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  #31  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
Reputable breeders don't advertise on kijiji. Did you also know that it's not uncommon for BYB to actually charge MORE for puppies than a reputable breeder would?

Just have to interject here. Reputable breeders do indeed advertise on kijiji. They are trying to push out some of the bybs and millers who advertise by offering their dogs at a slightly reduced cost than the bybs do. At least this is what I have read.
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Last edited by 14+kitties; February 2nd, 2011 at 12:14 PM.
  #32  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by erykah1310 View Post
I am also entitled to my opinion and I can most certainly keep pointing out that not all breeders are the same.
Thanks for the "suggestion" I dont see the need though
I would take the suggestion to heart.
Never did I say that all breeders are horrible. Never did I say I was anti-breeding. What I am saying is that some of the breeders even under the CKC are crap so who is governing what and who is saying who is a good or bad breeder? There are NO guidelines.

Personally erykah - since meeting you I have to say that you have definately opened my eyes. I really dislike breeders now. Heck I don't think I will give any of them a chance in the future. I should really stick to what I know, and leave the rest of you breeders to look the other way. BUt - I will be there to pick up the left over puppies and maybe adults that get mixed up in the system. You can count your cheerios on that.
  #33  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
You are right, not all breeding is the same, those poor pups in mills are abused, period, and it should be illegal.
Absolutely

Quote:
I'll say it again, to think you can have those who are so passionate and give up their lives to save unwanted animals and then people start talking about bringing more into the world does not work. Humans are emotional and the more passionate they are, the more emotional they will be.
I understand the emotions, I do. But to target breeders who do the best they can for their breed (even through rescue of them) and promote responsible breeding will not stop the real problem. If all reputable breeders stopped breeding do you think that would solve the mass production of mills and byb'ers? It wont.

Quote:

The one thing that makes Pets.ca such a wonderful site are the members who give up so much to save dogs and cats. It is the one site that is so pro spay/neuter that we can come and rant/talk/share. There are so many other dog forums out there that do have "breeding" forums that breeders could go to, I just don't understand why the few breeders stick around and throw it in rescuers' faces. It is like a kick in the gut.
Maybe because we too like the site for the most part. If it is that offensive for the few breeders to come on here and try to educate the difference between breeders for anyone, even lurkers to read and hopefully change a few peoples minds who are considering buying a puppy mill or bargain back yard bred dog to know the difference in breeding ethics, then maybe a new rule should be made and all of us banned.
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  #34  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
I'm certainly not a breeder, but I do support the reputable, ethical ones. It's unfortunate you feel I am not welcome here.
Don't take it personal , I don't think I said: Loki Love you are not welcome here . And why do you always attack me for my opinion . Am I not allowed to have one You just jump right on me every time I state my opinion and I am not even responding to one of your posts .
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  #35  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
I would take the suggestion to heart.
Or???

Quote:
Never did I say that all breeders are horrible. Never did I say I was anti-breeding. What I am saying is that some of the breeders even under the CKC are crap so who is governing what and who is saying who is a good or bad breeder? There are NO guidelines.
CKC is only a registry, its well known that they dont care who is breeding. Breeders with a breed club are governed by their club, registries do nothign but take money for registration.

Quote:
Personally erykah - since meeting you I have to say that you have definately opened my eyes. I really dislike breeders now. Heck I don't think I will give any of them a chance in the future. I should really stick to what I know, and leave the rest of you breeders to look the other way. BUt - I will be there to pick up the left over puppies and maybe adults that get mixed up in the system. You can count your cheerios on that.
Yup, cause thats what we all do, look the other way. It doesnt bother me if you like me or not, hop on the band wagon around here. I dont come here to make friends and be accepted by people I would never meet, I come here to share. So if what I am sharing is so offensive and repulsive that I will soon be posting for the sake of taking up space on the site so be it.
I will count my cheerios that the puppies and adults mixed up in the "system" will not be from COE breeders.
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  #36  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erykah1310 View Post
I dont come here to make friends and be accepted by people I would never meet, I come here to share.
I don't know if that was individually directed or not but I take offense to that. I have many friends on this board that I have met, did I come here to meet them, nope, did I end up meeting them through other parts of my life, yes...... and I can tell you that most of the folks on this board that I know would walk through a burning house for an animal if I asked them to. I have breeder friends, I have rescue friends and I have breeder friends who rescue. Big deal, at the end of the day their hobbies or beliefs do not define them nor should they IMHO.
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  #37  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erykah1310 View Post
Or???


