Stop Pit Bull Ban in Ontario

[LavenderRott]

Detroit, Michigan has a pit bull ban and I know that every pit bull that is taken into the Detroit Humane Society it pts with no temperment tests or anything else. How do I know? Watch "Animal Cops-Detroit" on Animal Planet sometime.

Quite frankly, the only thing that will reduce the number of attacks is to hold the owners of dogs accountable. I am sure that Windsor (and just about every other city out there) has some type of leash law. Enforce it and make the fines hurt. If your dog attacks another dog or a person, then you should have to appear before a judge. All the relevant information should be looked at and a judgement made on whether or not the dog is dangerous and the owner should be fined accordingly. Having said this, let me explain a bit further. If you are the type of owner who doesn't vet, train or socialize your dog and it jumps a fence and kills the neighbors cat, then you need to pay a HEFTY fine and not be allowed to own another dog. If you do vet, train, and socialize your dog, but leave it out in your fenced back yard for an hour after work unattended, well this may be a slightly different story. What if, for that hour, there is some little juvenile delinquent that takes great pleasure in teasing your dog? What if this teasing goes on for months while you are in the house, cooking dinner, helping your kids with homework whatever? What if that dog finally has enough and goes over your fence? Does that make the dog dangerous? Not necessarily.

Does that make sense?

Do I think that the Windsor model has any value? I am not sure what you are asking? Do I think that Windsor made the right decision on how to address the problem of dog bites. NO. I do think that someone in Windsor needs to figure out the best way to track dog bite information between now and the end of October so that when the next city wants to implement a breed ban and wants to use the "success" of Windsor, they have accurate and complete numbers.

[Akeeter]

These breed bans are too recent to produce any real results. The only stats that will change over the next 10+ years are those that directly relate to Pit Bulls. (There will be less Pit Bull's on record for everything -Good & Bad.) If Kit. Wat, London etc. want to look like they did the right thing, it will be in their interests to not keep or publish any bite stats, except those that make them look Good. (Ie "There are less PB bites." But what if the general dog bite stats don't change, as has been the case in the U.S. where some BSL has been in place from the 1980's)

If the Att. Gen's intentions are so pure as to not destroy any existing dogs, why did Toronto Animal Services pull all their Pit Bulls out of the adoption room? (They must have gotten a heads up from Somebody about Something, or they wouldn't have done it.) The Mayor of Toronto's Office? Maybe, but at that time, the mayor's office had said Nothing (public) about about a PB ban.

Nobody has said anything about the legal status of PB & PBx's now in OSPCA & other local shelters & rescues. These dog exist, so they should be exempted from pts (or so says M. Bryant) by are they 'owned' in the legal sense?

Anybody who is kidding themselves that no dogs, puppies will die, except the 'biters' on account of this legislation is flat out wrong.

And how did 'Frustrated' come by the 1% number for percentage PB's in the populatation of dogs, in Ontario/Toronto/ the GTA??? Nobody knows how many unlicensed dogs there are anywhere at anytime. Many of the dogs that show up in shelter have no tags, or microchipping. And nobody is keeping stats by breed on the ones that are identifyable. not the municality, & not the Chip data bases.

[mastifflover]

Well I have been reading this thread for a while and other than a few vaild posts there is a lot of useless drivel and name calling. What do you think this will accomplish for the breed and responsible owners? Nothing but it makes certain people feel like they know what they are talking about. You guys keep posting links and talking about breed restrictions in Italy. Do you really think our government cares about what they are doing in Italy or anywhere else. This AG has his mind set on a BSL and only is interested in that side of the story. So if you think you by ranting and raving and not having your facts straight will get anything accomplished you are sadly mistaken. This was an important thread and you have turned it into a playground for childrens name calling and bullying. Grow up and if at all possible you could debate this like adults not a bunch of rude morons or start your own link and anybody with something of value to say will not need to go there. Personally I feel this ban is only going to hurt the responsible owners and not do anything to the morons who have abused and made these dogs vicious. If you ban them they will just move on to more aggressive and larger breeds. But since the government really is not concerned about anything but making themselves look good, it really is like smashing your head against a brick wall. It will probably be as sucessful as the gun ban because as you know all criminals register their guns.

