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  #31  
Old June 8th, 2010, 02:15 PM
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dogs should be put down.

mother should be held responsible.

isnt the fact that her baby had been mauled enough of a punishment though? i understand some type of punishment should take place, but its her baby afterall, you have to add in the fact that the guilt of her irresponsibility will stick with her her whole life..

plus , she is still a kid, shes not considered an adult i dont think unless your 18.

but even if she is a kid, she can still learn behaviours of animals and what not, afterall its knowlege. if a 7 year old can acheive a 3d degree black belt in martial arts and teach it, then im pretty sure a 17 year old can understand some things about animal behaviours.

theres 50 year olds who dont know about animal behaviours. again, its all knowledge. but i guess benmax ment shes too youung and inexperienced with animals.

dogs could have just wanted to play with the baby too, but shes just so fragile that could easily kill her. its really just an awful occurance.

thats my
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  #32  
Old June 8th, 2010, 02:36 PM
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latest news :


http://www.thestar.com/news/quebec/a...slaughter?bn=1

I also found this , where it says there was 2 other dogs in cages ....

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/news/B...399/story.html

the story changed though ... at first , they said they were outside smoking and it took longer than expected , now they say it only took 5 minutes

I'll stop now
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  #33  
Old June 8th, 2010, 02:53 PM
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Isnt the fact that her baby had been mauled enough of a punishment though?

NO NO NO

i understand some type of punishment should take place, but its her baby afterall, you have to add in the fact that the guilt of her irresponsibility will stick with her her whole life.

She should feel guilty she was irresponsible and wreckless. Her baby paid for ignorance and now maybe the dogs as well.

plus , she is still a kid, shes not considered an adult i dont think unless your 18.
You can not have it both ways she has a kid if she is not an adult then place the baby with an adult (don't think the baby stood a chance in that home). You can be sure she considers herself an adult.

but even if she is a kid, she can still learn behaviours of animals and what not, afterall its knowlege. if a 7 year old can acheive a 3d degree black belt in martial arts and teach it, then im pretty sure a 17 year old can understand some things about animal behaviours.

I do not think this girl is all that bright but that is not the dogs fault that she thought it was more important to have a smoke along with her stupid grandmother (guess the apple does not fall far from the tree)

dogs could have just wanted to play with the baby too, but shes just so fragile that could easily kill her. its really just an awful occurance.

WTF was the 20 day old baby doing lying on the floor??? How stupid do you have to be to realize that is just wrong.

Benmax I have to disagree with you on this one which is pretty unusual but you are entitled to your opinion.
I am with Frenchy I do not allow children near my dogs. I will not have them put in a situation that by protecting themselves may cause a child harm or them.

thats my
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  #34  
Old June 8th, 2010, 03:10 PM
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she was supposedly strapped into her seater on the floor sleeping, not laying on the floor, unless the story has changed now and yes, they did say they were outside "taking" a smoke and were longer than they expected to be.
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  #35  
Old June 8th, 2010, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mastifflover View Post
but even if she is a kid, she can still learn behaviours of animals and what not, afterall its knowlege. if a 7 year old can acheive a 3d degree black belt in martial arts and teach it, then im pretty sure a 17 year old can understand some things about animal behaviours.

I do not think this girl is all that bright but that is not the dogs fault that she thought it was more important to have a smoke along with her stupid grandmother (guess the apple does not fall far from the tree)

thats my
I don't know about you but I am still learning about dog behaviour and I am certain that my lessons will continue.

The example of the 7 year old is alittle weird. A 7 year old has control over his/her own body, and what is taught by standard training without deviation. But interestingly enough, depending on if there is interaction between two parties if there is a combat in martial arts, this 7 year old must read his/her oponent. This oponent is a human being and reading the movements, eye contact and contortion is much simplier than reading behaviours in an animal that is instinctual.