CKC is only a registry, its well known that they dont care who is breeding. Breeders with a breed club are governed by their club, registries do nothign but take money for registration.



Yup, cause thats what we all do, look the other way. It doesnt bother me if you like me or not, hop on the band wagon around here. I dont come here to make friends and be accepted by people I would never meet, I come here to share. So if what I am sharing is so offensive and repulsive that I will soon be posting for the sake of taking up space on the site so be it.
I will count my cheerios that the puppies and adults mixed up in the "system" will not be from COE breeders.
Or nothing. I find all this breeding stuff alittle sickening to be honest. Share all you wish, I am totally turned off at this point.
  #38  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 12:47 PM
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I have to make one more comment if I may.
A very VERY good friend of mine is a breeder. Believe it or not I was far more closed minded than I am today. She taught me so much about breeding and her mind set in this subject. I gained so much respect for her as she did put a heck of alot of money into her dogs. Those that were not considered good breeding dogs were never bred. They are her dogs now. She helped me tremendously during the Quebec husky crisis (something that some here do not know about). She took in a few, and rehomed, and kept tabs on them. She also kept a little monster dog I rescued as I could not reach this dog at all. She worked with him for months, re-homed, and he came back. She kept him as her own. She ceased breeding for a while as she saw that her beloved breed was in shelters (not her dogs, but others). She takes them in and re-homes as she saw a huge rescue requirement and not a breeding requirement. I respect her approach with me and also I embraced her education.
She in my opinion is a fantastic person and breeder. She knows when to stop based on our rescue crisis.
I never said I disliked good breeders, what I am saying is take a flipping break as she did based on what is seen across this nation in regards to animals being euthanized every darn day. Walk into pounds where they gas and hear the howls or the cats scream. Watch all those dogs going one at a time for the 'needle'. My heart breaks for every soul...I wish I never looked..but I did.
  #39  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
I think you have been on this forum long enough to know there is only one person who actively makes it know she plans on (or has already) bred, so I am not sure what audience you were targeting?


Also, since I don't think opinions have changed since the last closed thread about breeding, I am wondering what you were expecting from starting this thread?
Exactly what is going on right now as far as i'm concerned,,,no i will not bash Erykah for breeding if she is doing it ethically anymore than i would ever insult Benmax who i love to death(and yes i've met her in person)...I personally am sick and tired of this constant crap going on bashing each other back and forth.

Last edited by Blackbear; February 2nd, 2011 at 08:12 PM.
  #40  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
She ceased breeding for a while as she saw that her beloved breed was in shelters (not her dogs, but others). She takes them in and re-homes as she saw a huge rescue requirement and not a breeding requirement. I respect her approach with me and also I embraced her education.
She in my opinion is a fantastic person and breeder. She knows when to stop based on our rescue crisis.
I never said I disliked good breeders, what I am saying is take a flipping break as she did based on what is seen across this nation in regards to animals being euthanized every darn day.
I cant speak for all breeders of every breed but for the TM breeders none of the CTMS breeders bred this year nor do any of us have the intention for next year for this exact reason.
Now, who ever bred in that kijiji link... Since having that breeding brought to my attention I have forwarded the link to all Canadian and many US breeders in the event that this is a non breeding dog that was sold to that area being bred. This is what the TM community that I am involved with does. We cant force a person to honor a contract and far too many people will sign anything thinking they will never be caught. I know all breeders are going through records upon recieving my email and trying to figure out where these pups origionated from.
If indeed it is a non breeding dog who was bred, they will be called out on it. Its happened a few times in the US and dogs were taken back.


