Not meaning to offend[B][/B]

[bendyfoot]

Here's an interesting exercise for people who think it would be easy to keep your sexual orientation out of an average everyday conversation.

For the purposes of the exercise, if you are female, pretend you are in a live-together, long-term relationship with another female, whose name is, say, Elizabeth.

Now, answer the following questions (which would come up in a normal conversation), without giving away the fact that your partner is a female.

1. So what did you on the weekend?

2. What does your partner do for a living?


You MIGHT be able to get away with the first question, by being really vague (or if your partner was out of town or you don't spend any time together ) vague, but if you can answer the second question without playing the "Pronoun Game", I'll be impressed.

Any number of off-shooting questions from the first two could make it even harder. The Pronoun Game is a hard one to win.

[onster]

Just wanted to say this is a great thread, learned a lot

[aslan]

lol, if nothing else we know now that marko can hold his own against 4 women debating him.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by aslan

lol, if nothing else we know now that marko can hold his own against 4 women debating him.

Bahhahahaha

[Jim Hall]

Thx for the support Jim; I take both Freud and Skinner seriously.

Glad I made some of you laugh; it's a funny story to tell hey marko ive been bouncedout of a few myself just for sitting there was one in up state ny that years agowas straight well it wasnt last time iwas there

Y all inviter to halloween in the village you will see sexual identies genders orintations etc that you never dreamed of

[aslan]

Oh no Jim you must come here for Pride. Not much you could show me that i havent seen before. We have one section of downtown, known as the Pink Triangle that is mainly gay owned business's or bars.

[Equla]

Just gonna toss a couple cookies... errrr... cents... errr whatever in here.

I got pregnant very young (17). It was a stupid mistake that I let happen a total of three times in my life. I like to blame crappy birth control efforts and very motivated eggs, but either way, it happened. I decided during the first pregnancy that I wasn't ready to be responsible for another life, so I chose adoption.

I used to go to HUGE Christmas and Thanksgiving dinners that were 3 or 4 day affairs with the ENTIRE fam-damnly... all 50-60 of us. We flew in every year from all over the country for the major feast and celebration of our love for each other.

The year my daughter was born, and she didn't come home from the hospital with me, my family literally removed me from the guest list that Thanksgiving. I was sent a rather nasty email via my mother's email inbox informing her that I was not to attend and no one wanted to speak to me because I turned my back on my blood. During dinner, my decision came up in conversation and one person, my cousen, had the guts to stand up for me. She tried to explain why I made the choice that I did (welfare, high school, single parent... all that jazz). She was physically removed from the house and told never to come back.

A couple years later, I found myself pregnant again. Once again, I was not ready to be a mother, so I called the family that adopted Stephanie and asked if she wanted a little brother (same father). Shortly after finding out I was pregnant, my Grandmother (most cherished of all my family) was diagnosed with cancer. I couldn't stay away anymore. I came to Christmas dinner, fully pregnant. When packing my bags, I had two piles of clothing laid out... "fat" clothes, and "pregnant" clothes. At the last second I threw the maternity clothing into the suitcase and hopped the flight. When wind got around that I was in town, some family members showed up to my Grandmother's house in secret to show their support, others wagged their tongues in the phone tree. When I showed up to dinner, I was handed a baby and told I "needed the practise." That was their effort at converting me, I think. When I made it clear that I was placing this child for adoption (with the father there holding my hand... Lord love him), everyone walked away and refused to talk to me... Even the few that had showed me support in secret.

I managed to leave Reno with my head held high and a few less family members. Those that supported my decision refused to admit it after seeing my cousen excommunicated.

Now, after a 3rd pregnancy, my tubes are tied and I finally have a small measure of sexual liberation. I still have to inform just about every guy by the 3rd date that I will NOT be having children. I feel it is only fair to let them know before they assume I come with a white-picket fence and 2.5 kids. Most of them choose to end things right then and there because I don't fit into the box they have designed for their life.