[sammiec]

Originally Posted by mastifflover

But since the government really is not concerned about anything but making themselves look good, it really is like smashing your head against a brick wall. It will probably be as sucessful as the gun ban because as you know all criminals register their guns.

I love it. It's so true. The government tries to make us believe that they care by asking for our input "Please email us -we care." then they respond with a huge mass mailer. Gimme a break. No one reads what we have to say. It's negative yes, but sometimes the truth hurts. These people will sit around a desk and talk about their weekend, the kids, the weather and then say "Oh, yeah.. those pit bulls, whatcha wanna do about that?" and then the other person will sit back in his chair, put his feet on the table and say, "I hate 'em, lets just get rid of them, then people will shut up. They'll get over it." DONE!! That's it.
Letter upon letters will not change that. And sitting here posting loads of links, stats, and comments will not change it either. It's something that we will have to face, it's envitiable, just a matter of time for them to implement it that's all.

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by sammiec

I love it. It's so true. The government tries to make us believe that they care by asking for our input "Please email us -we care." then they respond with a huge mass mailer. Gimme a break. No one reads what we have to say. It's negative yes, but sometimes the truth hurts. These people will sit around a desk and talk about their weekend, the kids, the weather and then say "Oh, yeah.. those pit bulls, whatcha wanna do about that?" and then the other person will sit back in his chair, put his feet on the table and say, "I hate 'em, lets just get rid of them, then people will shut up. They'll get over it." DONE!! That's it.
Letter upon letters will not change that. And sitting here posting loads of links, stats, and comments will not change it either. It's something that we will have to face, it's envitiable, just a matter of time for them to implement it that's all.

Well, posting stats, links and comments may not stop what happened in Windsor last night but, since this is a public forum, if there is a chance that any statistic, link or comment I make may inform someone of the truth behind BSL, then I will continue to post them.

The people who make the laws are accountable to the people who put them in office. If you don't like the way things are going then you have a couple of options. You can try to educate as many people as you can so that they can vote with their minds and not depend on media hysteria for information. Or you can sit on your hands, do nothing and think that everything is inevitable.

Breed bans are NOT inevitable. Not if I have a breathe left in my body. I will continue to research and educate until I am unable to do it anymore. If a breed ban is implemented in my community then I will fight tooth and nail to see it overturned. I will be da*&ed if I am going to sit by and let it happen without doing something. If this isn't your thing, so be it. My mom is passionate about greyhound rescue but isn't concerned in the least about BSL. Quite frankly, I don't care what causes she spends her time on. What really gets me is people who think that other people who are fighting for their rights, be it BSL, gun ownership or whatever, are wasting their time.

[sammiec]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

Well, posting stats, links and comments may not stop what happened in Windsor last night but, since this is a public forum, if there is a chance that any statistic, link or comment I make may inform someone of the truth behind BSL, then I will continue to post them.

Fair enough, I see you point, but at the same time people just lash out and complain that the stats are one sided and the thread turns into what it has here. I realize that you're one to take this matter to heart and do what you can to help. I didn't necessarily mean that comment for you LavR, I know what you do and I know that you're feelings are legit. I appreciate your input, but when you have someone like this "frustrated" person, I just feel that your resources are being wasted on someone who appears to be here to stir the pot.

The people who make the laws are accountable to the people who put them in office. If you don't like the way things are going then you have a couple of options. You can try to educate as many people as you can so that they can vote with their minds and not depend on media hysteria for information. Or you can sit on your hands, do nothing and think that everything is inevitable.

I don't think that everything is inevitable, I guess it the fact that I have little to no confindence in politicians. Pretending to really care about what the public thinks, but in the end they will do what they want to do, not what's right.
I completely agree with you re: holding owners responsible for the actions fo their animals. I am willing to be held accountable for something that my dog might do (praying it never comes to that.) And regulating owners, not the dogs... but in the end, what would cost more? Implementing these classes and licenses, having people register with law enforcement when they get a pit bull, fining and charging people for their dogs actions, holding more people in overcrowded jails for their dog kmauling someone...
Or killing the pit bulls that are sitting in the shelters and outright banning the breed. It takes alot less effort and money - IMHO.