The dog should be euthanized. This is not easy for me to say as I try and save dogs and cats every day but there is a limit to what I will and can do. A child killing dog....sorry no way, regardless of the circumstances.
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  #36  
Old June 8th, 2010, 03:14 PM
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i have to say and i'm sure i'll get bashed but i totally agree with Benmax,,we're not discussing any dog with a high prey drive, we are discussing 1 if not 2 dogs that killed a baby. I personally would never trust the dogs again, and in good conscience couldn't rehome them to someone else for worrying it would happen again.

yes the adults should be charged and if there is more than one little nip on the baby then yes the dog should be put down. My dogs are super sucks but we had a baby here two weekends ago, and both of us watched Qman like a hawk to make sure he was calm and gentle around the baby,,he actually decided she was his and brought her toys and watched who went near her. Unfortunately this isn't the case with this situation.


little one.
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  #37  
Old June 8th, 2010, 03:42 PM
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Frenchy, you nailed it.

I see these people everywhere in and around Montreal and I know exactly the type. The characters involved in this tragic story are no different.

37 year old grandmother smoking with her 17 year old daughter while a 3 week old baby is left unattended on the floor of the home. What the HELL IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?? This girl should not have had a baby under her care, I don't give a @#$ if she gave birth to it.

Without even getting into whether the dog actually attacked/punctured the child or not, WHAT in the world is a baby doing on the floor while the other two imbeciles get their smoke on?? On top of that, there was another dog and her puppy in a cage in the house as well as two other couples that lived in the home. A three ring circus is what it sounds like to me -- the Quebecois equivalent of white trash.

Anything could have happened that would have caused the dog(s) to react a certain way and hurt the baby, either intentionally or unintentionally. The point is, that child should not have been on the floor in a home with a total of 4 dogs while the people who should have been responsible enough are outside having their nicotine fix. It disgusts me.

That baby could have been knocked over while the two dogs were play fighting and then they used her as a toy. The dogs could have been fighting amongst eachother and the baby was caught in the crosshairs. Wrong place, wrong time. Wrong place because someone obviously left the poor thing there!

Dogs don't know better, that's why RESPONSIBLE human beings are supposed to be the ones making the smart decisions about stuff like whether to leave a newborn out on the floor to go out and puff on a cancer stick...

Whatever, that's my very biased opinion. It makes my blood boil.
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  #38  
Old June 8th, 2010, 04:01 PM
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It makes everyone's blood boil. Bottom line is the child was left unattended and the child is dead...no changing it. The dog(s) (whatever one -I really don't care at this point) should be euthanized.

Poor judgement, lack of common sense, irresponsibility all were factors. But it is too late for this child and the dogs.

One can only hope that people are reading and learning.
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  #39  
Old June 8th, 2010, 05:24 PM
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How could anyone trust those dogs again? Would you allow them near a child....of any age? I sure as hell wouldn't!

Yes, under the law, the "mother" is still a minor and more than likely will be charged under the Young Offenders Act and will not receive any Federal penitentiary time. She probably won't get any time.....counselling because she lost her child.....counselling about proper parenting.....counselling about animal behaviour

Sorry, but although the mother and grandmother were irresponsible....the fact remains, an innocent baby died a horrific death.

IMO the dogs must be euthanized.

A terrible loss of life for no reason.

to the innocent child
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  #40  
Old June 8th, 2010, 06:09 PM
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I'm not happy that the mother is being charged with manslaughter - criminal negligence causing death would have been more likely to stick. Now she may very wel get off. And she should be tried as an adult. Old enough to have a baby then old enough to be treated like anyone else IMO.

My opinion tends to be in line with Frenchy on this one. I have a lot of difficulty faulting the dogs. I don't know because I wasn't there (obviously) and can only speculate, but I really feel strongly that if proper supervision was happening then this would not have occurred. Whether you know a dog inside and out, or especially if you barely know them at all, you DO NOT leave a dog alone with a child for even a second!!!! You take one of them with you (and in the case of such a little one I would certainly say take the baby) and close a door to ensure no unsupervised contact is happening. I would never, ever trust any dog for a single second to have such close contact with a 3-week old child. And I also don't approve of leaving a baby at a physical level that is below that of a dog.