I don't CHOOSE to be a social pariah. I made a choice that worked for me. I don't want children. For this, I am weird and, I think, a little feared. I have even been turned down a job because of it. Believe it or not! The owner of the company asked me during the interview if I had children. She stated that she prefers employees with children because the income is more important to them... they will work harder to keep the job.

Just about everyone has something about them that they either "keep in the closet" or throw out there for the world to judge. Each of us bears a cross. For GLBT, it's the issue of the day and the one that most are passionate about. Hell, I deal with the fact that people look at Mansa sideways when I walk down the street. Wanna talk about prejudice? Walk a pitbull. THAT is something I bring up in every conversation (which is often as I am a taxi driver). I identify as a pit owner... it matters... we really are a little different. We deal with stereotype daily and constantly have to defend our furkids' genes. Look at me cross-eyed all you want, but I would totally participate in and help fund a pitty-parade.

Wanna know the ironic part? My third baby, Lily, was placed with a gay couple that live in Vancouver. My family is slowly coming out of the woodwork now. I was tossed out for placing children for adoption... but as soon as I helped a couple of guys have a baby, I'm Wonderwoman. Go figure...

[DoubleRR]

I admire you, Equla. You were both stronger and more intelligent about yourself than I. Having married the father of my children and raising both -- ending up with a terrible marriage that I escaped after 20 yrs plus a daughter who hates me---I wish I had gone with my guts as you did!

[Equla]

Originally Posted by DoubleRR

I admire you, Equla. You were both stronger and more intelligent about yourself than I. Having married the father of my children and raising both -- ending up with a terrible marriage that I escaped after 20 yrs plus a daughter who hates me---I wish I had gone with my guts as you did!

Thank you. I usually get one of 3 reactions when I tell people I put children up for adoption: sympathy, anger, or praise. Praise is the only one I feel good about. The other two make me feel badly.

What it boils down to is living for yourself and making choices accordingly. We only get one life and I never wanted to get to the end of it and look back thinking I didn't do what was right for me. I think that's the heart of many socially-upsetting issues. We are so worried that someone will think less of us because we strayed from THEIR norm -- not even THE norm -- that we will do whatever it takes to fit in.

In the end, it's the choices we make that form who we are. I applaud anyone who would walk around wearing a shirt with block letters proclaiming "I'm GAY!!!" or make the choice to stay in a loveless marriage for the sake of the children, or leave a loveless marriage for the sake of themselves. It's all about what felt right at the time. If you can look back at your life and honestly say, "It seemed like the thing to do at the time," then you lived a life that is true to you and your personal ideals. We don't get to know how our decisions will impact our lives later on. We have to make the choice right then and there.

If nothing else, I believe honesty is key... to yourself and others. If you want to walk around as a male in dresses and wigs, fine! It is you, and anyone who doesn't want to see it can look the other way. The same thing goes for lesbians that feel more comfortable wearing pants and short haircuts... it's you! We are all different and the sooner we learn to embrace and celebrate our differences, the sooner we can start singing kumbaya and waiting for the aliens to show up.

After all... aren't we all connected by one common thread around here? We all love animals. We all own different animals. Someone on here may be a card-carrying member of PETA and believe that pitbulls are demon-spawn and should be wiped from the Earth. Others have bought from a petshop instead of adopting. No matter what, we accept each other based on the fact that we all are here to better understand our furry roommates, kids, or boyfriends (in my case). Why should it be so much of a stretch to unite over the common thread of humanity and celebrate our subtle (yes, SUBTLE) differences such as skin color, religion, or sexual orientation?... when we already unite as parents to many different breeds, colors, genders, and aquisition of our furkids.

On this site, we get personal. It doesn't seem like a stretch to me that sexual orientation, race, religion, gender, age, etc. are part of our daily conversations. Just makes me feel closer to you all.

[aslan]

Equla, i am one of the ones who will praise you..I don't think you just did something that was right for you, but you also did something that was right for the babies. They went to people who truly wanted a child. You gave them a good life and stayed true to what you believed. Lol, i'm the one who goes against my family norm on a regular basis..When i was a teenager a had what my mom fondly called a rats tail..the long thin ponytail,it was bleached blonde so i could dye it different colors..my mom used to always biatch at me and say " I wouldn't want one of those".. i finally answered." then don't grow one"

I'm so happy to see people sharing personal experiences in this thread. It's kinda like mass group therapy....Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya.....oh and when the aliens get her " i call shotgun".