Breed bans are NOT inevitable. Not if I have a breathe left in my body. I will continue to research and educate until I am unable to do it anymore. If a breed ban is implemented in my community then I will fight tooth and nail to see it overturned. I will be da*&ed if I am going to sit by and let it happen without doing something. If this isn't your thing, so be it. My mom is passionate about greyhound rescue but isn't concerned in the least about BSL. Quite frankly, I don't care what causes she spends her time on. What really gets me is people who think that other people who are fighting for their rights, be it BSL, gun ownership or whatever, are wasting their time.

Sorry, but I never meant to imply that you were wasting your time. I was really into the whoel BSL prevention and helping out, mailers, flyers, and talking to others to encourage an open mind about pit bulls. It's been really taking a toll on me lately... I am usually a strong person when it comes to things like this; I just feel helpless and discouraged. I can't tell you how many times since the beginning of summer I have faced ignorant people with their stupid comments and such.

Sorry LavR that I offended you.

[LavenderRott]

To be honest, once "frustrated" calmed down, the posts are not that bad and worth the read and response. Once I calmed down. LOL! And quite frankly, I don't mind taking the time to respond. This is a public forum after all. Many people come here to read and don't become members. Maybe one of them will learn something from what I have posted. Maybe it will give them a reason to pause and think about what they have heard from the media and they will decide to look in to what the real facts are.

Some of the stats are one sided. That is because there is no regulating them or the way they are collected. I sure wish I could figure out a way to fix that.

I must admit, I was a bit surprised by your wait and see attitude. Usually you are quite the go-getter. I understand the frustration though. I was supposed to go to Windsor last night but instead I went and bought a dress for my wedding on Friday. From the sounds of things, the council members there already had their minds made up and it would have been a wasted trip. I still feel quilty, though.

[sammiec]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

I must admit, I was a bit surprised by your wait and see attitude. Usually you are quite the go-getter. I understand the frustration though. I was supposed to go to Windsor last night but instead I went and bought a dress for my wedding on Friday. From the sounds of things, the council members there already had their minds made up and it would have been a wasted trip. I still feel quilty, though.

K - hold on.. you're getting married on FRIDAY and just sneak it in like it's so casual!!! YEAH FOR YOU!!! That's exciting!!!

I really didn't mean to beat you down or anything...your feeling about Windsor is kinda how I'm feeling about this one. I just have this feeling that they've already made up their mind and are just humouring us! I have to shake this feeling before it's too late!! Thank you for hanging in there!!

[LavenderRott]

Hmmmm, thought I had mentioned it somewhere. Maybe not. Bought the license yesterday.

I know you didn't mean to make me feel bad or anything. I think this whole media/Ontario thing has really got me down though.

[sammiec]

I never saw it anywhere! Congratulations! (Now that we've REALLY changed the subject!)

Yeah, I think that's why I am so down about the whole thing. You're right, I have kinda given up, I feel defeated. There's just so much negative attention about the whole thing, it's just a real downer.
I just can't picture my poor little girl putting on an ugly hideous muzzle everytime we leave the house. It's actually kinda heart wrenching... I know she'll hate it and think she did something wrong... and people will be even more freightened of her...

[mastifflover]

Hey congratulations finally something on a happy note Good luck and all the best

[chico2]

Lavender you are getting MARRIED Congratulations!!!
Well,not to put a damper on your wedding,but there was yet another "pit-bull" attack today,a man mowing his lawn,needed 100 stiches to close his wounds.I am not sure where it was,I think Toronto.....I wish it was not so for all you people who have wonderful pitties,but I think their fate is sealed
Sammie I am so sorry for your wonderful doggie,but even more so for the hundreds of Pits in shelters,who has no loving owner to speak for them,it's just so sad

[Akeeter]

That's great, all the best to you & your soon to be spouse.

[Spurby]

Someone slandering a once close personal friend of mine on a message board WILL get my response and attention, i am sure many of you would have done the same? Enough said about that issue, since it does not belong here, though Mr. Frustrated felt the need to bring her name into this for no reason other than a personal vendetta.

