Do Not Know What To Do!!!

[Rottielover]

I need everybody's help here. I used to volunteer at rescue, and help new adoptees with behaviour with their new pets, used to foster for a couple different rescue groups. SO please do not make me out to be a bad person.
With my spca special rottie lab mix, I have been having problems with her since she was 8 months old. More or less when I found out I was pg. We did basic OB, and continued with her, but nothing seems to help with her fear. Trainers have stated that she might be wired wrong....My major concern is my BF, he loves her to death, but whatever he tries, she is unpredictable around him. One second lovey dovey, next second running to her cage in fear or peeing on the floor. Only time she NORMALLY feels safe if she is under me, or in her cage. BUT today she tried to lunge at him through the cage.
She is perfectly healthy, physically, mentally she is unstable. But with me I am her security blanket. I can not protect her from everyday noises, or my BF that she thinks is such a big monster. I have had her since she was 3 1/2 months, but in that time before, she was in 2 homes. I do not know what else to do, the vet suggested meds, but it will not help her fears which is the problem. And she also said that giving strong meds like that can do real damage to her liver, she did not reccomend. Now I was given 2 options, NONE that I ever thought I would have to do. Find a quiet home for her, with other animals, or as one trainer said, humanely euthanize her, her deamons are too strong for her to cope. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO. up to today I did not fear for my baby's safety, I also never thought she would growl and lunge from her cage......I want to do the best for her....I am not a cruel person....... I love my animals
__________________

[lezzpezz]

Nobody is judging you as a cruel person. Of COURSE you love your animals....why else would you be reaching out and asking for help? Have you considered consulting with an animal behaviouralist? Try the yellow pages of the phone book or ask your vet if one can be recommended to you. It is wonderful that you are seeking options from the many knowledgeable folks on this site. I am sure that there will be numerous good ideas that come forth shortly. In the mean time, call your vet and look in the book.

[angie79]

If you are afraid for your baby's sake, it is not safe to have the dog in the house with the baby. not sure how old your baby is but when the bay starts walking running, falling and the dog is unpredictable your going to have to do something then, but its not worth the risk.

It's really hard but you have to put your childs safety first.

[Rottielover]

She has seen a behaviourist, they also think she might be wired wrong, may be better in a quieter home, but How can I let her go, seeing her playing in the baby pool in the back as nothing is wrong, then another min she is in the house cowering, and peeing.

[angie79]

what exactly do they mean by "wired wrong".

[Rottielover]

the vet said in some cases she has seen that from birth, there is a genetic defect. something like that. unstable. nothing you can do about but make there lives easier to cope. I got her from the spca when she was 3 1/2 months old, and very sick for 3 months, so I never guessed anything could be wrong. she had 2 homes before me. No idea why she was given up, most likely reg puppy things. I was so determined to make this the last home for her. But with her fear becoming worse, and more unstable, MY home is too much for her. I can not be with her 24/7 I have a 15 month old daughter. Angel loves by the way. I just think she needs more of a quieter home. I disagree with anyone telling me to put her down, she is a great dog, just very weak nerved. and POSSIBLY wired wrong. I did all that I could, and am still trying, but I am so tired, and MY BF is so upset. He can not even be in the same room with her, but outside is fine?????

[Shamrock]

Rottielover, I'm sorry you are faced with such a heartwrenching situation.

How old is your girl now?
I certainly would not agree with the suggestion of putting her down,regardless of her age. She is healthy, and I think.. a young dog too.

If this is the first time she has exhibited the lunging behaviour today?
Could it be that she is not well, has an sore spot...or something else triggered this?

Is she your only pet?
How is she with other men?
Is the runing to the safety of her cage and peeing on the floor only as a reaction to him...or does she do this at other times too?

Are there any meds that can even be "tried" with her that will help with this issue? Maybe a second vet opinion on this option to confirm that there are not.
It sad that the vet, trainers and behaviourist have all offered a rather negative prognosis for any solution other than rehoming her. And of course a quiet home doesnt guarantee a solution either, depending on what is the root cause of this behaviour. If she is in fact "wired wrong" - it might take only the smallest thing to set her off....