[Tundra_Queen]

I took a psyh course a few years back and it was mentioned that it has been shown that gay people's brain is wired a bit differently than a straight person's brain. I don't know if that is true or not and I don't care. All I care about is if u are a nice, kind and caring person. If you are then I will like you and be your friend. If u are mean and nasty, then I don't have time for you.

Debbie

[chico2]

Equla,wonderful post
I am just a little befuddled why after the first baby,you did not prevent more pregnancies,but then again you made 3 families happy..

[My Lodi Girl]

I once had a friend who gave a baby up for adoption. I thought she made the hardest decision she could make under the circumstances and admired her for the strength she had to be able to give up her child so that he could have a better life. I admire anyone who makes the toughest decisions...hats off to you Equla for making that decision more than once.
I think that families who turn their back on you because you have turned your back on "your blood" have some problems themselves. They are turning their back on "their blood", what is the difference? My younger brother doesn't want a relationship with me because I don't want a relationship with my older brother (for many, many reasons). My younger brother can't understand how I can turn my back on "my blood" ... um, what are you doing? No one has the right to tell me who to have a relationship with or to have in my life. It's my life and I shall live it as I choose.

[dollface]

Regarding the choice vs genetic theory: I was always taught (in a Catholic high school, no less) that homosexuality was a discovery, not a choice. Genes never even came into debate. But I guess you learn soemthing new everyday. Have there been cases where parents and children or siblings were discovered this way to be homosexual? Still trying to wrap my head around this new piece of info so forgive me if it doesn't make sense

If you want to hear another concept, on to the crazy part of my beliefs aka The Other Side. Each and every one of us comes to earth from The Other Side to learn and grow our spirits. We all chart our lives, families, friends, appearance, etc but we still have free will. So therefore, we charted our sexuality, then would it not be a discovery by our human minds? Or you can just call me lalaland lindsay (p.s. God loves everyone , he never holds a grudge, those that turn away from him are the ones who think they are not worthy (i.e. murder-suicides) and dark spirits.)

Regarding transgenders, I learned in my class a few days ago, that if a women is pregnant and is having a girl but then the mother starts producing testosterone, then that female baby will now produce male parts. What do you guys think?

Originally Posted by bendyfoot

And to everyone else who is reading and who may not feel comfie sharing their own experiences, I hope it's been a positive/affirming experience in some way.

I love you guys even if you don't love me somedays

In the school and home environment, the rightness of being right-handed was enforced with cruel verbal and physical abuse. Additionally, left-handed children frequently had their left hand tied behind their back to force them to use their right hands. Most children in this environment learned to write with their right hands but used their left hand as the lead hand for all other tasks as this would generally go unnoticed. Many used their left hand to write in private. They never stopped being left-handed, they merely learned how to use their right hands to avoid stigma and punishment.

Funny you should mention this, I specifically remember the day my little sister started holding a pencil in her hand, her left hand to be exact, and then my mother comes along and says "No, right hand!" and promptly shoved the pencil in her right hand. *tsk tsk* Ppl I have come across who are left handed are always more creative than right handers, most of them turn into artists, now my sister will have to work harder at being creative thanks to my mother

[Equla]

In the school and home environment, the rightness of being right-handed was enforced with cruel verbal and physical abuse. Additionally, left-handed children frequently had their left hand tied behind their back to force them to use their right hands. Most children in this environment learned to write with their right hands but used their left hand as the lead hand for all other tasks as this would generally go unnoticed. Many used their left hand to write in private. They never stopped being left-handed, they merely learned how to use their right hands to avoid stigma and punishment.

