considering e-collar... opinions needed please

[technodoll]

as a last resort, we are considering buying an e-collar for our incredibly stubborn dog... he is a 110 lbs male akita, very smart but also very unwilling to heel on the leash no matter what. training only works while with the trainer, when with us he will not obey. outside holds way too many interesting smells and stimuli for him.

we tried a halti, he learned to pull with his head at a 45 degree angle. we tried halter-type leashes, he will yank us off our feet and get sores under his elbows. pinch collars have ripped the fur out of his neck, chokers make him pass out as he cuts the blood supply to his head from pulling. we are at our wit's end. he sees another dog or any distraction and will pull so hard, he faints! we both have shoulder and neck injuries! and now a few days ago, his once-beautiful-thick neck fur has been rubbed raw in two places from pulling and his skin is red, sore, and starting to bleed. it is breaking our hearts, we want the pulling to stop and for him to heel properly. and yes he knows how to heel, perfectly, but chooses NOT to. he is otherwise an angel, very well-behaved and totally the beta in the house.

so, him being so smart yet so stubborn, we thought that using an e-collar would be a good, humane solution to teach him what is acceptable behavior, and what is not. either this, or he will bleed from his sore, furless neck and not be walked anymore. does anyone here have any input, good or bad, any experiences on this? please help!

[Prin]

E collar? Umm.. Like the ones for not licking at wounds and incisions? Or E as in electric?

Have you tried the newtrix one yet? If not, bring your doggy to any store that sells them and ask to try it out. If the store has any customer service at all, they'll show you how to use it and let you test it for a bit. I'm telling you, this one is different.

http://newtrix.ca/docs/ourproducts.php

No pulling angle will be a good angle. Boo lunges still when he sees squirrels, bunnies and cats but with this sucker on, he doesn't even move. It's a principle like grabbing the neck fur on a cat- you know, the instinct thing. This is supposed to mimic how the mother doggy corrects the pups (right behind the head). Some dogs still pull on it though- which is why I say try it out before buying and make sure you have it fit properly and put on properly..

[Puppyluv]

Do you mean these babies: http://www.ecollarstore.com/professional-trainers.html ?
My parents used one on our dal years ago, but it never really worked. Then again, she had an entirely different personality from Dakotah... she wasn't the brightest lightbulb out there (But bless her heart). I think it would be worth a try though.
I agree with Prin on the Newtrix. Layla has one, and though she's not much of a puller anyways, this eliminates all of it, even when a squirrel is near by (otherwise unheard of!!)
I hope his neck feels better soon though.

[kaytris]

which harnesses did you try? And what training methods did the trainer have success with?

The problems with e-collars are

a) that your timing must be impeccable - you have to push the button the INSTANT the leash goes tight - wait too long, and you may correct for a loose leash

b) what you want him to learn (tight leash=shock) may NOT be what he does end up learning.. for example, my trainer worked with a border collie that chased the family cat - owners got impatient and went to electronics. Dog went after cat, owner pressed button, child laughed - and dog made association "children's laughter=pain" . It started nipping at the child every time she laughed, and if I remember rightly, dog was either rehomed or euthanized.

A couple of really good articles on teaching loose leash walking
http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...02/pulling.htm
http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti.../advicellw.htm
http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/leash.txt

[BMDLuver]

It's just a suggestion, not a criticism.. but don't you think that perhaps if he was neutered he would become more focused on you and not every smell etc around him?

[kaytris]

Oh, he's intact? Yes, neutering him will more than likely refocus him on you, rather than "FIND THE GIRL FIND THE GIRL". I neutered my lab at 13 months, and within 2 months, it was like night and day - from completely distracted to a velcro boy who loved to please me

[Prin]

I agree... I've heard (not sure if it's true) that some scent dogs aren't neutered because somehow they smell more clearly... (and if you neuter, no more testicular cancer! )

[technodoll]

girls or no girls around, he ALWAYS pulls. out in the middle of a huge green field where no dogs go, he will pull and sound like he has a bad case of asthma at the end of any walk, when we are near to home and he is tired out, of course he does not pull anymore, scents or not. and since we are not getting him neutered for another few years, we are looking for a humane yet effective solution. Prin do you know which stores in Montreal sell the newtrix yet? i'll try everything before going the "shock" method, which really disgusts me.
funny thing, hubby taps dakotah's head with the nylon leash handle when he pulls and he falls into step instantly, cuz he haaates that. we just have to show him the whirring leash and he walks well. but try doing that downtown or in the woods or anywhere for longer than 15 minutes! it's just so exhausting, specially alone walking two dogs. that's 180 lbs of dog walking ME at 120 and god forbid we cross a cat... and they're everywhere... i've lost the battle too many times.

