulations and there ARE lines that can be obviously seen when someone calls themselves a 'trainer'.

As far as Brad using methods from the 60's - wherever he found his methods, is not the point. Are you also suggesting that someone who is now a treat-trainer or clicker-trainer is not 'valid' because they did not 'invent' the idea?

I'm glad that there are many opinions about training and about what suits their family and their pets needs. Without these varied thoughts, I would most certainly be out of a job. lol What I can say, and have been saying through every post - is that if it doesn't work for you, then don't do it.

I agree. I can also add that there are schools that you can attend which will provide a certificate that you accomplished a course in dog training. Regardless, it is hands on and hanging out with others where you get real experience. Again a certificate is only as good as the results someone produces. I have seen vets that should not be vets, or lawyers that should not be lawyers.

I for instance hung out with a trainer for the Surete de Quebec many years ago. I got to experience how he trained and it was quite interesting. There was very little that I could use in training 'normal house pets' but I was able to extract some very valuable information on how to work with aggressive dogs.

I travelled around abit and went to seminars and watched what people did. Somethings I liked and others not so much but I must admit I tried before I threw out some methods.

I have found great success training with my own dogs which assisted in the training. I studied the behaviour and tried to mimic or modify where I could on my own without my dogs. Everything was about balance and how each and every dog responded to methods and tools (certain collars, leashes etc) - no dogs were the same really.

So even though someone may not have the title 'trainer' does not mean that they cannot train. Thankfully I have enough following were I am trusted. To be very honest with all of you - if there is a dog I cannot reach or teach, I have no problem with asking another trainer to take over....again I watch, learn and listen.
  #166  
Old March 2nd, 2009, 02:10 PM
jakhi jakhi is offline
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Since this thread is huge I'm not going to go back over and check if this has been brought up.

I would love to see brad train a different type of animal. Like cats. Or an orca. Dolphins...

Part of what I love about clicker training is how versatile it is. You can't 'take control' of an orca...it would eat you. I think that the best training methods are transferable to many species. I I think for me that's really what it comes down to.

I have 4 cats, and I train the youngest 2. My boys sit on cue, they know 'touch' (touch their nose to a stick), doing both of these cues I can move them anywhere I want to. I suppose I could do umbilical with them...but I have a hunch I wouldn't like the outcome. I can't imagine trying to train these boys using brad's methods. It just wouldn't work. They do it because they enjoy it, and they have learned to love the clicker.

I can't be their 'pack leader' because they don't think that way.

Also, have you read this study? Here
What about this one? Here

Someone on another forum posted these for everyone to look at. Again, not sure if they've been posted here but they're sure worth the read!
  #167  
Old March 2nd, 2009, 02:15 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Well I read only the title 'if you are aggressive then your dog is aggressive'. That I so do not believe in at all as I am aggressive and always had 'power' dogs that were as gentle as doves. Maybe if someone who is aggressive and transfers that aggression to their pet - even then it can go either way - having an aggressive dog or a highly (un-naturally) submissive broken dog.

Again, all dogs are different, even within the same litters. So again, the training may be not uniform for all.

I really dislike Brad - I cannot get past his attitude. I have seen him challenge a dog and he ended up packing up the dog and sent him back to the shelter - to me this was a complete cop out! Caeser on the other hand works with them even when he is bitten - he does not give up and I have to give him props for that.
  #168  
Old March 3rd, 2009, 07:25 PM
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Bailey_ Bailey_ is offline
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Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
Well I read only the title 'if you are aggressive then your dog is aggressive'. That I so do not believe in at all as I am aggressive and always had 'power' dogs that were as gentle as doves. Maybe if someone who is aggressive and transfers that aggression to their pet - even then it can go either way - having an aggressive dog or a highly (un-naturally) submissive broken dog.

Again, all dogs are different, even within the same litters. So again, the training may be not uniform for all.