I completely missed this post. It's funny that you mention this. My mother was ridiculed for being left-handed in school and was "corrected" to being right-handed. When I was a baby, she handed everything to my right hand. If I reached up with my left hand, she wouldn't let me have whatever the object was until I reached for it with my right hand. Now, my left hand is barely functional enough to hold up the other half of a sandwich. LoL I tried to write with it once to unlock the other half of my brain in an exercise and my scrawl was so bad, it looked like a 3 year old was drawing on a piece of paper.

Additionally, my step-father writes left-handed, but bats, golfs, guitars, etc. right-handed.

Chico, I was young, dumb, and poor. The first pregnancy seemed like a blessing (...and baby makes three...), but we changed our minds about 6 months into the pregnancy. The second pregnancy was the result of poor birth control practices. I guess we thought we were invincible and the rhythm method would suffice. I always say "Birth control is expensive and sex is free."

The third pregnancy came as a total shock. The rhythm method had worked for 3 years, and after a particularly difficult second pregnancy, the doctors and I were under the impression that it would be very hard for me to accidentally get pregnant again. To top it off, the father had both low sperm count and low motility. His sperm were literally handicapped and swimming in circles. I still say that my egg jumped out onto my thigh with the red airplane directional thingies and directed the sperm into my uteris. Nature will find a way, right? I think Lily was meant to be. Even after having my tubes tied, if I skip a period or two, I start buying pregnancy tests. I still think nature will find a way with me.

[mummummum]

Originally Posted by bendyfoot

Here's an interesting exercise for people who think it would be easy to keep your sexual orientation out of an average everyday conversation...

Any number of off-shooting questions from the first two could make it even harder. The Pronoun Game is a hard one to win.

Easy-peasey..."They" is a lovely four-letter word.

Of course this is coming from a person who rewrote an entire collection agreement to turn the lonely "he" and "his" to "they" and "their" throwing in the odd "s/he" just to stir the pot every so often.

[mummummum]

Originally Posted by aslan

Oh no Jim you must come here for Pride. Not much you could show me that i havent seen before. We have one section of downtown, known as the Pink Triangle that is mainly gay owned business's or bars.

Actually Aslan, Jim's comment about Hallowscream rings a big bell. I'm not sure how long you've been in TO but, if you were around in the 70's you'll remember that the St. Charles Tavern (if memory serves ) on Yonge was a VERY happening place to be for Kings, Queens and all the gay Hallowscreamers (and half the suburb kids who came to gawk)

[Bailey_]

We don't get to know how our decisions will impact our lives later on. We have to make the choice right then and there.

I have to say Equla, I really appreciated this comment.

I'm currently going through a divorce and we have a 21 month old daughter. It's been incredibly difficult, and often times I have asked myself how this is all going to affect her future.

I have an amazing amount of support about my decision to finally leave, but I came from a family where my parents are still happily married to this day. It wasn't until this all happened that my Mom and Dad told me on seperate occasions that my Dad had an affair on my Mom when I was my daughters age and my Mom was pregnant with my brother. It was their way of telling me that if you try hard enough, you can work through the most impossible situations in a marriage.

It's made me question many times if I could potentially also forgive my husband and live a happy, fufilled life with him as my parents both have with eachother.
But I also know that I am much different person than my Mother - and on that basis I feel like I've made the best decision possible for my daughter and myself at this time.

So yes. I agree with your comment 100%.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by mummummum

Actually Aslan, Jim's comment about Hallowscream rings a big bell. I'm not sure how long you've been in TO but, if you were around in the 70's you'll remember that the St. Charles Tavern (if memory serves ) on Yonge was a VERY happening place to be for Kings, Queens and all the gay Hallowscreamers (and half the suburb kids who came to gawk)

I do totally remember the St. Charles,,i grew up in Toronto mf. I'm not quite old enough to remember it in it's hey day tho. Thus proving my comment about the gay village, yonge st is part of the pink triangle.