Toronto City Council is considering passing at the very least a muzzle order against all pit bulls, they have passed this over to the board of health for their imput. Everyone within the GTA is strongly urged to call their local counciler to oppose this, as dogs with NO history of aggression or bites, will be included. This knee jerk reaction will not prevent the majority of bites, which happen in the home, or yard. This will ONLY effect the responsible pit bull owner, while the irresponsible will just choose another breed, or will refuse to muzzle.

I hope everyone who calls can let us know the reaction they got from their counciler? Calls are much better at this point rather than e-mails.

[frustrating]

Originally Posted by Spurby

Someone slandering a once close personal friend of mine on a message board WILL get my response and attention, i am sure many of you would have done the same? Enough said about that issue, since it does not belong here, though Mr. Frustrated felt the need to bring her name into this for no reason other than a personal vendetta.

I will not engage in discussing that person. If you want to know the facts on that old topic, as discovered by me, police and various government agencies.. you'll have to email me.

I had simply used them as and example of person who becomes irrational when you try and have any kind of debate.

Toronto City Council is considering passing at the very least a muzzle order against all pit bulls, they have passed this over to the board of health for their imput. Everyone within the GTA is strongly urged to call their local counciler to oppose this, as dogs with NO history of aggression or bites, will be included. This knee jerk reaction will not prevent the majority of bites, which happen in the home, or yard. This will ONLY effect the responsible pit bull owner, while the irresponsible will just choose another breed, or will refuse to muzzle.

I hope everyone who calls can let us know the reaction they got from their counciler? Calls are much better at this point rather than e-mails.

On the issues (for a change) Knee Jerk is right, politicians have a problem.. they need to react on behalf of public concern (justified or not) and Health departments have a problem, and only politicians can act for them in new territory like this.

So why are we having a debate, why should people in opposite positions have this debate... I mean obviously you have a hate on for me so why should we debat the issue ?

So that when I run into a politican (Gary Goodyear attends a lot of chamber functions), or you do.... that a reasonable solution has been reached.


Instead of me saying... You know what ? I don't know what else to do besides ban breeding and importing. I might say...

This person I was talking to had a much better solution that might please both sides.

It was...

Do this ----

But of course... we still don't have an alternative do we ? And the politicians will act, because they have to act... so you should be trying to find a position you can advocate instead of opposing all action of any type.

They have no choice now, they will have to do something. Pro pit advocates are a minority and minorities often either lose out or compromise.

So what is a good plan of action by the governement ?

[Akeeter]

Heavy fine or even jail time for people who's dogs maul, injure or kill.
Graduated licensing & hopefully education on dominant breeds, before people can own them. Obedience classes for these breeds before 6 months of age.
Manditory S/N -I'd like to see this for all dogs not in a breeding program with a licensed breeder.
Licensing for breeders, with more taken into account than abilty to feed & water their dogs.
Lifelong ban on animal ownership for animal abusers, dog fighters, puppy millers, et all. Fines, jail time..bring it on!
REAL causal investigations in the case of severe bites & fatalities. Was the dog healthy, spayed/neutered, & trained? Was the parent/caregiver negligent in leaving a child unattended with a dog? We have to stop treating dog bites as some great unpreventable mystery. They are very preventable in most cases.
Dog bite prevention programs for All children in elementary schools -Manditory.(statistically, most dog bites happen to children, usually male, in the 3 to 12 age bracket.)

O.K. I think most of these points were covered in other posts previously. So it's not like the anti BSL people are just saying they don't want BSL. We all know their are problems with owners, breeders, individual dogs, & sometimes the general public. (For instance, if you see a dog, don't scream at the top of your lungs, & run away. You might initiate a chase response from the dog. Same advice is given to people who live in bear country. Don't scream, don't run, & don't make eye contact. Just back away, slowly. Simple things like this can prevent dog bites. So is the abilty to tell by a dog's posture & body language if he is friendly or not. We tell kid's about drugs & alcohol, things they hopefully don't see everyday, be we don't want to tell them about how to deal with dogs? Even if their family doesn't own a dog, they probably see several dogs on the way to & from school everyday.)

