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  #31  
Old April 16th, 2006, 10:49 AM
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Melei'sMom Melei'sMom is offline
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Not had that problem with any dogs I have trained myself...

But I did find this free dog training book, and just started reading it myself.

I think you might find at least a little of it helpful and hey, it's free! can't hurt right?

http://www.dogtrainingmasters.com/Do...manual_360.htm

The guy that wrote this has it up on the net for free and says to share, so I sent it to a few people I know and thought of you too spayeddog.

follow the links and directions and you get a mini-course and an ebook.

**my disclaimer** lol
not my book, don't know the guy. I don't recieve rewards or compensation of any kind. just want to share with anyone who may find it useful.
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Last edited by Melei'sMom; April 16th, 2006 at 10:53 AM.
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  #32  
Old April 17th, 2006, 09:42 PM
julesuoft julesuoft is offline
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Sprayeddog,

Sorry I didn't get a chance to reply sooner but to answer your question, Chloe was going through her terrible teenage years between 8-11 months. Here are some examples of what I'm talking about...

- Chloe would jump and nip at me when she went through her hyper phases. I have many pants with holes to prove it.
- We live in a condo and after a good hour walk/ play at the dog park, she would come back into the condo and run back and forth like a mad dog disturbing the residents below us.
- Chloe would go after our socks, hats and run under the table and chew them into shreds

As for the kids, we live in a condo with kids lining up for the school bus every morning at 8 am (exactly when we take Chloe out). The kids would run up to Chloe and that of course, would excite her and she would jump all over the kids. My only advice to you is, eventually, she got used to being around kids and she doesn't jump (as much anymore).

We started noticing a significant difference in her behaviour at about 12-13 months. Mind you, all dogs are different so it might take a bit longer with Matty. I've heard in the past that sometimes male dogs can be more hyper than females.. is Matty neutered? Sometimes that can play a part too.

Do you crate him? Chloe is crate trained - not sure if that makes a difference. Oh, and another thing, we never "yell" at Chloe (i.e. raise our voice). When we're upset with her, we use a stern, low voice. I can't say this is 100% full-proof but in almost 16 months, Chloe has barked 4 times!

Don't give up SD! I know it's really hard but I realized that labs are a lot of work too.. moreso than small dogs. It'll definitely get better and I think that with some minor adjustments, you guys will get through this very soon. Really, at 16 months, Chloe is a calm and happy dog and I'm sure Matty will be soon too!

As I'm sure I speak with others on the board, we are all rooting for you and your wife! Please dont think you're in the boat alone.. we've all been through this at one point or another.. some more/ less severe. Hang in there!
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  #33  
Old April 20th, 2006, 04:00 PM
sprayeddog sprayeddog is offline
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Thanks for all the support and advices.

We've been patiently putting up with Matty. Some days he's better than the others, but overall he's still a handful.

Yesterday for example, we came back after work, and just when I wanted to play with him outside he start jumping at me, nipping at me, and when I told him to "Sit" he started running around me like crazy ... good thing I had him on leash. Eventually I held him down for 15 minutes in the backyard and he calmed down a bit.

Later on at night he was acting like an angel, and I was playing hide and seek with him when all of a sudden out of the blue he started jumping at me and the kong I was holding. I told him to down, and he tried jumping at me and barking at me.

Matty is acting like a dog with split personality, and he can switch from one to the other all of a sudden. (well, swtiching from a little devil to an obedient doggie always requires us holding him down for 10 minutes or so until he gets the idea) I'm not going to pretend to be a dog psychologist / behaviourist, but some times Matty seems content with the idea of being the 'follower' in the 'pack', while other times he seems discontent with that and refuses to take commands from us, even if it's a simple sit or down or stay, even if he knows following command will actually get him treat /game play / patting.

Since both of us work, whenever we get to be at home we don't want to crate Matty. But it also makes it very difficult for us to get anything done around the house. Even getting dressed for work in the morning requires repeated discipline as he refuses to follow any of "Off", "Leave it", "Let go" or "stay" command without a fight. He'd constantly bite stuffs around our bedroom, bite the clothes in the closet, or climb up to the dresser to sniff / lick everything on it. We have to keep correcting him.

You know, in the past if I see dogs behaving like that I'd blame it on the owner for not training their dog, and allowing their dog to get to this state. Now I know better .... Matty has been trained, which shows the training techniques that I used did work ... it's just he's regressed and refused to follow command without giving it a fight all the times now.

