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  #1  
Old May 15th, 2007, 09:21 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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Antioxidant or Vitamin C for Dogs?

My 58 lb., 14 yr. old Lab takes antioxidant wafers from Oxyfresh that cost a fortune at my Vet's. In an effort just now to find a more economical source of these another Vet. clinic suggested I just give her 500 mg of Vit. C. instead. I just checked that out on the internet and found that dogs produce their own Vit. C in their bodies (humans don't) and it is not advisable to give them any Vit. C as it can contribute to kidney and liver disease, even though many Vet's still recommend it.

The oxyfresh antioxidant wafers contain Protein, Fat, Fiber and Moisture which I figure is in any item meant to be consumed orally and is not the "active" ingredient. They also have Vit. A 1,000 I.U., Vit. ? (doesn't say but I think it is E as E is mentionned elsewhere on the label) 5 I.U., Selenium 15 mcg and Vit. C 30mg with an asterisk to note that the Vit.C is "not recognised as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO dog Food Nutrient Profiles." My dog gets two of these a day. I pay $46 for a bottle of 60 wafers.

Am I being ripped off? Does she really NEED this stuff? Is there a safe, cheaper alternative?
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Old May 15th, 2007, 09:40 AM
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My thing, if the dog is fed a good quality diet, and is healthy, I wouldnt bother with suppliments. If, they are lacking however then you should look at it. What are you feeding her?
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Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth!

Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense.

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Old May 15th, 2007, 11:00 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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Eukanuba Adult Maintenance all her life till the company recently renamed it Medium Breed Adult. Why it was not Large Breed I don't know but this brand was confirmed with the store of purchase and with the Iams company. It has 140 I.U. of Vit. E.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 12:42 PM
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SableCollie SableCollie is offline
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Euk isn't the greatest...not by a long shot. I would invest some money in a better diet, instead of just supplementing. Dogs do produce their own vit C but many vets believe that supplementing can be effective for a variety of conditions. Is there a medical reason your dog was on the supplement? If the dog is healthy, and doesn't have any real reason to be on it, I would say no, completely unnecessary (tho I would still put her on a better diet...check out the food forums here).
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Old May 15th, 2007, 12:47 PM
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Be careful feeding "regular" vitamin C as it increases urine acidity, and depending on what type of PH urine your dog is producing this may over acidify.
Having said that the Oxyfresh may use a vitamin c such as Ester c which does not absorb into the body, buy have many wonderful properties antioxidant being one.
I just just plain Ester C (for the horses and the dogs) but yes, dogs do make there own, but as with Taurine (an amino acid) some people believe that some breeds/dogs do not make enough of their own
Good luck
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Old May 15th, 2007, 01:17 PM
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Yeah I would start with a diet change. I would look at Canidae, or Orijen or Innova as starting points.
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Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth!

Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense.

-J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938
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Old May 15th, 2007, 01:54 PM
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I use to feed Eukanuba and now feed Orijen - I have really seen a great change in my dogs after being on a better quality food.

That being said, would a food switch be hard on a 14 year old? Maybe someone else can answer that?

If you decide not to supplement - there are many foods that are rich in Vit. C and antioxidants. I give my dogs frozen or fresh blueberries for example
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Old May 15th, 2007, 01:58 PM
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Ya never know, it may give an old dog a new lease on life!
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Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth!

Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense.

-J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938
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  #9  
Old May 15th, 2007, 02:06 PM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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Nope, NOT going to change her diet. The breeder recommends Eukanuba, the Vet oKs it and she has done wonderfully on it all her life. She is 14 years old. Her coat glistens like satin and we have no digestive problems. Or any problems that can be attributed to diet. At this point I think we'd be crazy to mess around with her food. My only quest is to see if this antioxidant supplement is necessary and can be found in a less expessive form. The Vet likes it as an additional preventative and has suggested another one for the cats. For the cats we have found a good alternative to the one the Vet uses.

She loves blueberries and any kind of berry.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 02:12 PM
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As long as your happy with the quality of the food, then keep feeding it to her. but there is a lot of poor things in it.

Quote:
Chicken, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Fish Meal (source of fish oil), Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Brewers Rice, Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Dried Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Vitamins [Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Beta-Carotene, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid], Flax Meal, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Minerals [Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate], DL-Methionine, Rosemary Extract.
The bolded ones are just some of poor ingredients.