BenMax, I truely and honestly respect all the work you do, I really cant thank you enough for devoting as much time and heartache to what you believe in, no matter how much bickering or disagreements we may have, my thoughts and opinons on anyone who opens their heart, homes, wallets ect to help animals in need, in anyway no matter how large or small, will always stand above a personal conflict I may have with a person.
I dont expect everyone to agree with breeding, I dont agree with most breeding practices and even my own breeding "program" needs some fine tuning, when a breeder walks around claiming they are doing everything right and nothing needs improving on.. this is where the problems start. However since working closely with some very wonderful breeders as my mentors and seeing first hand the work and dedication they have put into the breed and having them compared to the puppy mill on the next road over from me, with no recognition of the difference between the two, it is truely insulting to me.
Opinons will differ, as will beliefs and morals, but even breeders can and do have the same goal in mind as rescues. Keeping pets OUT of shelters and ensuring they find wonderful forever homes.
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  #41  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 04:30 PM
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While I would never consider breeding myself (or purchasing another dog from a breeder... our next will be a senior from the Malamute rescue), I do believe that people are entitled to their own opinions. Personally, I didn't see anything offensive in this thread, other than the fact that they were talking about breeding, which I know is offensive to most people here. Why not just stay out of the thread. I have had to force myself to do the same on several occasions lately. If I don't agree, I just won't comment. But I do respect ethical breeders. I have known a few, and the ones who are truly dedicated to the breed do not make much (if any) money. Some even go in the hole once all the bills for testing and vet care have been paid. I know there are already too many homeless animals, but really... it's not the ethical and diligent breeders. The anger needs to be directed at the root which is the BYB and the mills, IMO.
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  #42  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Rgeurts View Post
While I would never consider breeding myself (or purchasing another dog from a breeder... our next will be a senior from the Malamute rescue), I do believe that people are entitled to their own opinions. Personally, I didn't see anything offensive in this thread, other than the fact that they were talking about breeding, which I know is offensive to most people here. Why not just stay out of the thread. I have had to force myself to do the same on several occasions lately. If I don't agree, I just won't comment. But I do respect ethical breeders. I have known a few, and the ones who are truly dedicated to the breed do not make much (if any) money. Some even go in the hole once all the bills for testing and vet care have been paid. I know there are already too many homeless animals, but really... it's not the ethical and diligent breeders. The anger needs to be directed at the root which is the BYB and the mills, IMO.
I guess I look at it as: If you are adding to the dog/cat population, you are part of the dog/cat overpopulation. If you want to be part of the solution, then helping those who want a quality dog/cat by directing them to rescues/shelters and help find a quality dog/cat.

For the love of dogs, please help find homes for those who are currently living, rather than producing more.
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  #43  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rgeurts View Post
While I would never consider breeding myself (or purchasing another dog from a breeder... our next will be a senior from the Malamute rescue), I do believe that people are entitled to their own opinions. Personally, I didn't see anything offensive in this thread, other than the fact that they were talking about breeding, which I know is offensive to most people here. Why not just stay out of the thread. I have had to force myself to do the same on several occasions lately. If I don't agree, I just won't comment. But I do respect ethical breeders. I have known a few, and the ones who are truly dedicated to the breed do not make much (if any) money. Some even go in the hole once all the bills for testing and vet care have been paid. I know there are already too many homeless animals, but really... it's not the ethical and diligent breeders. The anger needs to be directed at the root which is the BYB and the mills, IMO.
Already know that Rgeurts. No education is required to pinpoint the source of why so many breeds are butchered by bybs and millers. I can assure you this is understood.
Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I hardly think I personally said that all breeders are horrific..I have said the contrary.
You are wrong about one thing. Once all testing is done, and a litter is sprung..and assuming all are ok., there is no further requirement to commence testing again unless you are adding a new breeding dog. I realize that the money made is put back into the breeding stock to perhaps find other dogs to fit the bill to continue to breed..this is by choice and not requirement. In the end, money is made somewhere along the line. It is not a lose lose situation.
  #44  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
Don't take it personal , I don't think I said: Loki Love you are not welcome here . And why do you always attack me for my opinion . Am I not allowed to have one You just jump right on me every time I state my opinion and I am not even responding to one of your posts .
You're certainly allowed to have your opinion - I don't think I said 'Love4himies, you aren't allowed an opinion' (if we're going to play that game..) I think sometimes when opinions are posted, you have to remember you may in fact be inadvertently driving members away and not making them feel welcome or comfortable to participate in discussions. That's all. Maybe people don't care about that, but I still find it sad that we have to be so divided. Have your opinion - but suggesting people who believe in reputable breeding find another forum.. sorry, it's pretty hard not to take offense to that - but I get it, it's your opinion.

I respect those of who you rescue. I've always been an advocate for rescue, but I don't think I should feel like a lesser member because I also support ethical breeding and own a dog that I bought from a reputable breeder.

I'm sorry you feel that I jump on you every time you state your opinion - it certainly isn't the case I simply state my opinion and call a spade a spade when needed.
  #45  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
I guess I look at it as: If you are adding to the dog/cat population, you are part of the dog/cat overpopulation. If you want to be part of the solution, then helping those who want a quality dog/cat by directing them to rescues/shelters and help find a quality dog/cat.