This was 100% preventable and it makes me sick to know that a baby has died and now in all likelihood two innocent dogs will lose their lives as well.
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  #41  
Old June 8th, 2010, 07:34 PM
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Leaving a baby with more than one dog and a litter of puppies in the house would trigger any dog regardless of their prey drive. NO one was in the house, no one knew exactly what happened and why the dogs did what they did. My 13 year old Winnie under the right circumstances may react the same way...I will never know because I am not ignorant enough to leave a three week baby in a house unattended with multiple dogs, some of which were not even sterilized. Should these dogs be blamed for reacting like dogs ( i don; think so) ( and no one will know what happened and know one really cares; results of this - one three week baby is dead and these poor dogs will be put down for another human error.
...and would I trust one of these dogs with my kids...sure would! would I trust the "pack"....absolutely not!
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  #42  
Old June 8th, 2010, 08:03 PM
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...and would I trust one of these dogs with my kids...sure would! would I trust the "pack"....absolutely not!
Yep , about the pack ...what I learned a bit earlier , there was not only the 2 huskies , but 2 other dogs and a litter of puppies !!! So that makes 4 intact dogs + puppies , inside an apartment.

I think the female husky will be the only one to get put down , they found out she was the one who bite the baby.

It's all over french tv .... everyone is very surprise by the charges against the mom , so harsh (not in my opinion) and so quick after her baby's death that ... everyone is now thinking there's more to this story , like maybe police found drugs , booze , maybe she was under the influence when it happened ... I guess we won't know until it goes to court.
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  #43  
Old June 8th, 2010, 08:56 PM
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.
...and would I trust one of these dogs with my kids...sure would! would I trust the "pack"....absolutely not!
Don't even trust one dog alone with children or babies. Here, quite some years ago, a solitary wire haired Fox Terrier killed a baby. Now, don't jump on the fact that it was a Terrier please because there is another point I can make here, wire haired Foxies are rather rare and not the sort of dog owned by , as some have called these people, trailer trash. So, tragic mistakes can happen in the best families too.

The same thing happens here in Australia when we get dreadful things like this happen. The man on the street, so to speak, is horrified and so sorry for the poor mother and baby, while the dedicated dog people make excuses for the dog's behaviour and want to save it/them. Everyone might agree she shouldn't have left the baby in that position. but hey, she is just 17, she may have no interest in dogs whatsoever, none of the dogs may have belonged to her, and even your average pet owner has possibly little of the knowledge people here have. My breed can be quite friendly if they are with us but very much a guard dog if we are away from home. I wouldn't expect the average person to realise that. If you weren't there you don't know, those dogs may have seemed totally harmless to these people.

I agree with everything BenMax has said, I could cry for that poor dear little baby, such a short life and a cruel death, and if they had been my dogs I would have taken them straight to the vet to be put down. Hubby and I agree on that, we think that sort of attitude is part of being responsible owners of any dogs that could badly injure or kill an innocent person. Do you think they were responsible owners , leaving these dogs loose in their absence?
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  #44  
Old June 8th, 2010, 10:09 PM
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I'm having a hard time buying they didn't know better or it was accidental. They knew better to go outside for a smoke but didn't know better than to leave a baby with strange dogs . 6 adults living in that house and 1 visiting and no one knew better??
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  #45  
Old June 8th, 2010, 10:46 PM
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How many warnings do you see on TV there about smoking can kill you, compared to warnings that a dog might? Every time another restriction is placed upon smokers we hear all about it here. Death by smoking is still common, death by dog is certainly not. I know, it's easy to say how stupid they were but do you think they'd have left the room if they thought for one minute that would happen? Same as that pit bull event where the grandmother left the child with it. It's something they will forever regret, so I do feel just so sorry for them. Also very sorry that the dogs didn't have a responsible owner though.
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  #46  
Old June 9th, 2010, 05:29 AM
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i guess it's easy for us to say,,i'd do this or i'd do that without having been there, and we will never know the absolute truth..I as a smoker do go outside to smoke,,,anytime i had my young nephew with me,,i either took him outside with me(of course upwind from my smoke) or i put him safely to bed and of course i had a baby monitor with me. Not in a million years would i leave a baby alone with one of my dogs (especially not Bailey),,and i sure as heck wouldn't leave it alone with SOMEONE ELSE'S dogs. Think of it this way,,,what if it had been one of your children, then how would you feel. I love my dogs to death but if they killed a child it would be the end of the story.

