meatless diets for dog?

[Skat]

I live in Turkey known for their famous dog the Kangal. The sheep herders here use these dogs for the protection of their herds. They feed them no meat at all & you normaly can't get them to eat it after they are use to their diets. They seem to be very healthy. Is it a must to have meat in their diets?

[technodoll]

i've never heard of such a thing... sounds like a "he said, she said" story to me! specially for large herding dogs who need alot of energy and calories from a balanced & proper diet for a carnivore... very few dogs can survive on a vegetarian diet, much less thrive on one. perhaps they eat fish?

[Skat]

It is a fact & the reason being is that they do not want them to know the taste of meat for fear of losing sheep. As for written proof, I am searching now & will get back with an answer as soon as I can.

[technodoll]

the reason being is that they do not want them to know the taste of meat for fear of losing sheep.

i'm sorry but ... that "logic" is so retarded! if it were true then there would be no herding or guarding dogs on the planet. Think about it.

some humans are too dumb to own dogs IMO (not you! the people with these ridiculous empty assumptions!)

[Skat]

http://yorukanatolian.com/custom2.html

Nutrition
Today everywhere in Anatolia ASDs are heavily fed on "Yal": broken wheat or bran mixed with mostly hot water or depending on the abundance, sometimes with milk. This mix is made with tomato sauce in some regions instead of water or milk. Milk contains almost every kind of protein, and it is especially good for young dogs. But in general, food with high protein makes ASDs over active that is not a desirable trait, because they are supposed to calm the flock down and not to attack it. Too much energy may make them go wild or crazy or become unnecessarily aggressive. Excessive energy makes them to chase after everything they see. This is also not a desirable trait, because a good ASD is supposed to stay with the flock and must not stray away from it.

In addition too rapid growth in ASDs causes proportionally less muscle versus bone development. A healthy development in ASDs is one, which is spread over about two years. A concern is not having large dogs but more importantly well built and well proportioned dogs. Wheat products, milk or yal with milk appears to be the best nutrition for these dogs. According to Aral and Sezen Altay who are Doberman and Kangal Shepherd Dog (KSD ) breeders in Izmir; considering the weights of the dogs, Dobermans consume three times more food than KSDs, and when Dobermans are fed by yal, the growth rate that is seen in KSDs is not met. On the contrary, wheat products have a positive effect on the growth of KSDs. Moreover it is a must (discussed in the main section).

I must add here that you do not see any shepherd dog with hip and elbow dysplasia. It is not because it is not detected, but because of the following reasons:

1- They are fed traditionally. This leads a slow growth process. Traditional nutrition does not stress and pressure the body. This way the body has enough time to expand.

2- They have sufficient exercise which is an insurance against arthritis.

3- Dogs, which have hip problems are physically are not competitive enough to pass their genes.

4-All the Asian origin shepherd dogs have heavier bone structure. They have flexible joints. They are unlike German Shepherds. The rules applied on GSDs cannot be applied to them. Their mentality, physiology and anatomy are different.

Of course, dogs with known hip problems should not be bred. A proactive approach as mentioned above is the fundamental solution. When the dogs go through a very strict and heavy performance testing, the results will pretty much tell us what to do. The active shepherd dogs like wolves go through it all the time, that is why shepherds do not need any hip dysplasia testing. What do we do in order to replicate the circumstances in the cities? We have methods.

[technodoll]

broken wheat or bran mixed with mostly hot water or depending on the abundance, sometimes with milk. This mix is made with tomato sauce in some regions instead of water or milk.

where's the nutrition for a large carnivore? my god i'd starve eating just that for my whole life, now go imagine a dog... wow. poor things. :sad:

[Skat]

I am by no means saying that I am not going to give my puppy meat. On the contrary I am a meat eater & couldn't stand having to cook it & have Molly with her sad eye staring at me as I chow down. I just wanted to get a bit of feed back from the forum on how it might affect a dog.

[technodoll]

she's too cute not to give tasty good food to, eh? how old is molly?

interesting information, for sure, although i doubt that it can produce generations of healthy dogs it goes against everything we know about dogs' physiology and nutritional needs... wow.

[gypsy_girl]

Although dogs can be fed a vegetarian diet, (and some do thrive) the amino acid profile of most plant protein is not a good as meat. Having said that, the dog would require more food in order to meet protein requirements. Milk does have a good amino acid profile very similiar to egg but unfortunately most dogs are lactose intollerant (in our society)
Feeding this way you would have slower growth as the "food" is not as energy dense, due to the proteins and fat level.
Contrary to popular belief excess protein DOES not create energy rather is gets excreted in the urine, hyperactivity is NOT a byproduct.
Another reason that this breed may do well being fed this way, is that they are metabolically "slower" ,they are more of an ambling breed that is protective when required. This means then that they do not need a high calorie diet like a dog who is running all day.

[Skat]

Molly is 10 weeks old now & she is the sweetest thing & learning so fast after I obtained so many tips from this forum & the net. As for the dogs not eating meat, they really look healthy on the outside, no telling with the innerds!

Actually the main reason I did ask the question was due to your thread about feeding raw veggies, along with meat of course

[technodoll]

This means then that they do not need a high calorie diet like a dog who is running all day.

hmm i thought that's what livestock guardians did... run around protecting and guiding sheep... not with the enery and duties of a border collie, but they still are on their feet most of the time they're on the job, breaking up fights, chasing unwanted animals away (possums, fox, snakes, birds, you name it), blending in with the herd and being mentally alert at all times... as opposed to sleeping on soft couch 18 hours per day. farm life vs sedentary house life.

interesting subject!

[Skat]

Thank you Gypsy Girl & yes this is an interesting subject. Need to look into this. Selecting a "perfect" diet out of a prepared bag with preservatives in it doesn't sound so good either, even thought thats exactly what I am doing at the moment.

[technodoll]

there is no one "perfect" diet for all dogs... whatever you feed molly will be good, you are doing your research and not just taking things for granted. trial and error, you will end up with what she needs! (just don't forget the meat, LOL!)

[gypsy_girl]

I think they more amble about and protect by staying alert and watching, then protecting when neccesary similiar to a Maremma.This is of course, "my description" which could be quite different from reality. Having had Salukis, the description of what they are here, to what they are REALLY like in the desert is QUITE different.
The book description
This description makes it clear the dogs must be strong and hardy, not easily tired and at times are called upon to be very brave. They need their weatherproof coats and can exist on very little food as adults. They are also great fun due to their lively intelligent disposition, acting as partners to man. The shepherds value them highly and recount with pride how large, faithful and indomitable they are.

[technodoll]

wow salukis now that should be a whole other thread!

[gypsy_girl]

Yes, they would agree to have another thread dedicated to them ( and perhaps ALL sighthounds)!