So we'll just continue to be patient and hopefully he gets over this stage sooner than later. At least my wife's agreed to not bring up the 'give Matty away' topic until he's 1.5 yrs old. And she's getting pretty good at handling Matty when he's jumpy too. 9 times out of 10 she can hold him down when he's trying to jump at her. Rarely gets knocked down anymore now ... she used to get knocked down by Matty all the times.

btw, Matty is crated trained and is crated when we're not home. I tried letting him out while we're at work but he completely destroyed a carpet we had in the living room ... and he wouldn't even touch that carpet when we're home. And yes, Matty's been neutered.




SD

Last edited by sprayeddog; April 20th, 2006 at 04:04 PM.
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  #34  
Old April 20th, 2006, 09:10 PM
kaytris kaytris is offline
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Do you have any friends with young dogs of a similar temperament? There is nothing, NOTHING better for a young labrador to rough house, romp and wrestle with another young strong lab/golden/pitbull/boxer whatever.

Is there a doggy daycare nearby, or a professional dogwalker? To me, all this sounds simply as if Matty has too much energy, spends his days in a crate (and I understand that you have no choice) and then his evenings running rough shod all over you. A visit or two to doggy daycare, regular play dates or romps with a dogwalker will all help get his ya-ya's out.
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  #35  
Old April 20th, 2006, 09:10 PM
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Lissa Lissa is offline
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I know you've said that Matty has been to training but if I am remembering right, it was only 1 course? To me, both you, your wife and Matty need more obedience classes.

Now, I have a better idea of what you are dealing with. I looked after my friend's 14 month golden/lab mix. He is a power chewer, power puller, power jumper (on people), counter/table surfer, is destructive (needs to be crated), will not obey obedience commands unless there's food and constantly needs something to do. My friend told me that at home, all he does is sleep - at my place, I literally had no time to sit. I couldn't go on-line, read a book, watch TV or even sleep in the beginning! IMO, this dog had the mindset of a 2 month old puppy in an adult sized body - he had no idea how he was suppose to act so he did what comes naturally to dogs!

BUT having said that, after spending 1 day with me, this dog realized that he couldn't get away with his usual behaviour. Not only did he work for everything but by the time he left, he stopped pulling, counter surfing and jumping on me; he'd sit without food and learned that he didn't get to do what he wants when he wants in MY care (dogs thrive on this - they need to know what the limits are). To me, the dog I looked after acted out because:
#1 - negative reinforment is better then no reinforcement (so I ignored ALL misbehaviour, ex: he kept picking up pegs from the laungry room to chew on...Instead of chasing after him, I watched him - when he realized there was no reaction, he gave the peg one chomp and went into a down with a confused look. That is when I chose to call him over, toss a ball and remove the peg. He did that 3 times and that was it because I didn't react by chasing after shouting for him to drop it)
#2 - boredom and an excess of energy (so he got a lot of physical and mental stimulation. The first couple of days, we were outdoors constantly. IMO, dogs have a prey drive that needs to be filled each day. In the morning its empty and if they don't have the opportunity to fill their prey drive, chances are, you won't get much attention or respect from them. So, we played a lot of retrieving games, combined with training and interactive toys = calm/sleepy dog! )
#3 - no structure, made worse when the owners exercise him because he is let off-leash for convenience sake [to tire him out] without earning it (so he was allowed to play with my dog in the house and in the backyard but on a walk, he always had a long-line attached. If he didn't listen or started to wonder off, the long-line was in my reach and he went back on a regular 6ft leash. He didn't eat, play, get attention or rest without me reminding him that I was in charge. It was like boot camp but I can guarantee that he would rather live in a boot camp then with zero restrictions)
I love this dog and my friend but those 4 days proved that in a structured, no-nonsense environment he could easily be a good canine citizen.
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Last edited by Lissa; April 21st, 2006 at 07:02 AM.
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  #36  
Old April 21st, 2006, 10:26 AM
sprayeddog sprayeddog is offline
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Once again thanks for your suggestions Lissa. I really appreciate your advices, and the fact a lot of ppl here are trying to help us and Matty.