But like i said, as long as you're happy.

Just wanted to add, vets have very little nutritional info, and what they do get, its from the pet food industry, ie, medical, hills & Iams.
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Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth!

Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense.

-J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938

Last edited by Scott_B; May 15th, 2007 at 02:21 PM.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 02:41 PM
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Scott B is right - Eukanuba is not a very good food, for the reasons he already stated.

Does she really NEED the stuff?
Like everyone else said, if you switched her food to something of quality, than no you would not need the suppliment because she would actually get be getting the nutrients in her food.

Is there are safe, cheaper alternative?
The cheaper alternative would be to switch to a good food, simple as that.

If you want to stick with Eukanuba though, its up to you.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 02:41 PM
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pukenuba, made by iams who still practice vivisection (cruel animal testing in laboratories) - really, there is no excuse to feed such crappy food made by such a terrible mega-corporation.

you can give Ester-c tablets (NOT vitamin C) purchased from your local pharmacy as an antioxydant boost, also helps with arthritis, joint problems, etc. any extra is excreted in the urine so you can't overdose. many large-breed owners/breeders supplement their dog's diet with 500 to 1000mg of ester-c per day during the first 2 or 3 years of growth, to strenghten bones and joints. I give my dogs 500mg per day of Ester-C about 5 to 6 times per week. also helps with the immune system.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 04:06 PM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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I am not unaware of the controversy regarding many pet foods. Some years ago I contacted the breeder who is happy with Eukanuba. She is far more experienced than me. Here are some content descriptions from Eukanuba. I do not have a problem with these and believe them.

Chicken By-Product Meal (protein)
Chicken by-product meal is flesh and skin, internal organs including intestines, and bone that have been cleaned, dried, cooked and ground. It provides essential amino acids for muscle building, tissue repair, hormone synthesis and other metabolic processes. Internal organs are rich sources of protein, fats, and minerals, such as iron, that are essential to dog and cat health and add to the palatability of the pet food.

Including some ground bone provides a good source of minerals, such as calcium. Some pet-food manufacturers formulate their products without such ingredients to appeal to dog and cat owners, rather than for optimal health of dogs and cats. However, the nutritional needs of dogs and cats are not the same as the nutritional needs of humans. No company can say that their chicken/poultry is absolutely 100% free of beaks, feet, feathers, heads. Our suppliers do not add those parts, we specifically require that they not be included. They would decrease protein quality if they were there in measurable amounts. Tumors should not be there since those birds would be condemned. We use the non-economic parts of chickens that have been through USDA inspection. The advantages of Chicken By-Product Meal are the quality of the protein (quality is measured as biologic value - which is a measure of digestibility and the levels of essential amino acids that it can supply) and the levels of fat and minerals that it supplies - only chicken and egg are judged to be better. Chicken and egg go mostly for human consumption, so that leaves CBPM as the best available source.

Corn Meal (carbohydrate)
An excellent source of quick energy, these corn kernels are finely ground to break up the outside covering of each kernel, and then cooked at high temperatures to increase digestibility. Corn generally results in a lower glycemic and insulin response than rice. This can be especially beneficial for senior and overweight pets. Of the many dogs that regularly eat a food containing corn, only a few will develop an allergy to corn.

Fish Meal (protein)
Our fish meal comes from cold water sources in the north Atlantic and far south Pacific Oceans. It is the cleaned, dried, ground tissues of non-decomposed whole fish cuttings from which most of the oil has been removed. It is an excellent source of high-quality protein that is rich in fish oil. It is a source of omega-3 fatty acids shown to be important in blood clotting and decreasing inflammation, among other things. It provides essential amino acids for muscle building, tissue repair, hormone synthesis and other metabolic processes.

Beet Pulp (fiber)
Beet pulp is the material that remains after sugar is extracted from sugar beets - not red beets. Beet pulp is a source of fiber in dog and cat diets. It is a moderately fermentable fiber, and provides bulk for normal feces and provides energy for cells lining the intestine. It also enhances intestinal health and is broken down by intestinal bacteria to provide short-chain fatty acids, an energy source for intestinal cells. There is nothing in beet pulp that can affect coat pigment. The inside is light in color. The outside peel, which is dark, is not used. By definition, beet pulp is that material that remains after the sugar is removed from sugar beets. Therefore, beet pulp contains no sugar.