[Prin]

Quite a few have them now... Not sure which ones downtown, but I know there's a place on Monkland and Woofer's on sources has them too.

[technodoll]

i'll drive to monkland do you know the name of the store? i'll call ahead & make sure they have his size so we can try it on... looked at the collar and it seems promising. that, coupled with rigorous training, will hopefully work?

[Puppyluv]

NATURALANIMAL & PAWTISSERIE at 4932B Sherbrooke St W (right across from where I work) sells them.

[Prin]

I sent you a pm... Don't use it like a choker though... It should tighten on its own and get uncomfortable. No yanking.

[SnowDancer]

Our Eskie is also a puller but then he weighs only 25 lbs. - but then he has a lot of power. We have a NewTrix which works well for him when he gets his weekly walk at socialization but with me he thinks he is being murdered so he started to do opposite - would get behind me so I was the one doing the pulling. We started him on specific issues training with a private trainer who came to the house - NO TREATS! - she uses the Barbara Woodhouse method - so choke chain - but husband kept putting it on as a Q rather than a P - I checked each time by applying first to my wrist. After my husband scared me 3 times, I bought the Martingale - the "Ultimate" model made by Canine Equipment - has a good amount of fabric and is "almost" idiot proof - you can't put it on incorrectly but Not so Dear Husband, can hook up lead to wrong hook. Can't win. He doesn't hate the Martingale - and I carry the choke chain on my wrist as a reminder. Correction isn't as good with the Martingale but I can live with that. We have just been practicing our Downs again with the Martingale - If I get the metal part at about 8:00 and tug ever so gently he will do his down. If I am holding any form of food - his, ours, etc. he is on his belly in a second - so knows the word. But he is walking a whole lot better and I know I am not hurting his neck. He favourite word is "Place" - the Place is his Deluxe Double Donut bed (right - he sleeps with us) but he obeys that command as I drop the leash and settles right in - "escape" from the Mommy trainer. Eskies are very smart and stubborn as well - so makes them difficult to train. When he gets into the Double Donut he is stubborn by laying semi-flat but resting his elbow on the "arm" of the sofa like bed. The trainer feels he should be completely flat - but heck, can he help it if "his" sofa has an arm - good enough for me! I am just so grateful he hasn't chewed the $$$ bed - it might be because his groomer, where he goes every Thursday to socialize has a couple on the floor and he might have somehow picked up that chewing these beds is a definite no-no. But it is great - comes completely apart - insides and out can be washed. Groomer has had hers for 8 years. Can't tell you with other dogs how many $50 beds we bought that were shortly toast. I did ask the trainer about the e-collar as someone 2 blocks over was critical when she saw me with choke chain - right as if I was really using it properly - but told me the perfect thing was an electric shock - especially for barking. Sure Eskies are barkers, but my guy sleeps all night, is not tied in yard to bark at everyone, nor does he sit on couch barking at everyone who goes by. She feels e-collar as last resort - but for pulling problems you could be shocking every 2 seconds. A couple of my guy's friends have them, but they are used only for barking when in their own yards. Maybe give the NewTrix a try - my Eskie is very sensitive to his own pain - sometimes will yelp first just to remind you. His was properly fitted - we are one stop shoppers - his boots were properly fitted as well but he won't wear them, little devil. We won't be moving on to a rolled collar next because he has 3 of Canine Equipment's Safety Harnesses - all in good shape and they are great for anti-pulling - and he can't escape from them. Big problem though with the metal on the Martingale and choke is the staining of his very pristine white fur - "ring around the collar". The groomer has whitening products but this is almost impossible to get out. His tags hang from his harness and don't touch his fur so we didn't have this problem before and we got them in finish that doesn't stain. Good thing he loves the mud - looks dingy a lot of the time anyway. Hope you solve your problem.

[technodoll]

NATURALANIMAL & PAWTISSERIE at 4932B Sherbrooke St W (right across from where I work) sells them.

ah that's good news! i'll go Tuesday when we're back in town, thanks sooo much! crossing fingers....

[phoenix]

Sorry I'm late to add to the post, but I have to COMPLETELY agree with trying the newtrix... my Sam is 85 lbs and the strongest dog for his size I've ever seen. He doesn't even make the leash taut with the newtrix. We had it readjusted the other week at Slobberfest to make it more comfortable for him. Choke collars, haltis etc did not work with him either.
Good luck!

[BoxerRescueMTL]

This is my favourite no pulling aid. http://www.softouchconcepts.com/ It's the only one that worked for us.