[14+kitties]

I had to laugh at the left handed vs right handed thing. Another little slice of my life happened that way with me as well. For the first ten years of my life we lived in a tiny village. The school was one of those rustic one room (in that case two room) schoolhouse. Our teacher taught all the grades from one to four. She was also the Sunday school teacher and devoutly religious. She felt the right hand was the hand of the Lord so naturally the left was the hand of . For the first months of both my first and second year in school she put a mitten on my left hand so I was forced to write with my right. Well, that lasted until my mom had a little chat with her. I still write left handed although with a lot of other things I am very ambidextrous.
My youngest son I thought was going to follow in my footsteps. My ex MIL tried changing his hands too. I told her to leave him alone. He will decide what hand he wanted to use. Now he uses his right hand to write, his left for just about everything else.

Y'know, as I read this amazing thread and everyone's stories I realize we all have a novel in us. That is what our lives are. So many twists and turns. So many obstacles in our way to get to where we finally are supposed to be.

[bendyfoot]

Originally Posted by mummummum

Easy-peasey..."They" is a lovely four-letter word.

Ah-ah-ah! Pronoun Game!!!

[joeysmama]

I haven't had time to read this whole thread, read the first couple pages and a few posts on this last page but of course I want to throw in my two cents. lol

First of all EQULA....adoption is the bravest most selfless way of handling the situation you found yourself in and I am so saddened that your family didn't offer you the support you deserve for that !! I don't know that I would have had the strength to do what you did. Hold your head high. You didn't choose an easy path but you chose a very loving path !!

Secondly, many of the screen names here don't make gender obvious and I'm really so busy that I don't take time to read between the lines so the pronoun game is lost on me. But now that I know that some people who mention "him" or "her" are hims and hers themselves I have to say that it doesn't make a whit of difference to me and please forgive me but I've already forgotten who is gay and who is straight.

I hold the old fashioned attitude that Miss Manners describes "What two people do in the privacy of their bedroom is their own business as long as they don't do it in the street and startle the horses." Really sex is a beautiful thing if you're one of the participants but it's a ridiculous custom in other people so I don't think about ANYONE else's sex life.


As fasr as rude questions I think the funniest one I ever got was at a breakfast buffet by a young woman who just HAD to be the wife of a Klansman. She came up to me and said that the people at her table "couldn't decide what you were so I said I would ask"

One person thought I was "white and another one said you must be black or "mulatto" (people still use that term?) or at least a puerto rican but someone else said that you were only an eye-talian or jew"

Wow...I guess I fit in almost anywhere but a Klan meeting !!!

[BenMax]

Joeysmama - I can totally relate to what you wrote in regards to the klansman.

I was at a party once with an XBF (that alone is another story), and someone there mentioned that there were 'pakies' that were going to move behind them. Once he said that, his wife hit him in the stomach and he replied..'oh not you because you are not the 'bad kind''. Well my response was it was ok to say since it comes from a hick MF born out of a pound....but it's not his fault that he was born from the bad kinda folk y'all'.
I did not take offense since I am not Pakastanie (can't even spell it)..but apparently we 'all look alike'. So I have been told...

[marko]

I Totally understand where you are coming from BM.

Some gals on this very board think I'm a closet lesbian or gay dude just because my wife dresses me and I'm well groomed sometimes.

[joeysmama]

Ben Max good for you for having a come back. I think I just stared blankly at her.

That wasn't the first or the last time I've heard comments like that but sheesh! To have a total stranger come up and let you know that the table is making bets on "what you are."

"pakie" is a new one to me. I never heard that one before. Good thing you're not the "bad kind"

[aslan]

Originally Posted by marko

I Totally understand where you are coming from BM.

Some gals on this very board think I'm a closet lesbian or gay dude just because my wife dresses me and I'm well groomed sometimes.

now now marko,, i was asked who was lesbian and i said, me, bendy and marko kinda sorta,,are you telling me you don't women.. and i'll confess when i saw you yelling " aslan" at me down the street, i thought yup big fag..

[marko]

(Note to self - gotta act more butch)

[aslan]

Originally Posted by marko

(Note to self - gotta act more butch)

lol, spit or something jeeez..

[luckypenny]

[bendyfoot]

Originally Posted by aslan

lol, spit or something jeeez..

scratching helps too