Dried Egg Product (protein)
Provides essential amino acids for muscle building, tissue repair, hormone synthesis and other metabolic processes.

Salt (mineral)
Sodium is an essential mineral for life. Found in the blood and in the fluid that surrounds cells, sodium maintains the cellular environment and prevents cells from swelling or dehydrating. Sodium is also important for maintaining proper nerve and muscle cell function. It is critical in maintaining the water balance between intra- and extracellular environments. Sodium is also necessary for normal function of nerve and muscle cells and for maintenance of cell membrane permeability. Meat, poultry, fish and eggs contain sodium. Inclusion of these ingredients in high quality pet foods will minimize the amount of sodium chloride (salt) that must be added separately, which means that salt may or may not appear in the ingredient list. Salt is included in nearly all animal feeds, including dog and cat foods. Some foods that are low in meats and animal-based protein sources may require higher levels of salt to enhance palatability.


I thank you for your concerns. I was concerned myself when I heard negative things about Eukanuba. As I mentionned, I checked it out with the breeder and my Vet and they are both OK with it. If I wasn't seeing such good results with it I would be more inclined to switch foods but this dog has and is doing fine on this food and I do think it would be exceedingly foolish to attempt to change her food at her age. My Vet's only concern is that she should be on a senior food. I did try to switch her over to a senior food, not Euk, but she lost weight dramatically and I went back. She has always been a very active dog. Not now of course, at 14, which is why she has gained three pounds, which is not cause for concern.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 04:24 PM
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erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
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The fact is that something cheaper actually would be a better food, Eukanuba is greatly over priced for the quality, I feed Orijen kibble now and it is cheaper than Euk. And far superior.
But in the end, believe what you want about loading your dog with carbs, I personally see no good in corn no matter how companies "sugar coat" the ingredient.
Have you looked into the negative sides to those ingredients as well???? Or are you just basing what you choose to believe on what the company that needlessly uses it says?

Some breeders feed Ol'Roy too, that doesnt make it a good quality food.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 04:31 PM
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There is never any guarantee in the quality of by-products. It is basically the parts of the animal that humans won't eat. I am sure Eukanuba says they use the highest quality by-products, so does your cheap store-brand pet food. Beet pulp is a stool hardener. Corn is used in almost of of the cheaper quality food, there is much debate over the digestibility of corn in carnivorous animals. Regardless of how digestible it is, it should never be one of the main protein sources in dog food. "Fish Meal" could really be any sort of fish, leftovers from the human seafood industry probably. It is preferable that the specific fish is stated (ex. "salmon meal" "herring meal") "Dried Egg Product" is not human food quality egg. It could be the underdeveloped eggs from slaughtered poultry, it could be anything "eggy" really. "Salt" is an essential mineral, but most foods contain enough salt without adding extra. Pet food companies are in the business of selling products, not nourishing pets. that's why consumers need to be more educated. I too used to think eukanuba was the best and my old dog did fine on it. But now I wonder how much better could she have done on a higher quality food? Check out http://www.dogfoodproject.com
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Old May 15th, 2007, 04:33 PM
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Heres a quick review of the food, if you choose to read it.
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_f...duct=107&cat=6

And from here
http://www.eridox.com/health/nutrition.php
Quote:
Fillers: Corn, sorghum, and soy are fillers. Their sole purpose is to make dogs feel full, but they don't really supply them with the nutrients they need. (As I once heard it put, 'A dog in the wild is not going to raid a cornfield looking for food.') Corn and similar products dry out coats out something horrible, which makes dogs scratch and become dandruffy. Plenty of dogs even have mild adverse reactions to these products (wheat too). Soy in particular is undigestible, and it can cause them to have bloat and gas. There is no good reason to have corn, soy, or sorghum products in a dog food.
Corn and/or soy products are found in: Alpo™, Diamond®, Eukanuba®, Fromm®, Iams®, Kibbles 'n Bits™, Ol' Roy™, Pedigree®, Purina®, Royal Canin™, and Science Diet™.
and