[Spurby]

Originally Posted by frustrating

I will not engage in discussing that person. If you want to know the facts on that old topic, as discovered by me, police and various government agencies.. you'll have to email me.

I had simply used them as and example of person who becomes irrational when you try and have any kind of debate.?

Keep it up, showing your true colours once again.

So why are we having a debate, why should people in opposite positions have this debate... I mean obviously you have a hate on for me so why should we debat the issue ?

If you read my previous post, i said i didn't want to debate this with you since you have different motives than you claim.

Instead of me saying... You know what ? I don't know what else to do besides ban breeding and importing. I might say...

This person I was talking to had a much better solution that might please both sides.

It was...

Do this ----

Several, if not dozens, of various level of government members know my position, as well as possible solutions/alternatives, as well as the people that know me. I have posted this on other forums as well, i simply do not always have the time to post everything i write on this issue, to every board i visit.

To put it simply(for others here who want to know), ask your member of government to enforce the by-laws already in place concerning leash laws, fines to the irresponsible owners(how about bigger fines?)and breeding licences. Get tough on the real problem out there, the irresponsible owners/breeders. If you fail to believe that can be enforced, then i have to wonder how they will enforce this BSL, and with what added funds they will do it with. Getting tough on the real issues WILL help prevent more bites(from ALL breeds) and irresponsible owners, it has worked very well in Calgary.

[Akeeter]

about what goverments could do, not just continuing an argument..

[frustrating]

[QUOTE=Spurby]Keep it up, showing your true colours once again.


If you read my previous post, i said i didn't want to debate this with you since you have different motives than you claim.
[/quote
Showing my true colors ? By trying to get you to not have a discussion about your obsessions that everyones out to get you,... where people are trying to have a discussion on the issues.. it is my fault for slipping in that little bracketed comment... but I can't seem to get past it since you bring it up every time i post ? Once again.. it's not for here. Anyone who wants, even here... can always email or telephone me I don't hide or pretend to be somebody else.

And what motives are you imagining in your paranoid little world ?

Several, if not dozens, of various level of government members know my position, as well as possible solutions/alternatives, as well as the people that know me. I have posted this on other forums as well, i simply do not always have the time to post everything i write on this issue, to every board i visit.

To put it simply(for others here who want to know), ask your member of government to enforce the by-laws already in place concerning leash laws,

fines to the irresponsible owners(how about bigger fines?)and breeding licences. Get tough on the real problem out there, the irresponsible owners/breeders. If you fail to believe that can be enforced, then i have to wonder how they will enforce this BSL, and with what added funds they will do it with. Getting tough on the real issues WILL help prevent more bites(from ALL breeds) and irresponsible owners, it has worked very well in Calgary.

So the next time a child is killed by an aggressive dog do you think the parent is going to say to the politicians

1. Well at least they'll get a bigger fine
or
2. Why didn't you push your legislation through.

and think before you write... this problem of public perception has nothing to do with wether the legislation would have worked or not.

A position of better education doesn't solve the problem for a very long time... and the people who own these dogs as weapons will not bother to get educated. Just like the people with guns who kill somebody and it turns out they have been deported 9 times and the police knew they were back.

If somebody had have bothered with better education years ago, it would have solved some of the problems now.

[sammiec]

Originally Posted by frustrating

A position of better education doesn't solve the problem for a very long time... and the people who own these dogs as weapons will not bother to get educated. Just like the people with guns who kill somebody and it turns out they have been deported 9 times and the police knew they were back.

If somebody had have bothered with better education years ago, it would have solved some of the problems now.

So you're insisting that all pit bulls are put down because of the bad ones? Criminals go to jail for their actions, but ALL pit bulls ahould suffer because some of them have bitten.

Heck, why don't we put ALLhumans in jails because of the criminals.... there's a solution.