Quote:
I know you've said that Matty has been to training but if I am remembering right, it was only 1 course? To me, both you, your wife and Matty need more obedience classes.
I don't disagree with that, and we've been looking at signing up for "intermediate obedience class". Part of me is thinking I should get Matty to at least achieve the same level of obedience when he finished the beginner obedience class before I get him to start on the intermediate level ... cos the way he acts sometimes he won't really be learning anything from an intermediate class. Say, it he wouldn't even "down" on command then what can we possibly learn from the "down with distractions" exercise in an intermediate training class? While others are training their dogs to remain "down" position with distraction, I'll be stepping on his leash and trying to keep him calm and quiet and get him to do a "down".

But another part of me is saying let's give him a chance and see how he does.

Quote:
Now, I have a better idea of what you are dealing with. I looked after my friend's 14 month golden/lab mix. He is a power chewer, power puller, power jumper (on people), counter/table surfer, is destructive (needs to be crated), will not obey obedience commands unless there's food and constantly needs something to do. My friend told me that at home, all he does is sleep - at my place, I literally had no time to sit. I couldn't go on-line, read a book, watch TV or even sleep in the beginning! IMO, this dog had the mindset of a 2 month old puppy in an adult sized body - he had no idea how he was suppose to act so he did what comes naturally to dogs!
Sounds similar to Matty!

Quote:
BUT having said that, after spending 1 day with me, this dog realized that he couldn't get away with his usual behaviour. Not only did he work for everything but by the time he left, he stopped pulling, counter surfing and jumping on me; he'd sit without food
So Lissa how much will it cost me to have you spend 1 day with Matty? Because whatever that is, I'll pay you!

Quote:
#1 - negative reinforment is better then no reinforcement (so I ignored ALL misbehaviour, ex: he kept picking up pegs from the laungry room to chew on...Instead of chasing after him, I watched him - when he realized there was no reaction, he gave the peg one chomp and went into a down with a confused look. That is when I chose to call him over, toss a ball and remove the peg. He did that 3 times and that was it because I didn't react by chasing after shouting for him to drop it)
I guess you mean if the dog is not reacting to negative attention (correcting him) then just ignore him (no attention) and see if he would behave?

It's an interesting idea, but then it's not always applicable. It's one thing if he's chewing on the peg, but it's another if he's chewing on your laundry, or your plant or your furnitures right?

Plus, I am also afraid he might get the wrong idea that "Ok, so it is OK to chew on pegs because dad and mom doesn't stop me from doing it."?

I understand your point, and that's what I do sometimes. When he's jumping at me, most of the times I just turn around, cross my arms and say "No jumping". He's getting pretty good at it these days that when I turn around and cross my arms he'd 'sit' and 'down', knowing that's what he should do to get my attention, not jumping.

But of course, there are the other times when I turn around and cross my arms and give him no attention that he'd just wander off and start chewing on other things, forcing me to give him attention.

Or, in my wife's case, he'd nip on her pants, forcing her to give him (negative) attention.

So I'd say the "no attention instead of negative attention" approach is not bad, and I'm going to try it more often wherever applicable, but it is not always applicable. There are cases that you HAVE to correct him - do you agree?


Quote:
#2 - boredom and an excess of energy (so he got a lot of physical and mental stimulation. The first couple of days, we were outdoors constantly. IMO, dogs have a prey drive that needs to be filled each day. In the morning its empty and if they don't have the opportunity to fill their prey drive, chances are, you won't get much attention or respect from them. So, we played a lot of retrieving games, combined with training and interactive toys = calm/sleepy dog! )
Yes I wholeheartedly agree with that, and I've given him as much exercise as we possibly can. The thing is, we both work, so that becomes a limitation. I can't spend 2 hours with him in the morning, but I do wake up earlier to play fetch with him in the morning, as well as practise / train him on the usual commands to tire him down mentally and physically. When we get home, again we play with him before dinner, and train / teach him commands after dinner.

I know some posters have suggested hiring someone to walk him or using doggie-daycare. Let's say in my area, doggy daycare and hiring someone to walk him are both very expensive and not within our budget. We do try to give him as much exercise as we can.

I am not sure energy level is a problem, because each time after we play / train him, he's literally catching his breath, and he's literally dragging his feet as he walks. As I run, and I ask him to follow me, he'd sit half-way through not because he's disobedient but because he's too tired. So I take it he IS indeed tired at those moments, but yet he still misbehaves at the same time.