I really dislike Brad - I cannot get past his attitude. I have seen him challenge a dog and he ended up packing up the dog and sent him back to the shelter - to me this was a complete cop out! Caeser on the other hand works with them even when he is bitten - he does not give up and I have to give him props for that.
BenMax, I highly agree with you here. There is a huge difference between being aggressive with training and teaching; and being ABUSIVE. I am also a very forward and "aggressive" trainer with my dogs, in the aspect that I am firm and expect a certain behavior from them. I am their alpha. Period.
(I also totally understand what you're saying about Brad. He actually advised me to take a young german shepherd to the SPCA after she was displaying bad aggression at a very young age after she was removed from her mother at 5 weeks of age. I of course, did not, as my views on this are quite different from his. However, in his defence, he has unfortuantley seen many - many dogs put down and many of them without homes. With that said, I don't condone his quick assessment to take a dog to the SPCA if it's not working out in one home.)

I like to challenge their minds, and have always had very trustworthy animals - those that are respectful towards all humans, and never an aggressive animal.
I believe if someone was to misuse certain training techniques, or not carry them out properly or effiecently (be it behavioral, clicker, treat training); then yes - that could most certainly result in a bad situation; which again brings me back to what I was saying before. A trainer stands out by his accomplishments - whether or not he can achieve a goal through his knowledge about dog individuality and circumstance.

Jakhi: VERY COOL what you've accomplished with your cats. That's so great!

I can see what you're trying to say with the clicker training, but to put my two cents in (again, lol) - I'm a dog trainer. I don't attempt to train orca's, as I have not studied their behavior or their language or their mating cycles or their instinct. ALL animals will respond to food. To go deeper than that, in my opinion, is what really makes someone the best rehabilitator for that species; someone who can take food out of the picture, and look at the animal one-on-one and help it's situation for the better. It's much harder to do, takes a lot more effort on the part of the trainer, and from what I have seen with behavioral training in dogs - has incredibly long lasting results.
  #169  
Old March 5th, 2009, 10:24 PM
Stacey0202 Stacey0202 is offline
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pattymac

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As a former Brad follower, notice the former, I discovered that his methods weren't working for my dog and yes I've been to one of his seminars and done one of his street safety classes in Ottawa.

I can't really see how clicker training is a waste of time. I suppose though if you subscribe to the whole dominance theory pile of you know what and believe Brad's theory that every dog is trying to run your household and control your life given half an inch of leeway then I suppose clicker training won't work for you. So if clicker training doesn't work then why do the methods in the book Click to Calm work. I suppose you've read it? (Bailey)

I see so many Brad people claim that treats don't work or they have to keep using them. Umm so far my dog is 'treat trained' and I don't need a treat to have her sit or down or stay or come from across a field when she's out running. I don't even have to call her in that situation, just start moving away from her and she comes running. I also use a clicker for teaching tricks, which by the way works very well. I also use targeting.

I guess for people who want a dog who doesn't have much of an opportunity to think for themselves and just want a passive house dog then go ahead and train with his ways. I much prefer a dog who can think and learn and enjoy it. I'd much rather see a dog heeling and watching it's handler with a wagging tail and happy expression then one heeling because it knows it will get jerked back into position if it puts a foot ahead.
Well said pattymac.
  #170  
Old March 6th, 2009, 07:40 PM
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IluvZeus IluvZeus is offline
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I haven't posted in here in forever. A lot of time has passed since I first got my little Zeus and he's now grown huge at 11 months.