[frustrating]

Originally Posted by Akeeter

Heavy fine or even jail time for people who's dogs maul, injure or kill.
Graduated licensing & hopefully education on dominant breeds, before people can own them. Obedience classes for these breeds before 6 months of age.
Manditory S/N -I'd like to see this for all dogs not in a breeding program with a licensed breeder.
Licensing for breeders, with more taken into account than abilty to feed & water their dogs.
Lifelong ban on animal ownership for animal abusers, dog fighters, puppy millers, et all. Fines, jail time..bring it on!
REAL causal investigations in the case of severe bites & fatalities. Was the dog healthy, spayed/neutered, & trained? Was the parent/caregiver negligent in leaving a child unattended with a dog? We have to stop treating dog bites as some great unpreventable mystery. They are very preventable in most cases.
Dog bite prevention programs for All children in elementary schools -Manditory.(statistically, most dog bites happen to children, usually male, in the 3 to 12 age bracket.)

O.K. I think most of these points were covered in other posts previously. So it's not like the anti BSL people are just saying they don't want BSL. We all know their are problems with owners, breeders, individual dogs, & sometimes the general public. (For instance, if you see a dog, don't scream at the top of your lungs, & run away. You might initiate a chase response from the dog. Same advice is given to people who live in bear country. Don't scream, don't run, & don't make eye contact. Just back away, slowly. Simple things like this

can prevent dog bites. So is the abilty to tell by a dog's posture & body language if he is friendly or not. We tell kid's about drugs & alcohol, things they hopefully don't see everyday, be we don't want to tell them about how to deal with dogs? Even if their family doesn't own a dog, they probably see several dogs on the way to & from school everyday.)

Lots of very useful suggestions... but my question is this ?

Bigger fines an penalties and bans on ownership

How many owners have an animal or animals that kill or mame more than once ? Show me an instance of violent crime, abuse or neglect that has been reduced by fines.

[frustrating]

Originally Posted by sammiec

So you're insisting that all pit bulls are put down because of the bad ones? Criminals go to jail for their actions, but ALL pit bulls ahould suffer because some of them have bitten children.

Heck, why don't we put ALLhumans in jails because of the criminals.... there's a solution.

No I'm not talking from a rational point of view.. I'm mainting that politicians have to act... and so we better start seeing this from a political point of view...

Despite what little miss spurby has to say, politicans don't care what she says, especially if it's not going to solve the political problem of now having to provide the public a solution that looks like it will make the streets safer from dangerous dogs SOON.

It's not about whats write or wrong in this debate its about doing something the public feels like it's going to work.

The public around here knows there have been no fatalities since the breed ban in kitchener and if you don't want a breed ban you better come up with and option that they feel is going to work besides that.

[sammiec]

Originally Posted by frustrating

The public around here knows there have been no fatalities since the breed ban in kitchener and if you don't want a breed ban you better come up with and option that they feel is going to work besides that.

I see your point.
The overwhelming population says that these dogs should be banned - no if, ands, or buts...it's affordable for the politicians and gains them popularity points with the majority.
Now, what do we have to offer. Some well behaved dogs, some responsible owners (because we say we are) and a whole heck of a lot of money to improve our animal adoption system, enforcement of irresponsible owners, jail time / space/ guards - shoud they decide to enforce with jail... more law enforcement to track, charge, and file against people that owns dogs that maul.

I would guarantee that Kitchener still has pit bull problems. I bet that they keep that information locked away because they don't want it to get out that they made this law and killed innocent dogs for nothing.
Criminals don't care about the law!! That's why they are criminals! It's only the responsible people with a conscience that suffer from these bans and bylaws!!
How many of the attacks that are reported in the wonderful media involve a dog that lives in the home, is UTD, and trained and socialized? I haven't heard of too many...most of these dogs are not UTD, they spend many hours alone and are not socialized OR like the last attack - they are trained to do it!! That lady is a fool, she should go to jail for manslaughter, or even premeditated attempted murder (is there sucha thing??) she taught those dogs to attack to cause bodily harm! She should pay the consequences, not the dogs!

[lezzpezz]

Sorry to be in the dark on the sidelines here, but for the unseasoned, could you please explain the abbreviations, "UTD" and "IMHO". I get the gist, but am wracking my brains trying to sound it out! Thanks.