It's a difficult and emotional issue which is sure to leave you feeilng very torn.
Of course you love your dog, and want only the best for her.
My heart goes out to you, and I wish you and your sweet girl the best outcome.

[LL1]

Many rescues (actually many dogs)lunge or growl in a cage,its territory and their safe place.I wouldnt worry as she is not doing this outside the cage.

She does not sound unstable to me.She needs more socializing in my opinion,and you said 'I can not protect her from everyday noises, or my BF that she thinks is such a big monster.'You should not protect her from noises or your bf or scary things,she needs to become used to them not hidden or protected from them.

[Lucky Rescue]

It's impossible for us to know, but some byb dogs are just temperamentally unstable, ("wired wrong*) and often all the love and kindness in the world cannot change temperament. She could have been given up in the past for this very thing - who knows?

If you feel this large and "unpredictable" dog is not safe to have around, please do not give her to someone else.

You live with her, and only you can know what the right thing is.

[Rottielover]

To answer about the cage lunging, that was her first time, and she has never ever shown any signs of anything aggressive other than real fear. There is something about my BF that triggers it, I do not know what. He has never ever abused her, she was acting this way ( weak nerved ) before him. I am not worried about the aggressive nature, But I also do not think it is fair for her to constly be in fear in my home. She is an amazing dog. if the fear thing was not there. We do everything together, but I always have to be her security blanket. I am making another apt with a behaviourist. 2nd opinion
If she thinks she may do better in a quieter home. Could any of you nice people help me........ I love her, and only want the best for her and her sanity

[LavenderRott]

I hate to say, I agree with LR. (Not because I never agree with LR or anything like that, but more because I know that is not what YOU want to hear.)

From the sounds of your OP, this dog has been socialized to the best of your (and her) ability and more then one trainer has suggested that this dog is weak-nerved.

While some might suggest that lunging in a crate is no cause for alarm, I know several very territorial dogs that NEVER lunge at people or animals when they are crated. They know that their crate is a safe place to be and feel no need to defend their area.

While rehoming into a quiet home would be wonderful, there are a couple of problems with this. Once the dog leaves your home, the new owner is under no obligation to do anything that they said they would do when they get the dog from you. Meaning - while they say that they will keep this dog forever - they might not be able to handle her either and decide to rehome her yet again. Or - they may just get mad at the dog for peeing on the floor for what they think is "no reason" and give her a spanking. Also, if she is truly weak-nerved, the aggression may well escalate and someone may get hurt.

I have put down a weak nerved dog and it was the hardest thing I have ever had to do. Yes, the dog was physically fine, but she had soooooo many issues that rehoming her was just not an option. The harder decision was to hold her in my arms while she left this world.

[Luba]

She may have been abused by a man this is why she reacts to your bf this way.

To change this he could do positive interactions with her such as 'feeding' her and taking her for walks, playing with her by himself, without you around at first. Bonding with her and cuddling with her.

I don't know what she is like with treats and rewards but if your bf maybe came over one day with a pocket full (baggy full) of cut up steak in little pieces and gently fed them to her....initially tossing them in front of her then closer and closer to him, then finally taking from his hand...this may help.

She needs to hear SOFT spoken words from him telling her she is a good girl each time she takes one.

If he does this little task many times over he may just win over her heart. Every single time he comes to her he can do something beneficial like say something nice and soft to her 'good girl'

There doesn't need to be any direct physical bonding at first, just positive reassuring words.

When she starts to take the food from his hand then I'd say thats the time to put the leash on her and let him take her for a walk by himself, giving her some of that yummie steak along the way.

I think it's worth a try. Rehoming her may just make her worse, she needs stability. Sending her to 'another ' new environment may just send her to her death.

Please try some of these options.

IF you take her to obedience class let you bf go with you and observe, perhaps discuss the situation with the trainer and maybe they have some ideas after watching the interaction.