[jessi76]

I use the Black Dog Head Harness. it stops the pulling, and doesn't ride up into the eyes. but I only use it when necessary - I try not to rely on it.

I think at this point, you should maybe take (or re-take) some OB classes and train how to walk properly on a regular flat collar & leash.

Tucker used to walk perfectly w/ my trainer, and be a ballistic pulling idiot on the leash for me. my shoulder hurt. my neck hurt. my hands hurt. and I was to the point where I didn't WANT to walk him. I used the Black Dog head harness to regain control - it didn't take long at all. Once Tucker realized I'm the LEADER, I started going back to the flat collar.

I think training will help the most, but as another option for a training tool:

http://www.blackdog.net.au/halters.php

I use the Training Halter (2nd one on page) but the first is designed to go from head harness to regular collar.

[technodoll]

i'm really glad to see so many other options out there that WORK for stubborn pullers... really don't want to use a shock collar. so tomorrow we'll go try the newtrix and see if that works, only hiccup is hubby not wanting his boy wearing anything that looks like a muzzle, i said i don't care what other people think, what's important is stopping this behavior and finally enjoying our walks with him!

[LM1313]

Is there something in particular the trainer does to make him listen? The fact that he at least walks nicely for someone is a good start.

[technodoll]

Is there something in particular the trainer does to make him listen? The fact that he at least walks nicely for someone is a good start.

that's because all the training happened inside... and he loves to please other people and be on his best behavior to impress them also he behaves well inside (heeling) for 30 mins to an hour, after that his brain takes a vacation and he just forgets we're at the other end of the leash... put that all outside and it's just h8ll if we constantly speak to him, look at him and remind him the leash is there by waving it in front of his head, he will heel. try doing that when walking downtown with two dogs and trying to talk to other people, LOL! anyways, we'll continue looking for the perfect training tool for Mister Bonehead and work on our parenting skills as well. will keep you guys posted, for sure!

[kaytris]

I think you need to back up here .. you have a slight foundation (inside, with a trainer. So you need to practice and build on that foundation - start with practice inside the house (see those links I posted for tips on how to start). Then move to the back yard. Then the front yard. Idea is to begin with no- or minimal distractions, slowly increasing it. You can't expect him to jump from kindergarten to PhD level immediately.

I would walk him alone, at least for the training sessions (which only have to be 5 - 10 minutes at this time. If that isn't possible, have hubby walk the other dog while you work with him.

Best of luck - and remember, whichever harness or halter you end up using, is a management tool - it won't train him to walk nicely on a flat collar, which I hope will be your goal.

[technodoll]

I think you need to back up here .. you have a slight foundation (inside, with a trainer. So you need to practice and build on that foundation - start with practice inside the house (see those links I posted for tips on how to start). Then move to the back yard. Then the front yard. Idea is to begin with no- or minimal distractions, slowly increasing it. You can't expect him to jump from kindergarten to PhD level immediately.

i would, but... tiny appartment, big dog, no front or back yards, LOL! ah, life in crowded montreal... but yes, the training would be one-on-one with him, short sessions to start with, the ultimate goal being to walk him with his flat gorgeous leather collars that hang useless in our house (grumble grumble). hubby is on board now with the training.... that was the biggest hurdle!

[OntarioGreys]

take a look at these links about shock collars

http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_re...pg655-300.html

http://members.aol.com/ukaim/frame.htm?rufus.htm

this link includes report
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/RUFUS.HTM


http://experts.about.com/q/Ask-Veter...e-Necrosis.htm

http://www.hollysden.com/shock-say_no.htm

http://www.dogsdeservebetter.org/sophie.html

http://www.mainetoday.com/pets/dogslife/003323.html


One of the other risks not mentioned in the articles is redirected aggression, if you have two dogs out together and one feels the stab of the shock it many attribute that pain to the other dog and turn on them as a result

[technodoll]

thanks for the links OG! we'll figure it out without a shock collar... i just can't wrap my mind around it.

[buffytwin]

[QUOTE=Prin]Have you tried the newtrix one yet? If not, bring your doggy to any store that sells them and ask to try it out. If the store has any customer service at all, they'll show you how to use it and let you test it for a bit. I'm telling you, this one is different.

http://newtrix.ca/docs/ourproducts.php


I agree, my boxer pulled like crazy, I tried everything from Harnests to a Gentle Leader, but all that did was make him turn his head everytime I pulled back. I just got thes Newtrix and it works amazing!!! I can't begin to tell you the difference its made. Our walks are now stress free, and when he see's another dog or anything that catches his eye he can't pull if he tried. I've also found that it seems he's stopped even trying to pull, I totally recommend it! Well worth the $40 bucks I paid for it! Good luck!