I got the impression from the articles,,it was the two roommates huskies,,a husky golden x that was crated and 1 of her pups,,not a litter. hmmm mom knew enough to crate her own dogs with the other two there,,makes me wonder why.
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  #47  
Old June 9th, 2010, 08:26 AM
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although Brina is trained (2 yrs and counting) to be a daycare dog, there is no way she'd be left alone with any of the kids in my care, if I step out onto my deck for a smoke, she is with me, I've had children bite her, kick her and probe her ears/eyes and not once a growl, snarl, showing of teeth or a bite, I trust her 99.9% but there is always that .01%, so why take a chance.
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  #48  
Old June 9th, 2010, 08:55 AM
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I am glad they charged her and she should be tried as an adult. You will find no sympathy here for her. I am sure she will pop out another kid real soon. I still do not think the dogs should be put down. If I believed that then Clark would have been put down, I got him because parents left a kid alone with a dog chewing a bone and the kid grabbed it and Clark snapped at him and broke the skin. Stupid parents.
Melinda if only everyone was so responsible with there dogs.
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  #49  
Old June 9th, 2010, 09:04 AM
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I got the impression from the articles,,it was the two roommates huskies,,a husky golden x that was crated and 1 of her pups,,not a litter. hmmm mom knew enough to crate her own dogs with the other two there,,makes me wonder why.
Story keeps changing ... I heard this morning , the husky female was pregnant but no one confirmed it so ...

there's so many speculations .... drugs / alcohol .... that the autopsy might have shown previous injuries on the baby .... that the baby was already dead BEFORE they went outside to smoke but those are speculations

I'm glad our justice system for once , was quick to defend the victim , which in this case , is a poor tiny baby girl. someone has to speak on her behalf.
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  #50  
Old June 9th, 2010, 09:09 AM
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I think that this story will keep changing and eventually the truth will prevail
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  #51  
Old June 9th, 2010, 09:09 AM
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I am glad they charged her and she should be tried as an adult. You will find no sympathy here for her. I am sure she will pop out another kid real soon. I still do not think the dogs should be put down. If I believed that then Clark would have been put down, I got him because parents left a kid alone with a dog chewing a bone and the kid grabbed it and Clark snapped at him and broke the skin. Stupid parents.
Melinda if only everyone was so responsible with there dogs.
Mastifflover - first time you and I disagree..which is absolutely fine.

Let me ask you this. If your dog(s) killed a human being regardless of the reason or ignorance of others behind it - would you really fight to keep your dog(s) alive?

I am in 100% agreement with everyone that this was preventable ...dogs and young children should never ever be left alone. This we all agree on. No ifs ands or buts.

So that day was tragic, but I honestly feel that child was doomed regardless. The parents/grandparents were ignorant, and probably would have remained so. Now what would happen say in 1 year from now when the baby started to crawl?

The dog had it in her. She was unstable and unpredictable. She was a liability if not that day, but another as well.

As for charging this girl... Funny how this charge was so darn fast and others who have intentionally killed another get lesser charges or pending charges. Very strange.
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  #52  
Old June 9th, 2010, 09:14 AM
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As for charging this girl... Funny how this charge was so darn fast and others who have intentionally killed another get lesser charges or pending charges. Very strange.
Like many people said , it means that they already have a strong case against the mother. I really think there's something we don't know ...
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  #53  
Old June 9th, 2010, 09:21 AM
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I guess I'm in the minority here...I think a manslaughter charge is way way way too harsh and inappropriate. These people made a terrible mistake and this mother's child is now dead because of this mistake. For me, this mistake is far closer to 'neglect' than 'manslaughter' and the charge should reflect this.

Let's be real - we've seen occasional cases in recent years of mothers deliberately killing their children (MORE horrific, yes?) and the charge is often manslaughter based on the mother's state of mind.