My dog can be timid and afraid, just her nature. Some people she's been known to shy from just a sense she has about them. BUT if its' someone I have at my house regularly we work it out.



I think there is LOTS of hope here!! I agree with LL1

Also dogs react to what they perceive from us. If you and your bf argue in front of a dog thats sensitive this may be part of the problem.

[Rottielover]

I am in tears reading this LR, I was just outside playing with her in the baby pool, and she was fine. How can you see a dog like that, and make this decision. I too had to do it once before, but the aggression was showing through, which made the decision alittle easier, seeing someone might get hurt. I do not know if I can do it again It is breaking my heart. I also do not need harley to pick up any of her weak nerves if that is possible. Is there anyone on this site that knows how to take care of a dog like her. I am just so exhausted......

[DogueLover]

I am only writing this from my point of view and from my past experience.
I worked with a rotti that had "issues" from mistreatment towards her from a previous owner.
She had a fear of men, anyone in uniform, blonde women, she hated cats, she would be aggressive toward anyone who got in her space, but she was alright with me.
She didn`t like cowboy hats, ball caps, or any other type of gear on your head, sunglasses, ropes, brooms. She attacked my hairdryer, vaccuum, and any other appliance that made noise.
She wasn`t wired wrong, she had issues.

My hubby fell in love with her, but had to learn to understand her.

He wanted her to be his dog, and eventually she was, but it took almost 2 years before she trusted him enough to not fear him.

She was fine with people IF they let her come to them instead of them coming up to her. She had been abused severely and was unsure of human contact. I cannot blame her for being aggressive toward people, the only human contact she had ever had was abusive, I think I would be the same way if every time someone came up to me they hit me or beat me.

I wonder if your dog has some of the same issues going on with her. The rotti I worked with bit my husband 4 times before they came to the understanding that she wanted respect and he understood her fear. They were inseperable from that point on.

I would love to help you out with this dog and her issues, I truely think that she deserves to be given a chance.
You said that you have a small child and that would have me a bit on edge but I wonder if the dog has ever shown aggression toward the child. If she does this with your bf maybe there is a reason from her past why she distrusts him. I used to call those things "triggers" for the dog I worked with.

If you would like to discuss this further and get some ideas to try with this dog pm me and I`ll be glad to help you out.

"You don`t throw someone out just because they are banged up a little" __ one of my favorite lines from Seabiscuit.

[Rottielover]

He has tried doing everything with her. Feeding her and so on, just makes her more unstable. OB class too. we never fight in front of the dogs, and there is rarely tension. As I said, it has been escalating, instead of getting better, and more randomly.

[Luba]

Your home needs to have a calmness about it which will carry through to the dog. Forcing her to do everything all at once can be too challenging for her, esp when she is nervous.

It's like desensitizing someone who has a fear of heights, you wouldn't tell them to get on a roller coaster right off would ya? NOPE

One little step at a time, and stay at the step until the dog is comfortable. Do NOT rush this, I think that is maybe what you've been doing ..forcing it too fast.

Back up slow down and take it easy!

My dog is very nervous and timid with unusual things, weirdo things. She used to jump at my face and claw at me if I made weird noises with my mouth or blew bubbles or chewed gum.

If I raised my voice if even to call to someone in the next room she'd jump on top of me and lean her whole body onto my face.

Trust me, I know what it's like and it CAN be worked out!!

Like I said, calm it down, tone it down and let things relax.

Does your bf live with you or just come to visit? How often?

[Toonces]

I agree with Dogue. I am a foster for GSRT and we have had many fearful dogs in our rescue, and I know it was posted but I wanna say it again. Nobody has any idea what happened with this poor dog. That breaks my heart.

I am on foster number 4 and am also a close friend of the gal who runs GSRT and I know what goes on with fosters, adopters and every dog we try to help.

We have had many that could be your dog. Your dog is a Rottie cross, but Sheps have the same territorial issues. This is a dog that is scared. That is how they act. Everything fun and good should come from your man. ALL food. ALL treats. ALL walks. AND obedience class. No letting up, no backing down. Start nothing in life is free, do you know what that is? I can tell you more? Do NOT baby this dog. Do not hide her from the world.

