Could Hot Spots Confuse Diagnosis?

[SamIam]

Placing myself at the mercy of those who are entirely against purposeful breeding of dogs...

I have a dog who became ill during late estrus. She had symptoms of pyometra (poor appetite, vomiting, pu/pd, depression) but is not typical of the profile (younger and wrong part of cycle). No fever, CBC confirmed infection, palpation revealed a slightly enlarged uterus. She was considered a very good candidate for antibiotic therapy, but was also booked in tentatively for a spay 2 days later. Her symptoms nearly disappeared by the next appt. so the surgery was cancelled, and she was sent home to continue antibiotics and a hormone injection in a month, as long as she continues to do well.

Then I found hot spots - a rather large area compared to her small size. (By location, above and beside the tail, they would have been caused by the male whose aim was poor.) They cleaned up nicely. She is acting healthy, but acting pregnant (she has been bred before and there is a definite difference between behaviour after a not-bred versus pregnant heat). So I am wondering...

Could the skin infection have caused the elevated WBC, and sick dog symptoms? Could she actually be pregnant with a healthy uterus? Or would pyometra due to hormonal affects and enlargement of the uterus mimic pregnancy? Very little information seems available on the normal canine uterus during the first 3 weeks of pregnancy, or on systemic affects of a skin infection.

Reasons I am asking are:
1) I want to be well prepared before the next vet visit, and
2) I have a waiting list for the litter and want to know what to tell them.

[14+kitties]

Mmmmm, let me pm Dr Lee for you as none of us are vets and can not answer those questions for you dearie.
I'm sure your own vet or your breeding mentor could also help a great deal my dear.

Ok, Dr Lee is pm'd. Hopefully he will be along soon. Sit tight and wait patiently please. He is a very busy man.

[aslan]

As you've stated,,the majority here are against breeding and pro spay/neuter so i'm not sure other than Doctor Lee that any of us could provide the help you need. It would be in the dogs best interest to contact your vet with any concerns you may have.

[SamIam]

Thanks 14+Kitties, I appreciate it. I will look forward to Dr Lee's insight, or of course that of anyone else who might have input.
No, as far as breeder/mentors, this situation is quite unusual, so I'm taking the chance that someone somewhere out there might have gone through something comparable. If I knew a big-time breeder who always had a half-dozen litters around, maybe, but by choice I only know the sort who have the occasional litter and give their dogs and puppies personal attention.

<edited out>

Wasn't starting anything of the sort, Carnac. No interest in fighting, as I specifically said in the deleted portion, but I chose to voice my concern directly, rather than walking away from the forum entirely.

[BenMax]

I am very curious as to what Dr. Lee has to say. I wonder if this condition can be inherited in the off spring. This subject is very important as I have a dog from a breeder that has hot spots as a life long condition. Personally, if it turns out that it can be inherited then I would love to sue the breeder if I could. But of course...the lemon law will do me no good as this poor dog was dumped at a shelter for euthanasia and the breeder had no interest whatsoever to take the dog back.
Welcome.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by BenMax

I am very curious as to what Dr. Lee has to say. I wonder if this condition can be inherited in the off spring. This subject is very important as I have a dog from a breeder that has hot spots as a life long condition. Personally, if it turns out that it can be inherited then I would love to sue the breeder if I could. But of course...the lemon law will do me no good as this poor dog was dumped at a shelter for euthanasia and the breeder had no interest whatsoever to take the dog back.
Welcome.

BenMax,
Hot spots are a skin infection, so they can not be inherited. There may be an inherited condition causing your dog to have delicate skin, but more likely not. In my dog's case physical trauma to the skin was a factor, that's not her fault.
You can have a lot of bloodwork, allergy tests, etc. done to try to see what is going on with your own dog, but in the end even if it turns out your dog suffers an inherited condition, it is a breeder's choice whether to guarantee a puppy at all. Mine are guaranteed free of all hereditary/congenital problems for life. Yours, having come from a shelter, would only have the health guarantee the shelter provided you.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by BenMax

I am very curious as to what Dr. Lee has to say. I wonder if this condition can be inherited in the off spring. This subject is very important as I have a dog from a breeder that has hot spots as a life long condition. Personally, if it turns out that it can be inherited then I would love to sue the breeder if I could. But of course...the lemon law will do me no good as this poor dog was dumped at a shelter for euthanasia and the breeder had no interest whatsoever to take the dog back.
Welcome.

You know BenMax, almost every health condition is inherited in some way. Genes are what determines what an animal will be prone to or not.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by aslan

Hmmmm at no point did i attack you so of course you don't need to defend yourself..i stated the the simple truth,,those that don't breed wouldn't be able to give you the information you are looking for..as for skin conditions i have an extreme amount of experience as a retired groomer,,but i can't say that i have ever seen a hot spot from a stud with bad aim. Sorry you're finding the need to feel defensive,,wasn't my intention. All i can suggest is wait for Dr. Lee to return and see what he says..Oh and I would have said welcome off the bat if it had been a welcome thread,,but better late than never..." welcome to the forum".

Thanks for clarifying. Yes your original reply came across badly, glad it was not intended so. Just because most people here are pro spay/neuter, I did not assume that none are breeders or have never been so.

Minor rub marks from breeding are actually quite common (via vet), but would not always progress to a hot spot. Bathing during or just after estrus is best avoided, so I would not be surprised if your clients usually postponed grooming appointments until later, if they chose to have their dog groomed during pregnancy.

[aslan]

The only two i can think of off the top of my head that breed would be Goldfields or Erykah...from what i gather Goldfields has more experience but being in Australia she usually posts early in the morning our time.