My neighbour's also adopted a dog recently and she's a 3 yr old who acts like a puppy. We'll talk to them and try to see if they'd let Matty play with their dog in the backyard from time to times. Cos sometime that's the best way to tire both dogs down, and also give them a chance to socialize with each other.

I do have a question - when the dogs are playing, what level of supervision / interaction should we (as owners) have? Should I just let them do whatever unless one dog is hurting the other? Or should I play WITH them? (let's say ask them both to fetch?)


Quote:
#3 - no structure, made worse when the owners exercise him because he is let off-leash for convenience sake [to tire him out] without earning it (so he was allowed to play with my dog in the house and in the backyard but on a walk, he always had a long-line attached. If he didn't listen or started to wonder off, the long-line was in my reach and he went back on a regular 6ft leash. He didn't eat, play, get attention or rest without me reminding him that I was in charge. It was like boot camp but I can guarantee that he would rather live in a boot camp then with zero restrictions)
Well as is, Matty *is* already in a boot-camp ... or so I think anyways.

This is our routine. When we wake up in the morning, we let him out to pee and poo, then we feed him, and then we play with him. Before ANY of these activities (go out to pee, feed, play) we always ask him to do a few commands first. Anytime he doesn't comply he's on a short leash and attached to one of us. As he gets better, the leash is removed. The minute he disobeys 1 command, or try to jump at us, or bark at us, he's back on a short leash. This applies outside as well as INSIDE the house.

When we have breakfast I ask him to down and stay on a mat beside us. He can scratch himself, roll around or do whatever as long as he stays down on that mat. If he gets out of the mat, I'll get him back and ask him to do a down-stay again. One more time he gets up he's on a leash again, and is restricted to a down position beside me for the rest of my breakfast (and I'll have to eat with 1 hand, but I'm used to it now). If he can stay down for the entire breakfast, I release and reward him.

Afterwork when we get home I let him out of the crate, and same thing as in the morning as we let him out to pee /poo, feed him and play with him. Then we have dinner and after dinner we play / train with him again,. He's always asked to do SOMETHING before we feed him / let him out / play with him. Evrytime before I throw the kong out he has to sit beside me, or down beside me, and sometimes he has to 'hand' or 'wave'. If he doesn't comply he's on a leash and all games end. Once he's on a leash I'll ask him to do a series of commands, lots of push up's (down / sit / down / sit ...), lots of down-stays'. Only if he completes all those I'd let him off-leash again.

So EVERYTHING in Matty's life (food, games, threats, rewards, pats) he has to EARN as is. And that's part of the reason why Matty's "mis-behaving" a lot, cos we demand A LOT from him, and we never let him off the hook if he doesn't follow a command.

I think this is what you mean by a boot-camp?

It's not easy, and it's mentally and physically exhausting on me as I'm sure it is on him. Somtimes I see ppl who just let their dog do whatever, and correct them only if they MUST, and it's much easier that way. But I think a very structured life is better for me and the dog in the long run. It's going to be tougher in the beginning, as it's more restrictive for the dog and it's against his natural life-style, but IMO that's the way to go in the long run.

You see, contrary to what some may think I *do* enjoy training dogs. And I DID enjoy training Matty a lot when he was a puppy, because he's by far the most intelligent dog I've worked with. But you'd enjoy it only if you work through it and you see results. It isn't so much fun when a dog who KNEW something has regressed and you have to re-train everything, and he's not respecting you. And now if this is a 7/24 job ... well you get the idea.

In the past my wife's always taken her dogs to be "anmial therapist" for volunteer work in the hospitals, and that's part of the reason we train Matty this way. Matty won't get the most resonable response from disabled kids in the hospital, and if he can't even be obedient when dealing with a rational individual never mind working with disabled kids. So needless to say, we've been very disappointed with Matty (and ourselves) thus far as he's FAR from that standard. All I'm hoping is if we keep up with the 'boot camp' training he'll eventually get over this phase and we'll have a canine citizen that can be a dog therapist.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for the advices and supports!

And I'm happy to say at least last night and this morning Matty's been a good boy. There's been several times he wanted to act up while we're playing with him / training him, but he hesitated in both cases and didn't head down that road. Matty's a very stubborn dog, but even then I got a feeling he's beginning to realize "Ok, jumping at Daddy ALWAYS get me into a bad situation in the end ... so let's follow him and get the reward instead."

Maybe it's nothing but it could also be the beginning of Matty finally turning around? A glimpse of hope is still better than nothing ... I sure hope it's the light at the end of the tunnel.