Most recent dog like this was Zia. Our rescue took her in when a Montreal rescue ran into issues that aren't important. Same exact thing. Her adopter had to do all the things I posted. And it worked great!! We are so proud of her! And her Mom and patient Dad! And she was with a foster Mom with kids and there is kid in her house now and she is with neighbor kids. A very long haul, but very worth it. You love your dog and she is worth it.

[Rottielover]

as I said i have been to trainers, and behaviourist, they told me the same thing, He has been taking it slow. the NILF works great with my other dog, but angel will not take anything from him unless I am there. So he does feed her, and praise her. talks mushy to her, but no luck, as I said has been going on since she was 8 months old, just getting worse with age not better. My bf has lived with me since OCT, and she was fine for 1 month, was all happy, then back to fearful self. But that was also the time I introduced the puppy.

[tenderfoot]

You seem like a very sweet, soft hearted person - thank you for giving this girl a chance.
One thing that you said in a post was that this has happened before with another dog. Could be luck of the draw OR not.
In the current trend of "positive" training many dogs are being euthanized because their people think it means never having to say no - and the dogs never get the healthy leadership they need and they respond by becoming fearful which turns into aggression. In our minds 'positive' training is about being positive in your expectations and not being violent or physical to achieve those expectations.
All the love in the world is a wonderful thing to have & give, but it may not be what this girl needs most. YES she needs love and patience. But I believe she needs black and white boundaries that she can feel safe in, she needs to trust and respect her humans and she needs to experience the very things we are all avoiding because of her fears. She is extremely insecure and fearful - no news to you. Often the teenage months magnify a dogs worst problems. We need to help her grow up and get over it.
A CONFIDENT LEADER HAS A CONFIDENT PACK.
Picture her as an 8 year old girl who still cries for mommy when she has to go to school or camp, she runs from strangers, she distrusts mommies BF, she overreacts to lifes simple changes. Coddling her is not the answer - giving her clear boundaries in her world just might be.
I would attach her to me on leash and have her with me as much as possible. I know you are saying she follows you everywhere all ready. There is difference between her following you out of insecurity versus because you said so. This allows you to monitor her reactions to things and not let her take flight. It reminds you to give her lots of jobs - do this, do that - all through the day. This keeps her mind busy with your words, excreting calming chemicals in her brain and looking to you for the answers to her life. You can start creating boundaries for her that tell her when and where she can go. No more leaning into you for security(velcro dog syndrome) - she can sit 6" away from you and be just fine. You need to go into different rooms and drop the leash and tell her to stay out while you brush your teeth, wash dishes, say goodnight to the baby, etc. So sometimes she is with you and working and other times she is learning how to survive without you right next to her. She is learning balance.
After you have worked with her it is your BF's turn. He needs to engage her mind and start developing a relationshp built on trust and respect. He needs to not make too much eye contact at first so that the dog can find her own comfort zone with him. As he feels her relax then he can engage more emotionally. He should not get angry with her for any infraction. There is a difference between correcting with anger and correcting with clarity. He needs to be clear about what he expects of her and be soft in his responses.
This girl needs clear structure in her life. Right now she doesn't believe that anyone is looking out for her safey and she does not believe in herself either - so she overreacts to life in her only attempt to stay alive.

[Toonces]

I didn't see that part, sorry!!! You got a puppy while you were having problems with her? That's a different story.

But on the main one, don't fall into the trap, she will evenually take things from him without you there, wait her out. He should hand feed her too, that helps alot! She will not starve! YOU need to show her.

Originally Posted by Rottielover

but angel will not take anything from him unless I am there. So he does feed her, and praise her. talks mushy to her, but no luck,

My bf has lived with me since OCT, and she was fine for 1 month, was all happy, then back to fearful self.

But that was also the time I introduced the puppy.