This was a mistake; stupid and terrible yes. But a mistake that ended in a terrible tragedy and the mother is already suffering because of this....I'd be much more in favour of a charge that has neglect in its title, not manslaughter.

I hate to give a firm opinion on whether the dog(s) should be put down, but history is the best predictor of future actions...so if they DID discover which exact dog is responsible...by putting this dog down, it's impossible for history to ever repeat itself.

RIP sweet innocent child
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  #54  
Old June 9th, 2010, 09:25 AM
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Let me ask you this. If your dog(s) killed a human being regardless of the reason or ignorance of others behind it - would you really fight to keep your dog(s) alive?

It would really depend on the situation if it were him defending me, yes I would. Otherwise I would probably have him put down myself. But I live with an aggressive dog so I am super vigilant about not putting him in situations that could put him or others in danger. He is getting better but I still do not trust him with others.

I think there is a lot more to this story
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  #55  
Old June 9th, 2010, 09:42 AM
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Marko,,,i don't know what the term is for manslaughter but here in Canada,,Criminal negligence causing death can be a life sentence, so even changing the name the mother could end up doing the same if not More time. I'm with Frenchy,,the police know something we don't know.

Who wants to place a bet that if they do a tox test on the baby there will be residule drugs in her bloodstream?
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  #56  
Old June 9th, 2010, 10:01 AM
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Like many people said , it means that they already have a strong case against the mother. I really think there's something we don't know ...
They thought they had a really strong case against Lindy Chamberlain here when the dingo killed her baby too, and just recently there was a case here where two young boys were found dead in a house, with their mother so ill she had to be flown to Melbourne. Mention was made on TV that the police were interviewing her so everyone assumed she had killed her sons and tried to commit suicide. Truth was that a faulty heater nearly killed all 3. Her poor hubby went on TV to tell those who assumed the wrong thing about her that they should be ashamed of themselves. If this poor girl who has lost her baby ever has a trial, I hope they can find a jury that hasn't already made their own conclusions. I get sick of trials by media.
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  #57  
Old June 9th, 2010, 10:01 AM
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I rarely give my opinion or post on topics such as this.....but Marko you are not a minority on this subject. I too have the same opinion as you. Unfortunately, this was a kid raising a kid. Funny how the grandma got off...even though it sounds like she was the only legally adult around?
For sure there is information in this case that they are not making public.
So I am giving this opinion on what was made public. As for the dogs....as unpopular as it sounds on this board. I would not keep a dog that has bitten a child regardless of how it happens. There is a history and so it will probably happen again. To rehome this dog would only be to pass on the problem to someone else!
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  #58  
Old June 9th, 2010, 10:02 AM
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I guess it's semantics then - If the charge is indeed "Criminal negligence causing death" then that's exactly what this is and I have no problem with the charge. In terms of the sentencing, because this is a stupid accident imo, I'd have her do little to no jail-time and force her to take a program on safety and child rearing (if there is one). again just my
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  #59  
Old June 9th, 2010, 10:09 AM
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The girls's mother ... the baby's grandmother was only 37...do you really think this is something that a course in child rearing can change? Both should have known better than to just quickly "pop outside for a puff" with an infant unattended. The grandmother has no charges pending from what I understand. There is something not quite right here.....but nonetheless, a helpless infant will never see even 1 month of age. So sad...so unnecessary...so needless.
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  #60  
Old June 9th, 2010, 10:12 AM
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I really can't say what i think the sentence should be for the mother not knowing all the info. If it truly is just her youth,,,then what the heck is wrong with Gramma. The fact she is only 17 really doesn't affect my choice, as someone said earlier. if you're old enough to have sex and a baby then you're old enough to be tried as an adult. Ok maybe not a life sentence but definately some time. Yes she lost her baby,,but it was due to her actions and a baby lost it's life. This whole young offenders law is bull and doesn't solve the problem. our whole judicial system needs a serious look at

Goldfields,,i thought Lindy Chamberlain was proven innocent finally. Did they not come up with new evidance proving her story true?
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