Pit Bull question

[Daisy's Owner]

Originally Posted by Mr Kormos

We used to, as kids, naively play tug-of-war with our pet dogs, but then you get it into the shaking, so it learns how to shake the hell out of an item, and that revives whatever level of instinctiveness there is in how to kill a rabbit or whatever.

This is a quote from the BSL hearings from yesterday. I have never heard this before. Please tell me this is NOT true.

Daisy has a stuffed cat, that of course is no longer stuffed, but she shakes the ever livin' crap right out of it.

[sammiec]

This is generally related to dogs! My dad's toy breed mini poodle does the same thing... it's not just a pit bull thing!

My pit bull has a rope toy that she will shake the heck out of constantly, and fiercly - doesn't mean that I think she will do it to the cat... (they are watched when together...

Many dogs would instinctivly shake an animal they they caught - rabbit, cat, etc... IMHO.. doesn't mean the WILL.

[pitbulliest]

I don't think that's true..my dog does it all the time...with her toys..and at the same time, she absolutely adores cats..will lick and snuggle the living junk out of any cat you give her...if shaking toys brought back her instinctive "killing" behavior, she would have torn apart my boyfriend's cats a long long time ago...I don't see it coming any time soon though.

Wooo..what a dangerously killer dog I have huh?

[lucyvanpelt]

i have a little schnauzer-mix puppy who is almost four months old. he'll probably never reach 15 pounds but sometimes he'll take one of his toys...either poor stuffed kitty (who's about his size) or squeaky froggy...and shake the thing like crazy. he's not being aggressive or angry, he's just playing. in reality, a real cat would make him turn and run the other way.
so should i be worried he may one day attack...um, no

[Lucky Rescue]

My pit bull sometimes shakes her rope toy so hard she hits herself in the head with it, then looks confused. She also promptly rips up all her stuffies to get the squeaker out of them.

ALL dogs, who are predators, do this shaking. If you've ever seen a dog kill a groundhog you'll see that is how they do it - shake them so hard they break their backs. But every dog I've known can tell the difference between a groundhog and a human being. Mine sure can and she is also sweet and gentle with my cats and with all small animals that she meets.

[twodogsandacat]

One trainer advised us to not play these games with the dogs. Another trainer said to do it as long as we always win. I know fly ball dogs that get a tug after doing their job well.

I guess if they let go when they are told to and it's all in fun it may be good situational training that the dog can be called off of a high drive situation.

Still you need to decide if your dog would suddenly want to play that game with say a child's sweater that is extra long in the sleeves and flapping in the wind. Maybe I'm neurotic. I prefer to no longer play this game with my dogs. Maybe I'm wrong.

If they want to play the game by themselves that's fine. It's their head. Although once we had a hard toy on a rope. In the middle of a shake session the knot broke and we were left with a hole in the wall - a foot from my head.
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[Loki]

Originally Posted by twodogsandacat

Another trainer said to do it as long as we always win.

I heard the same thing. They said it was a dominance thing.
Not just pittys, but all breeds.

I think the idea is: If the dog interprets the tugging as a challenge, it may eventually decide that it is higher on the pecking order than you are ( if you let the dog win) , kinda thing.

[LL1]

You're right,for all breeds,and it's also used in the reverse way when you want to build confidence,you let them win.

Originally Posted by Loki

I heard the same thing. They said it was a dominance thing.

[twodogsandacat]

Originally Posted by LL1

You're right,and it's also used in the reverse way when you want to build confidence,you let them win.

Yes I have heard that too, building up confidence by letting them win - I imagine there are valid reasons as there are valid reasons for the authorities to train attack dogs. Also the point that it isn't just pitties is also valid. However, I have seen the shaking used in real life survival by my normally docile Pointer.

My English Pointer was a stray found wandering in the rural area around here. He wasn't feral, is extremely docile and human friendly but somehow he had survived. He is a hunter, he has caught fish while swimming and (and this is the reason he remains leashed in areas where there may be wildlife now) while on a ten foot rope along the river's edge stuck his head in a hole and in two seconds (before I could respond) had pulled out a Musk Rat and shook it to death. Extremely violent, bloody and effective.

He had no idea he had done wrong until he looked at me. Even Dalton gave him a dirty look as he sniffed the now dead animal and then looked up at Google. I honestly felt (believe) that both of us were disgusted with him.

He doesn't bother cats or small dogs and has no interest in tug toys - but he knew exactly what to do to a rat, I guess rabbits and guinea pigs may fall into the same catagory - he has yet to meet a Yorkie. Some people I have told this to have said that's just nature and Musk Rat are vermin I don't agree. Maybe in my back yard they are but in the wild? I buried that Musk Rat and I felt awful.

Google probably learned this in the wild. Judging by the scars on him he may have learned the hard way (or they may be from beatings). My other dog is much larger and liked tug games but this is the day tug games stopped in my house. When he starts he is told to stop it. I never want to see another animal shook like that.

Just an opinion, I'm not saying that playing this game is creating killers but this is my objection to this game.
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[LL1]

I have seen the shaking as well,it's instinct.Not pleasant,and I too have had to bury wild critters who unfortunately came into my yard.Using the tug to build confidence is not attack training.

[twodogsandacat]

Originally Posted by LL1

I have seen the shaking as well,it's instinct.Not pleasant,and I too have had to bury wild critters who unfortunately came into my yard.Using the tug to build confidence is not attack training.

Improperly worded then if I suggestted that may be the only reason to build confidence. I am not a trainer but that is one of the examples where I have seen the word used.

My own personal preference would be that neither of my dogs ever believe they can beat a human - at anything. I want them to be comfortable around humans but not too confident. I believe however you should teach your kids that they can beat the world.

Once again - I'm not a trainer and my knowledge of such things fits in a thimble.
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