I have watched Brad's show, even visited his forum. I have incorporated some of his methods. Mainly the umbilical, running around obstacles. Since I had him it's been nothing but positive reinforcement and lots of socialization, with everything, everyone of all ages, I even walked around with crutches, canes, umbrellas. I never really subscribed to the whole 'alpha' roll thing nor the 'pinning' exercise, if only because luckily for me, my dog is extremely submissive and always has been. He's never done anything to deserve such harsh treatment and has always looked up to me with respect and love. I guess whatever works for one person, might not work for another and I would never discount someone's methods if they work for them. I read many different books, from many different sources. From Brian Kilkenny and Sarah Wilson to the Monks of New Skete (who have fabulous GSD lines and have amazing results with their training techniques as well)
I'm proud to report that my now 11-month old dog is a great guy to have around. He's funny, quirky, well behaved, and friendly as all get out. Not a jumper on people, but boy, will he lick your fingers. And so gentle with little wee ones. He sometimes pulls a bit on the lead, but I just stop, tell him to sit and we sit there for a while, and then we start up again, he's right beside me, all calm as pie. (Can pie really be calm? But, I digress.)
Oh, and on a completely somewhat related-but different note, it would seem the brad pattison site is down due to non-payment of account. Interesting.
  #171  
Old March 6th, 2009, 07:59 PM
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Oh, and on a completely somewhat related-but different note, it would seem the brad pattison site is down due to non-payment of account. Interesting.
I just checked for laughs and you are right, hilarious... The speculation as to why a celebrity site could not post web hosting payment on time is a endless supply of giggles.
  #172  
Old March 6th, 2009, 09:59 PM
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Lynne_B Lynne_B is offline
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They're currently transferring the website over to a new host and developer, so until that's done the forums and the site will be down, but if you want to continue any discussions in the meantime, go to the Facebook group, "The Bradies". See you there!
  #173  
Old March 7th, 2009, 09:07 AM
cell cell is offline
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Responsible web masters would have ensured the new site was functional before dropping the old one.
  #174  
Old March 7th, 2009, 10:50 AM
maui_blue_eyes maui_blue_eyes is offline
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His site is back up now, it was not down for long.
  #175  
Old March 10th, 2009, 08:14 PM
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downtowntrainer downtowntrainer is offline
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If treats work for you and your dog, great. Many people mistreat them, which not only causes a beggar - but also a dog that can become quite protective of it's food - steal things from the hands of little kids, etc. Brad says 'no treats' because so many people abuse them. He doesn't think that they are absolutley out of the question, but when a person begins his training methods - he prefers them to be without.
I'm able to train my dogs strictly through behavioral training, and can use treats. My dogs are not missing out on anything, are extremley happy, can be trusted in public areas off-leash, have wonderful recall, are great in their agility classes, behave perfectly around my young daughter, and I have never - ever - had to bribe them with anything. I ask, they do. Just as in the canine world, the pack leader does not reward it's pack with a million little nuggets of treats whenever they behave. Treats are something that society has lead us to believe is neccessary in training our dogs.

I back Brad's training, will always encourage everyone to look into it further and go to his seminars or lessons; even if only to confirm what they do or do not believe in.

Bailey,

Is there any situation where Brad does condone treats? I mean you specifically mention " He doesn't think that they are absolutley out of the question," So can you describe to me a situation where this would be condoned?

I ask this because as a trainer (that does NOT use clickers/treats) I am curious as to his reasoning. I do not under any circumstances condone the use of treats in any of my classes.

Just curious as to why a "non treat" trainer would condone the use of treats in different circumstances?

Also have you titled any of your dogs? I mean at the very least placed a CD on one of them? If not, what is the reason?
  #176  
Old March 10th, 2009, 10:09 PM
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Bailey_ Bailey_ is offline
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Bailey,

Is there any situation where Brad does condone treats? I mean you specifically mention " He doesn't think that they are absolutley out of the question," So can you describe to me a situation where this would be condoned?

I ask this because as a trainer (that does NOT use clickers/treats) I am curious as to his reasoning. I do not under any circumstances condone the use of treats in any of my classes.

Just curious as to why a "non treat" trainer would condone the use of treats in different circumstances?

Also have you titled any of your dogs? I mean at the very least placed a CD on one of them? If not, what is the reason?

Brad doesn't think treat TRAINING is the way to go. As a behavioral trainer myself, I absolutley agree with this line of thinking. However, allowing a dog to have a safe bone or a treat is not something he's fighting against.

I do not train my dogs with treats or clickers, but I will still (occasionally) give them a treat now and again. It has nothing to do with training, but rather bonding. I will never use a treat to teach a dog to 'sit', 'stay', 'heel', or work through any behavioral issues. But I have no problems with giving a dog a little treat or a chewbone after dinner.

As for putting a CD on my dogs, I absolutley have no clue what that means.