[Lucky Rescue]

Originally Posted by Rottielover

He has tried doing everything with her. Feeding her and so on, just makes her more unstable. OB class too. we never fight in front of the dogs, and there is rarely tension. As I said, it has been escalating, instead of getting better, and more randomly.

Everyone assumes fearful dogs have been abused, but that is not always the case. Sometimes they are born that way. As you said, it's very rough for her being afraid all the time. And a fearful dog is often more dangerous than an outright aggressive one.

You know her better than anyone and you say it's getting worse (her behavior) and it sounds like you have done everything humanely possible.

There is no reason to think it will improve if you give her to someone else, and you could be setting yourself up for serious problems if you do so.

I feel just terrible for all of you, but cannot advise you on what to do.

[Luba]

I am my dogs security blanket to a degree, I've had her since she was a baby and she was like this from the get go!

Some things she improves with some things she doesn't and is still timid and afraid about like I was mentioning.

You say she lunged at your bf through the cage.

I'm confused a little , you said she runs to her cage when she is afraid. Try to determine what it is that happens just before this... a loud noise a loud laugh a certain tone of voice? So she ran into the cage afraid and then he went to the cage? The door was open / closed and if it was closed why was she in the cage with the door closed? I'd like to know a little more about the actual event considering this is the ONLY sign of aggression she has shown.

The rest has been fear to date as you stated, so lets look at the specific event in question. Before going through everything in detail and finding the triggers and situation I think it be foolish to make ANY kind of a decision.

If you rehome her and something changes in that home, then she is back at step one. Not all dogs bite or attack when they are afraid, they will retreat most of the time if given somewhere to go where they feel safe.

[Spurby]

If you believe dogs go through fear stages, and i do, then perhaps that is where and why these issues started, and didn't end. You state these problems started at 8 months of age, that is one age period that they do go through a fear stage. If they are coddled, then their fear didn't stop since they were basically being praised for it, it was encouraged. Not sure, since we can't see this dog in person. I do hope your new trainer can assist you with this dog.

[Spurby]

Here is an aritcle that has information on the different stages that puppies go through, may be of some help http://www.doberman.org/articles/puppy.htm

[Cactus Flower]

I find it very ironic that in one thread, someone is being called every name in the book for surrendering/ultimately euthanising a dog that had bad aggression problems (had even bitten her and tried to bite her young son) that the rehab trainers deemed too severe to rehabilitate........and in this thread some members are tearfully agreeing that Rottilovers dog should be humanely euthanised.

Rottilover, I'm sorry for what you are going through, and trust that whatever you decide to do will be what's best.

[twinmommy]

Cf- No one is upset with Rottielover because she still HAS her dog and is seemingly going to do the right thing, --for her and her family. She is obviously very concerned with her dog--and NOT her plants.

In the case of Keeper, the OP lied about the dog's probs and brought him to a shelter after having being told to "hang on" and Keeper died alone, at the OHS. Nothing humane about it, and I think that's what gets people upset.

Rottielover--I have a dog that we have been working on for a few months. She has never lunged, or bit, but the randomness is the same. You can p.m. me if you want, I have a great trainer for you. I had him come to my house and make sure I had gotten rid of all the triggers--b/c you want o keep the environment safe for your kids while you work things out.

I have never felt in my heart that we were ready to take the "final step".
If I had PTS, I would've regret it by now, as she is really a good girl, and we just keep plugging at it. One day, things might just not work any more, but how could I not try, right? The important thing is that your kids are safe. Once your kids are safe and you get your "system" you'll see it's not so "exhausting"...(man could I relate to that!!)

I can tell you how to make your house safe with lots of baby gates--which by the way, you'd need with ANY dog as you attempt to mix with toddlers.

[Sneaky2006]

Cf- No one is upset with Rottielover because she still HAS her dog and is seemingly going to do the right thing, --for her and her family. She is obviously very concerned with her dog--and NOT her plants.
In the case of Keeper, the OP lied about the dog's probs and brought him to a shelter after having being told to "hang on" and Keeper died alone, at the OHS. Nothing humane about it, and I think that's what gets people upset.

