Clostridium Nightmare

[Keeler]

Hi

I am wondering if anyone out there has any experience with clostridium perfingens in a dog. Here's the story: My sister selectively breeds dogs (one only breed) and I have one of her dogs, Max. Several years back after returning from a dog show, something went through the kennel. All of the dogs at one point or another had very smelly poops that tended to be quite slimy, sometimes uncontrollable crampy diahhrea, sometimes with casings on them. All got better spontaneously, but occassionally a food change would give them a bit of an upset for a day or two, but nothing like the original outbreak. In terms of food, all of the dogs including Max are on very good food, some of it commercial (duck and potatoe) and some like Max, on a home food diet that has cooked meats and veggies.

Six months ago after babysitting two strange dogs (one had a loose bowel) for a week, something hit again. About two weeks after the visiting dogs left, the older dogs started with very bloody diahhrea and I mean bloody diahhrea (blood dripping from their rectums). One of the older dogs who was already immunocompromised with cancer, died. The other older dog, as well as the younger ones that had the same symptoms were all put onto Flagyl and the diahhrea instantly stopped.

My own dog went home with me and came down with the same thing. Crampy, bloody diahhrea and was put onto Flagyl. Tests showed that it was clostridium perfingens.

The problem is that about two weeks after they come off a three to four week schedule of Flagyl, the problems come right back again. Just before Christmas the vets put all the dogs onto Tylan and while it controls the symptoms, the bloody diahhrea returns after about 3 weeks off of it.

We are at our wits end, as I think the vets are. We have tried diet changes, adding in some traditional chinese medicine, tests reveal no abnormalities with pancreas, kidneys or the presence of any other bacteria.

If anyone has any suggestions or has been through something like this with clostridium, your input would be gratefully accepted and appreciated!


Keeler

[luckypenny]

"Clostridium perfringens" is a bacterial food poisoning if I'm not mistaken. Have all these dogs been eating the same food? Has there been a microscopic examination done of all their stools? The symptoms you describe also sound like severe intestinal parasites in which case Panacur (fenbendazole) would likely work better.

[Keeler]

Hi

We've had all of the symptomatic dogs' stools tested and they show clostridium as well as the enterotoxin that it produces when it is active. No parasites or any other organism show up. My understanding is that 80% of dogs carry clostridium in their bowels, but that it is mostly in its dormant state until something causes it to become active and spore.

As for food, they are all on something different; no commonalities in this area.

[badger]

Sounds like drug resistance. You didn't say if you had consulted other, more specialized vets or vet schools.
Have you ever thought of consulting a vet who uses alternative treatments? I was just wondering if in that three-week window after the animal comes off Flagyl (or whatever), there may be something that could help interrupt the cycle.
I seem to be on a slippery elm bandwagon lately, but I would be giving them a daily dose. You could check with your vet, but I don't believe there would be any conflict with regular meds. There are slippery elm products for dogs for sale on the internet; I use the pure powder mixed with water.

[Keeler]

There are currently two vets who are involved in these cases, one uses a conventional method and the other used a holistic approach. All the dogs, indepedent of approach are in the same situation.

I think the idea of drug resistance is not to far off to be honest. It seems that the drugs do a good job of stopping the clostridium from being active in the moment, but once they are removed it starts up again. Tells me at least, that one option is that the organism is not being completely removed with the drugs.

Have you noticed anything in terms of a side effect with the slippery elm?

Keeler

[badger]

One technique I have heard of is to leave them on the meds longer than the usual 2-3 weeks - like three or four months, but I have no idea if it would apply in your case. Whatever they throw at this, the effect of the medication can't be benign, which is why I suggested slippery elm. It is mucilagenous, which means it thickens in the gut (and even before you give it) and coats the entire digestive system so any inflammation is reduced. It has healing qualities as well, but I don't know if that would extend to bacterial toxins. As far as I have observed and read, there are absolutely no negative side effects. You could almost call it a food.

[hazelrunpack]

Our dogs had a lot of problems with clostridium flare-ups when we increased our Pack to 6 from 3. Lots of stress, I suppose. We found that, besides the metronidazole (Flagyl), plain yogurt mixed in with their food helped a lot. It seemed to help normalize the bacteria populations in the gut, which brought the clostridium back to normal levels. We used a robust tablespoon per meal (they eat twice daily).

[Keeler]

My dog Max gets a good dollop of yogurt twice a day (only way that he will take the Tylan) and my sisters dogs are on a combo of yogurt and probiotic.

We have wondered about the stress angle. Her pack is kind of big and always in flux. As for my own dog, well maybe he's picking up on my menopause swings.

Thanks everyone for the information on slippery elm. I have my fingers crossed that it will eventually run its course and go away.