Quote:
Meat byproducts: Meat byproducts are the leftover materials from animal food sources that most people would consider unfit for human consumption: brains, bones, feathers/hair, horns/nails, skin, not-fully-digested excrement, etc. These byproducts are also not necessarily kept fresh before they are made use of in pet food. (I personally don't approve of my dogs eating half-rotten chicken poo, so I don't feed them a food that contains such a thing.) In particular, tallow, a hard, fatty material that is difficult to digest, is listed as an ingredient in some dog foods.
Meat byproducts are found in: Alpo™, Diamond®, Eukanuba®, Iams®, Ol' Roy™, Pedigree®, Purina®, and Science Diet™.
And to answer your origional question on suppliments or vitamins.
Quote:
If you feed your dog a high-quality dog food, the truth is, it does not need vitamin/mineral supplements unless it has a medical problem or a genetically-caused deficiency. If you are feeding your dog a high-quality food, adding extra supplements may throw off the balance of the food which already contains them. Whether a human or a dog, overdosing on vitamins and minerals can be just as bad as, if not worse than, not getting enough of them.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 09:55 PM
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LittleMissLevi LittleMissLevi is offline
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Vitamin C is in many of the high quality foods and seems to be fine, just ask your vet what dose they would recommend. I have heard 500mg/50lbs. As to giving Ester-C, ester-C is vitamin C they just claim it is friendlier on the stomach which there is no real evidence of this. Just another ploy to real people in to spend more money. I do agree with everyone else that the higher quality foods often contain the antioxidants in them already such as vitamin C, vitamin E ...this could potentially save you money in the end. Might want to really look into it.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 01:22 AM
Kodiak Bear Kodiak Bear is offline
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Is your dog doing well on the food? If so, try just the food without the supplement. Then if you see a difference (negative), source out a more inexpensive supplement. If there was no difference, then the dog wasn't actually utilizing the supplement.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 08:00 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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Erykah1310, do you know the source of that first website link? Is it Consumer's Reports? The Home button leads nowhere useful in this regard and I would like to examine their credentials and see who the editors are. The editors profile button did not have much information on who they were etc.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 03:52 PM
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No its not consumer reports.

Here is the main page.
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com

Here is how the foods are assesed.
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/how_d..._the_foods.htm

Either way, you are free to feed what ever you choose but it never hurts to learn as much as possible about ingredients IMO, and some of them are falsely made out to be good for your pet.
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Old May 18th, 2007, 08:23 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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Sorry, but that was no help at all. I can find nowhere that the people authoring these two seemingly complete and very good reports identify themselves. Learning as much as you can is good, as you say, and obviously I'm trying to do it. The internet can be a landmine of false information and it would be reassuing if the "editors" of these reports were accredited somehow, maybe as Veterinarians, animal food scientists, or professional researchers. It would be disturbing to find that they worked for one of the favourably mentionned companies.

Thanks though, I continue to learn.
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Old May 18th, 2007, 12:00 PM
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See, this is just it. Whos gonna pour money into this type of research? Only the large pet food compaines claim to do it. Why do vets sell medical, hills and iams? Because the reps are the ones teaching at the vet schools. So its what the vets are familiar with. So its up to us, the people to do the research. Find out what these ingredients are. Why they use them. Etc.
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Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth!

Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense.

-J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938
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Old May 18th, 2007, 01:08 PM
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SableCollie SableCollie is offline
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The woman at http://www.dogfoodproject.com is an animal care and nutrition consultant...
Quote:
After completing coursework in Animal Nutrition, Care, Physiology, Diseases and Parasitology, Sabine earned her certification in Animal Care from the University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada.
If you check out the dog food project site, she explains things very well, she tells you which ingredients to avoid, how to pick a good quality food, etc.

Vets receive very little nutritional training, it may be as short as a one day "nutrition seminar". In addition, companies such as Hills, Iams, Purina send their representatives to vet schools to help "teach" the students about nutrition. It's up to pet owners to research and learn what is best for their dog, if a pediatrician or day care provider recommended that your child eat only "Purina Kiddie Chow" because it is 100% complete and balanced, would you say, "oh okay, you must know best, you have been working with children for years," and rush out to buy a bag of "Kiddie Chow"? Of course not! (or at least hopefully not!)
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