For the love of dogs, please help find homes for those who are currently living, rather than producing more.
I totally understand what you're saying L4H, and personally, I completely agree with you. All I'm saying is not everyone does, and we all have our own opinions. I don't condemn Goldfields or erykah1310. They just have a different mindset than we do, but I don't think that warrants all the arguements and hurt feelings. If that's what they want to discuss, then discuss away, IMO. If i don't want to be part of it, I won't. No harm, no foul. At least they are responsible in what they are doing. But again, I do agree with you regarding not adding to the population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
Already know that Rgeurts. No education is required to pinpoint the source of why so many breeds are butchered by bybs and millers. I can assure you this is understood.
Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I hardly think I personally said that all breeders are horrific..I have said the contrary.
You are wrong about one thing. Once all testing is done, and a litter is sprung..and assuming all are ok., there is no further requirement to commence testing again unless you are adding a new breeding dog. I realize that the money made is put back into the breeding stock to perhaps find other dogs to fit the bill to continue to breed..this is by choice and not requirement. In the end, money is made somewhere along the line. It is not a lose lose situation.
BenMax, I have a lot of respect for what you do. Not many people would give the way you do. But there is no need for you to be defensive to my comment. I didn't mention anyone in particular and I certainly did not say that you personally think all breeders are horrific. In fact, I don't think I said anything even remotely similar anywhere in my post.

You said I am wrong about one thing, that it isn't lose lose. I will have to say you are wrong in making such a general statement. A lot of breeders do make money. But responsible breeders often come up short and I'll give you an example of why:

A friend of mine had a litter. One of the pups had some medical issues. She could have easily just sold the pup and not had a care about it once it left her possession. But again, this is the difference between a responsible breeder and a bad breeder. She had the pup cared for and taken care of medically. It cost her more than she made on the litter. A bad breeder would have sold it "as is" or put it down, but she didn't. She took a loss on the litter and would again if that same situation arose. No matter how careful you are or how much testing you have done, things can (and do) happen. That is what I was referring to.
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  #46  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
You're certainly allowed to have your opinion - I don't think I said 'Love4himies, you aren't allowed an opinion' (if we're going to play that game..) I think sometimes when opinions are posted, you have to remember you may in fact be inadvertently driving members away and not making them feel welcome or comfortable to participate in discussions. That's all. Maybe people don't care about that, but I still find it sad that we have to be so divided. Have your opinion - but suggesting people who believe in reputable breeding find another forum.. sorry, it's pretty hard not to take offense to that - but I get it, it's your opinion.

I respect those of who you rescue. I've always been an advocate for rescue, but I don't think I should feel like a lesser member because I also support ethical breeding and own a dog that I bought from a reputable breeder. I think you need to look deeper into yourself than my posts or other "against breeding" members to find out why you would feel like a "lesser member" if you support ethical breeding. There are quite a few members on here who support ethical breeding and I don't think they feel like a "lesser member"

I'm sorry you feel that I jump on you every time you state your opinion - it certainly isn't the case I simply state my opinion and call a spade a spade when needed.
If you are truly sorry, then let me have my opinion and leave me alone .
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Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

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Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

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  #47  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
I think you need to look deeper into yourself than my posts or other "against breeding" members to find out why you would feel like a "lesser member" if you support ethical breeding. There are quite a few members on here who support ethical breeding and I don't think they feel like a "lesser member"

If you are truly sorry, then let me have my opinion and leave me alone .
I certainly don't feel like a lesser member. I am still surprised though, even after being here so long, by how judgemental some perfect people can be. I would have thought that all this anger would be much better directed against byb's and puppy mills. That is your problem after all. (Oh, of course, none of those would show their faces here.)
Love4Himies, why don't you have , oh, 6 rescue dogs at least? Is that what you'd want me to have, regardless that I have 8 of my own retired show dogs(or those that weren't good enough to show)(plus 19 sheep, 2 ponies, 3 cats and a cockatoo) to feed? I know our financial position, you do NOT, and I won't lower the standard of care for my oldies or other animals in order to rescue and enable an irresponsible breeder or owner just to fill a gap in a pound here. My obligation is to my own animals. If I didn't feel that way, let's face it, I'd get canned for being a bad owner. What I have failed to mention, because my decisions really are my own business, is that our next cattle dog could very well be a rescue seeing I am not showing, although, golly, a lot that has been said really puts me off rescue people. My friend who bred my red Ch's is thinking along the same lines. She only has one left now, aged 14 1/2. I just hope that if we do this we don't start feeling perfect, I couldn't sleep at night if that happened. I have a bit more genuine love for my fellow human.
  #48  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 10:19 PM
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Members should only post to threads if they can remain civil and respect that other members have the right to their own opinions. There are some very thought-provoking posts in this thread--it's a shame to have to keep closing threads because of incivility.

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