SD

Last edited by sprayeddog; April 21st, 2006 at 10:53 AM.
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  #37  
Old April 21st, 2006, 11:15 AM
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phoenix phoenix is offline
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Hey sd,
I'm glad that some things might be getting better for you!

I just want to give a bit of advice about 2 of the pieces of your last post (too long to quote!!)

First, about the negative reinforcement. I've tried to explain this before... it's not ignoring the dog, it's ignoring the behaviour. So, if you ignore his jumping by turning and crossing your arms, and he goes off and chews something, I would say that is because you did not show him the behaviour that you do want him to do. The idea is not to punish for what he did do that was 'wrong', but rather to direct him into the behaviour that is 'right'. Ignoring him and letting him go off to another bad behaviour isn't, as you said, appropriate at all.

For a dog, any attention is good attention. So, try to manipulate the situation so that you are responding to good things in a positive way. If he's chewing a sock, say drop it or leave it or whatever you've taught him, and exchange the sock for a bone or his toy. Then you can praise him for chewing the right thing.

Second, I do agree that playing with other dogs is valuable. It does really tire them out and also teaches them about respectful behaviour, if the dog they're playing with is dominant or older. For supervision and interaction, I like to let dogs play and work things out on their own. If one is becoming too much, the other dog will warn him with a growl or nip and then turn away. If the dog doesn't take that warning and keeps being too rough, that is when I step in and give a little 'time out'... once he relaxes a bit I let him go again. You could play fetch but I normally find this leads to jealousy or possessiveness about the toy. Depends on the dogs. I would suggest that these plays happen on neutral ground, so no dog thinks he owns the territory or feels defensive.

Third, I would support your idea about going to class (or even better I think, your wife taking him to class)> Most of class is teaching you how to communicate with your dog, not really teaching him how to behave. Don't worry about getting him 'up to snuff' as he was before. Certainly the trainer will help to sort out what's going on.

Good luck with everything.
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  #38  
Old August 1st, 2006, 04:43 PM
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TMac TMac is offline
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how is Matty?

Hi Sprayeddog

I was reading about your adventures with your bratty teenager (I did a search in this forum for 'teenager' since my golden is going through this too right now).

Just wondering how Matty is now?

And I also wanted to tell you that even though this phase is more than you bargained for, you may have experienced the same thing with other breeds anyways. Exhibit A: my golden retriever. He is 2.5 and started his teenage phase at 2 years and is not done yet!

We had a lab before and I have to tell you that one day, when Matty settles down, you will be extremely happy that you chose a lab! They are wonderful dogs and so long as you keep trying through this TEMPORARY period and do the best that you can do - you will end up with a wonderful wonderful lab!!!

Good luck and keep up the amazing work you are doing!

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  #39  
Old August 1st, 2006, 05:44 PM
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phoenix phoenix is offline
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tmac, this is the middle of the story- in the end, we didn't hear what happened but last we knew, he was going to rehome matty.
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  #40  
Old August 1st, 2006, 05:55 PM
White Wolf White Wolf is offline
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Here is the most recent thread: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=27598
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  #41  
Old August 1st, 2006, 06:24 PM
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And Lucky for Matty that she is being rehomed that poor dog had no leadership and that is all our dogs want is to please us. Hopefully they will never put another dog through living with them.
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  #42  
Old August 2nd, 2006, 04:32 PM
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Matty

Oh that is so sad! I read the latest thread (thanks White Wolf - I'm still so new I didn't see that before ).

Sprayeddog, if you are still checking in on pets.ca, I am sure I'm not the only one who hopes you are not discouraged by the forum. After reading all the postings, it looks like - quite frankly - that you did do a lot more than most people would in the general dog-owning population (people on this forum probably go the extra 10 miles because they are so moved by helping animals and so standards are a lot higher than in the general population - and that is a good thing!).

Sprayeddog - you tried really hard. I hope you kept Matty, but if not - I hope he went to a good rescue. If you do want to try a lab again (and I think you should because they're awesome - we got one from Eastern Ontario Lab Rescue), I would recommend an older lab - probably over 3 years old. Then you can skip the nightmare part and enjoy the good part, including the fact that you gave an older dog a second chance!

Good luck!
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  #43  
Old August 2nd, 2006, 07:34 PM
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TMac you are a diplomat and an optomist.
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