[frustrating]

Originally Posted by sammiec

I see your point.
The overwhelming population says that these dogs should be banned - no if, ands, or buts...it's affordable for the politicians and gains them popularity points with the majority.
Now, what do we have to offer. Some well behaved dogs, some responsible owners (because we say we are) and a whole heck of a lot of money to improve our animal adoption system, enforcement of irresponsible owners, jail time / space/ guards - shoud they decide to enforce with jail... more law enforcement to track, charge, and file against people that owns dogs that maul.

I would guarantee that Kitchener still has pit bull problems. I bet that they keep that information locked away because they don't want it to get out that they made this law and killed innocent dogs for nothing.

Criminals don't care about the law!! That's why they are criminals! It's only the responsible people with a conscience that suffer from these bans and bylaws!!
How many of the attacks that are reported in the wonderful media involve a dog that lives in the home, is UTD, and trained and socialized? I haven't heard of too many...most of these dogs are not UTD, they spend many hours alone and are not socialized OR like the last attack - they are trained to do it!! That lady is a fool, she should go to jail for manslaughter, or even premeditated attempted murder (is there sucha thing??)

There is 1st, 2nd and 3rd (divided into negligent manslaughter or gross negligent manslaughter, or plain involuntary) degree manslaughter.... just like murder, but we have disctinctions within those. Because the victum wasn't chosen it's not first degree. It would/should fall under the same category as carrying around a loaded gun and someone bumps into you and it goes off killing them.. .(however that gets procsecuted).

she taught those dogs to attack to cause bodily harm! She should pay the consequences, not the dogs!

The dogs shouldn't have to pay the consequences.. but now that they are trained they are what they are, the loaded gun. Very Sad.

[sammiec]

Originally Posted by lezzerpezzer

Sorry to be in the dark on the sidelines here, but for the unseasoned, could you please explain the abbreviations, "UTD" and "IMHO". I get the gist, but am wracking my brains trying to sound it out! Thanks.

No problem!!

IMHO = In my humble opinion
UTD = up to date (referring to the dogs vaccinations)

[frustrating]

Originally Posted by Dinah

Give it time. The breed was banned, the idiots who train dogs to attack are still around.

I had a corgi once (I got suckered into a puppy mill rescue runt) and talking to other corgi owners at the time... they had found too that they had to teach their dogs not to guard or be cagey in general ... is this true of pits too ? I don't think every pit who ever attacked was trained to or abused.

And i have no doubt those "idiots" you were talking about will get a rotty next time...

[sammiec]

Originally Posted by frustrating

they had found too that they had to teach their dogs not to guard or be cagey in general ... is this true of pits too ?

I think it depends on the dogs demeanor... any dogs can be protective and defensive. My dog has only once barked as someone tried to open the gate to a friends backyard...
My hubby has been working nights this past week, when she hears a noise at the door, she stands up in the bed and waits, doesn't even leave the room to investigate the sounds....she doesn't bark when someonw knocks on the door, but wags her wiggle butt when a strangers enters.

[lezzpezz]

Thank you for the tutorial. I will try to keep up to speed.

[Akeeter]

fatalities & mauling probably had incidents happen before the last one.
The woman who had the 2 PitBull x Akita pups that mauled the paper del. girl were already on a muzzle order for killing a neighbour's dog.

In many reports, the neighbours have called animal control or police about dogs/(owners)that are running loose several times, before the attack happens. Usually nothing happened in the beginning because we don't have the facilities to deal with loose/loose & threatening dogs. (The East Indian man who was attacked in To. a few years ago was a victim of this. The dogs had been at large for days, (according to neighbours) before the attack.)

I think some of these people have bite incidents involving family or friends, & the bites don't get reported in the intersts of keeping peace. There was something like this mentioned with the young girl who was mauled by her Grandmother's Neopolitan mastiff. (Another illegal kennel. This one had a tiger on the premises at one time.) The girl went in to pet a litter of puppies, & the mother dog turned on her. Later the child's mother claimed that the dogs & situation had been mis-represented to her, even though she supported her mother's breeding kennel in the beginning.

There may be some incidents that happen 'out of the blue', but I don't think a lot do. There are signs long before a serious bite or mauling happens. The owners don't take action, get their dog into training, pts, or whatever it takes to stop a worse incident. (This happens with All Breeds, not just Pits & the usual suspects.)