*** Edit *** Sorry, I thought you were referring to an actual MUSIC cd. (lol!) My bad. I assume you're talking about recieving a title in showing any of my dogs? The answer is no. I don't show my dogs because I have no desire to enter them into that world. I think it would be fun, but I have my dogs in agility and flyball which is much more up our alley than competing in companion dogs. Not to say that I don't think we could blow the competition away....
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Vali (American Bulldog)
Artiro (Cane Corso)

Last edited by Bailey_; March 10th, 2009 at 11:10 PM.
  #177  
Old March 11th, 2009, 08:47 AM
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downtowntrainer downtowntrainer is offline
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Originally Posted by Bailey_ View Post
Brad doesn't think treat TRAINING is the way to go. As a behavioral trainer myself, I absolutley agree with this line of thinking. However, allowing a dog to have a safe bone or a treat is not something he's fighting against.

I do not train my dogs with treats or clickers, but I will still (occasionally) give them a treat now and again. It has nothing to do with training, but rather bonding. I will never use a treat to teach a dog to 'sit', 'stay', 'heel', or work through any behavioral issues. But I have no problems with giving a dog a little treat or a chewbone after dinner.

As for putting a CD on my dogs, I absolutley have no clue what that means.

*** Edit *** Sorry, I thought you were referring to an actual MUSIC cd. (lol!) My bad. I assume you're talking about recieving a title in showing any of my dogs? The answer is no. I don't show my dogs because I have no desire to enter them into that world. I think it would be fun, but I have my dogs in agility and flyball which is much more up our alley than competing in companion dogs. Not to say that I don't think we could blow the competition away....
Thank you for answering that.

I do not have a problem with my clients giving their dogs the ocassional bone or biscuit, after all for a treat to be truly a treat it has to be given with no strings attached (ie I do not ask my dog to sit before giving him his bone).

another question for you though:

You say you are involved with flyball and agility. With both these sports, people who train in them use some form of "motivation" (bribery some may call it) to train them. I don't suppose you teach a "force fetch" to IMO properly motivate your dog?

It is either that or you are using some form of "motivation", which completely contradicts what you are doing and saying for obedience training.

I used to compete in free-style frisbee with my dogs and found when I switched over to old school philosophy of dog training I had a very difficult time teaching "force fetch" because they were so used to the "make a game, go get the nice stick" type of fetching.
  #178  
Old March 11th, 2009, 09:18 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Treats, no treats...really isn't the bottom line getting the results that you want from the dog. Every dog is different and motivated by different techniques.

Is there really a right way of training? What is the right way? A question that no one has an answer to - or there will be a variation of opinions. They are all opinions based on the beliefs of the human and not the animal in question. I wonder how they would approach the question?
  #179  
Old March 11th, 2009, 09:28 AM
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Bailey_ Bailey_ is offline
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Originally Posted by downtowntrainer View Post
Thank you for answering that.

I do not have a problem with my clients giving their dogs the ocassional bone or biscuit, after all for a treat to be truly a treat it has to be given with no strings attached (ie I do not ask my dog to sit before giving him his bone).

another question for you though:

You say you are involved with flyball and agility. With both these sports, people who train in them use some form of "motivation" (bribery some may call it) to train them. I don't suppose you teach a "force fetch" to IMO properly motivate your dog?

It is either that or you are using some form of "motivation", which completely contradicts what you are doing and saying for obedience training.

I used to compete in free-style frisbee with my dogs and found when I switched over to old school philosophy of dog training I had a very difficult time teaching "force fetch" because they were so used to the "make a game, go get the nice stick" type of fetching.

Downtown,

I actually don't use any motiviation for agility. When I run alongside the obstacles, my dog follows my lead. As for flyball, she's incredibly ball motivated and thus no other motivation was ever needed. I wouldn't have put her in flyball otherwise.

BenMax,

I respectfully disagree. I do think that treats "work" for some people and their dogs. However, I believe that behavioral training is the core training for all dogs, and that if one never starts with the treat training they never need it in the future.
That would be my experience, anyway.
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"If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail."

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Tippy (Collie/ShepX)
Vali (American Bulldog)
Artiro (Cane Corso)
  #180  
Old March 11th, 2009, 10:52 AM
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Blackdog22 Blackdog22 is offline
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Bailey what do you use for rewards?

This is an interesting convo...
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