[Dr Lee]

Was diagnostic imaging performed? X-Rays? preferably ultrasound?

What about vaginal swab cytology?

Abdominal palpation and CBC are helpful but not the best methods to diagnose pyometra. If the uterus can be felt on palpation, then I wouldn't consider it "mildly enlarged." Furthermore CBCs can be elevated for many reasons. Also for several reasons, life threatening infections, including pyometra, can be present with a "normal" CBC.

In general, no pyometra is a good antibiotic candidate. They are typically only surgical candidates.

For non-infectious ovarian/uterine problems, false pregnancy or inflammation can be present.

If the pet has not been bred/with a male, then the dog cannot be pregnant. If you are not sure, the best method to evaluate is an ultrasound - not only can you see the fetuses but can also ensure that the puppies are alive. It is also the most straighforward method to look for pyometra.

There are also two types of pyometra - "open" and "closed" pyometra. Open pyometras have an open cervix which allows fluid to drip out. CLosed or partially closed pyometras will have little to no discharge. Thus the amount/frequency/presence of discharge is NOT a good method to evaluate pyometra. In fact, a pyometra with little to no discharge can be MORE dangerous then one that does because the pus has no where to go. Any type of pyometra is considered life threatening.

When pyometra is a concern, you need to get a diagnosis and if the disease is confirmed, then surgery should be performed right away.

I hope that this helps.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Dr Lee

Was diagnostic imaging performed? X-Rays? preferably ultrasound?

What about vaginal swab cytology?

Abdominal palpation and CBC are helpful but not the best methods to diagnose pyometra. If the uterus can be felt on palpation, then I wouldn't consider it "mildly enlarged." Furthermore CBCs can be elevated for many reasons. Also for several reasons, life threatening infections, including pyometra, can be present with a "normal" CBC.

In general, no pyometra is a good antibiotic candidate. They are typically only surgical candidates.

For non-infectious ovarian/uterine problems, false pregnancy or inflammation can be present.

If the pet has not been bred/with a male, then the dog cannot be pregnant. If you are not sure, the best method to evaluate is an ultrasound - not only can you see the fetuses but can also ensure that the puppies are alive. It is also the most straighforward method to look for pyometra.

There are also two types of pyometra - "open" and "closed" pyometra. Open pyometras have an open cervix which allows fluid to drip out. CLosed or partially closed pyometras will have little to no discharge. Thus the amount/frequency/presence of discharge is NOT a good method to evaluate pyometra. In fact, a pyometra with little to no discharge can be MORE dangerous then one that does because the pus has no where to go. Any type of pyometra is considered life threatening.

When pyometra is a concern, you need to get a diagnosis and if the disease is confirmed, then surgery should be performed right away.

I hope that this helps.

Thank you for your reply Dr Lee.

She has been bred, and if she had not become ill, I would assume a successful breeding and current pregnancy. Under the toxic environment in a pyometric uterus, however, I would not expect the zygotes to survive.

The decision to try antibiotics was made due to several factors that made her a better candidate than typical (age, breed, stage of pregnancy, etc.), and due to her subsequent complete recovery of symptoms, seems to have been the right decision. Yes I am aware that immediate surgery is the typical recommendation for the typical patient with pyometra.

Pyometra was the most logical diagnosis based upon symptoms, examination, and the testing that was done. There was no discharge to swab, she is closed. Her blood was looked at under a microscope to confirm the results of the machine.

Based on your reply, it sounds like I am right to wonder. The skin infection could have been the true illness; the uterus may in fact be healthy or under a non-infectious condition. It is too early to ultrasound for puppies, but that may be the best thing to do to confirm pyometra versus pregnancy, before she gets that hormone injection.

[shirley1011]

2) I have a waiting list for the litter and want to know what to tell them.[/QUOTE]

SamIam, this is not off topic...you are the one bringing up having a litter and we are just responding to what you really should tell your list waiting for puppies....that you are being responsible and not bringing any more unwanted dogs into this world while there are thousands waiting for homes. Just my

[shirley1011]

No if there weren't any to purchase, they would rescue...I bred for years because there was nowhere in Eastern Ontario to purchase.....but this site has educated me..and I will not breed again....why not do the same....what is your purpose other than $$$

[aslan]

just wondering have you had the dog to the vet to find out if it is pyometra,,if it is how is not treating her going to affect her and the litter if she's even pregnant,,have you had that confirmed?

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by aslan

just wondering have you had the dog to the vet to find out if it is pyometra,,if it is how is not treating her going to affect her and the litter if she's even pregnant,,have you had that confirmed?

I was wondering the same thing. Did you get a second opinion? How is your dog?
Bigger question..are you planning on spaying after this litter in order to possibly save her life?

[shirley1011]

Our male was a Canaian Grand Champion..and all pups CKC registered but I would rather help where I can with any rescues of N.E. that come along...much more rewarding.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Yes she's been to the vet twice so far. Not treating her would kill both her and the pups, which is why treatment was started immediately following the first vet appointment. It is too early to confirm pregnancy and distinguish it from other possible explanations.

Has it been confirmed she does not have pyometra SamIam? I think that was the question. We are concerned about your little girl. That's all.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Maybe you don't understand how a waiting list works? Or why it exists? Or why people put their name down on one?

few quick questions,,is your Chi AKC or CKC registered,,is she titled,,how many times has she been bred and starting at what age,,,how many pups per litter?

[shirley1011]

Seems like you are very argumentative....however, I do know how a waiting list works and I have a waiting list as long as your arm...and I am not breeding!!! I have the dogs but not doing it!!!!!!! and there are none of my breed available in Canada for adoption but there are thousands and thousands of others who I recommend everytime someone calls to see if there will soon be a litter....