Oh and I was somewhat the same about how it appears to look like a muzzle, its not that I care what people think, I just don't want people thinking he's vicious, soooooooo many people come up to me and say awwwwww poor thing, has to wear that around his face, like I'm a bad mom, that drives me nuts! But you know what, I don't care, with the Newtrix we both enjoy our walk 10 times more, forget about other people. Once you've walked him a hundred times in your neighborhood they'll get to you know you anyway and know your dog is loving and not vicious... I have to explain everytime, that if he doesn't wear it he walks me, lol...

[mummummum]

There was something wrong with their website when I visited today (uhhh I guess that's yesterday now) and I am having difficulty picturing how this fits differently from a Gentle Leader and where it's control points are distinct from a Halti/ Gentle Leader etc. - does anyone have pix with it on your dog?

I am not happy with Ceili and her collar (one of these days I'll post a picture of her doing her "NO, I'm NOT going and you CAN'T make me. You're NOT the boss of me" faces). And I don't want to necessarily go back to the Gentle Leader since SHE hated it.

for the hijack Technodoll - but enquiring minds gotta know!

[Prin]

This is the pic from their website. The thicker part (black and red in the pic) goes around the muzzle with the big ring under the chin and the rest (all red part) goes behind the ears and clips onto the leash. The difference is, if they pull, it tightens the part that goes from ear to ear behind the ears. Like where the red in the pic meets the black (the two rings in the middle), the red part tightens when pulled. See how one red strap goes from one ring to the other? That is what tightens behind the head. Does that make sense?

I'd show you a pic, but an all black newtrix on an all black doggy doesn't show one bit.
(I've edited this so many times to try to make more sense, but I just can't. )

[buffytwin]

Im at work right now, but if no one has posted a picture when I get home I'll take one of Rex and show you, I know that the picture from the site is hard to imagine, although if you go on the site it does show it on a dog. But the big difference is like Prin said, i pulls from the back of his head, rather then his chin, where a Gentle Leader would pull. When you pull back using a Gentle Leader all it does is turn his head back, and I read articles that its not good in the long run as it can cause problems, can't remember what exactly but something to do with the neck and back muscles. But when you pull the Newtrix it pulls the back of his head, and it tightens the muzzle piece, it only does that when the dog pulls. I find after 1 week of wearing it, Rex doesn't even attempt to pull anymore, unless he see's another dog, but in general he just walks beside me now. If you read the website I beleive it does explain all that, probably better then me Good luck!

[we3beagles]

Does anyone else's dog hate the Newtrix lead. I tried all the recommendations on the package and the behaviour expert gave me some more, but Soozie still grabs it off her face every chance she gets. She gets so frustrated when it won't come off that she goes a little crazy and sometimes scratches herself. I totally agree it works though. I no longer have to put my arms back in their sockets when I get back from a walk. She still pulls a little though as she is very stubborn, but only with this one thing. Everything else she has been totally easy to train. Perhaps her prey drive is just too strong. The foundation I rescued her from is for ex hunting dogs. I think she has hunted in the past and just goes after everything that moves. Any suggestions on what else to try? How long will she have to wear the Newtrix lead before she gets it do you think. She has been wearing it every walk for 2 months now and still doesn't get that she can't pull.

[jessi76]

Originally Posted by we3beagles

I think she has hunted in the past and just goes after everything that moves. Any suggestions on what else to try? How long will she have to wear the Newtrix lead before she gets it do you think. She has been wearing it every walk for 2 months now and still doesn't get that she can't pull.

she won't just "get it", she needs to be taught.

look up Tenderfoot's "be a post" method. Literally BE A POST when your dog pulls. don't move. the dog needs to learn pulling will NOT get her ahead.

You can also try to change direction. When walking, dog pulls, turn & go the other way. or start going backwards. If my dog pulls, we take steps BACK, not ahead. (I walked around in circles for a while)

keep the dog at your side - so it learns not to walk in front of you, or pull you down the street. When the dog starts to get ahead, walk INTO the dog, making a tight circle into her. this literally cuts off the dog's path, and forces the dog to watch you - stay with you, and follow your lead.

My dog is also a hound, and would choose to just sniff everything, going off to this side, that side, in front, behind me... on the advice of my trainer, I taught "heel" in a fenced area with NO leash. I just walked around the fenced area at a normal pace, and EVERY time the dog was walking nicely by my side, he got rewarded. then I re-introduced the leash.

I agree the harnesses are a great tool, and can be a lifesaver when out in a very distracting place, but really they are just a tool, and proper leash manners still need to be taught.