Yes that is true, but the point is that there are two dogs, both aggressive/biting/lunging and it's 'what's best' for one dog and 'horrible' for another.
You're right, the only difference is that the other owner lied about what the real problem was... that doesn't make the ending any different - she could've not come here, told the HS of her ordeal, the real reasons, and he would've been PTS, and that would've made it okay?
Is it because he was (a year, I think) younger or what? I don't get it.

[Cactus Flower]

She is obviously very concerned with her dog--and NOT her plants.

Keeper's owner admitted that this was NEVER about her plants, but was an aggression problem that she was afraid to advertise, yet everyone still keeps throwing that plant comment around. She even posted pictures of one of his bites on her. The people at the shelter found the aggression problem- he failed his behavioral tests because of it TWICE- and they decided not to even put him up for adoption, or release him back to his rescue or any of the people that were concerned about him. I'd say it's safe to assume that the aggression was pretty severe if they wouldn't even let someone else have a shot at him.

The comment has been made in this thread that you have to put the safety of your family first. Rottielover has also been urged NOT to rehome her dog because of the aggression. Yet Keeper's owner is still being bashed for not "hanging on" so he could have been rehomed.

I'm not going to hijack this thread into an argument about Keeper. I saw what I consider a bit hypocritical, commented upon it, and will leave it at that. We don't have to agree, and I will get over my disappointment. Promise .

Rottielover, I apologize for even bringing this up, and drawing attention away from your situation. I won't post again about it. I do agree that the safety of your family must come first, and still put all my faith in you deciding whatever is best.

[poodletalk]

CF-The problem with the owners of Keeper is very simple. People offered to find Keeper a foster home and not send it to the SPCA. She didn't even tell the orginal rescue that she was going to take it to the SPCA. LR-even offered to put the dog on her petfinder site. What was the point of her posting if she didn't want our help? Instead she sends the dog to the SPCA, we get upset not knowing its aggression. We call send e-mails, go through an emotional roller coaster to have her come on say she lied! I spent all Monday morning at work talking with the SPCA! She didn't even tell the ORGINAL RESCUE that Keeper had an aggression problem, maybe she did, they would have taken the dog back immediately?! She thought not telling anyone of Keepers "aggression" problem would help Keeper in some way-obviously it didin't. When the dog was at the orginal rescue, he didn't have any aggression issues, if you happen to know the orginal rescue go to their website and click on rescent adoption. You will see the previous owner hugging Keeper and Keeper looks sweet and cuddly. So what happened to Keeper in those 5 months living with the previous owner? Lack of training. When talking on the phone with the SPCA, Keeper had alpha issues. SPCA even admited that if Keeper lived and worked with a trainer of 6 months, he would be an AMAZING dog-but they didn't want to give him a chance.

I don't understand,maybe its me. When you take an animal its for life, you work through their problems if health issues araise you deal with them also. You don't rehome an animal if they have issues- the issues DON'T disappear in a new home. They problems are worst, now the poor animal is wondering what happened to its family and it gets depressed. You take the good with the bad.Euthansia is NEVER the answer when the animal is healthy and their solutions to the problem. I agree with Luba and TenderFoots comments what to do help a frightened dog.

CF-please don't think I am venting out at you, to me euthanisia is just an easy way out.

[Rottielover]

OK..OK..OK, I do not even want to think about this option.....As I said I still trust angel, which is a big thing. As for the cage lunging. My bf was walking by her cage ( door closed) to go towards the kitchen. But even with that lunging....last night she was playing ball outside with himself and I. Can you say I am REALLY confused. She was still shy of him, but played anyways because of a ball. No joke one min she is great with him, the next she is cowering and freaked. She even started hiding behind my rottie puppy.
I do not believe she has an aggressive bone in her, and that is why if I could rehome her to a quieter home, without her major trigger ( My BF) she will sleep alot better. Not with one eye open so to speak.
The behaviourist that I made another apt with, I am not bothering, she is not will to see in Angels enviroment. Which is home. She is fine outside the home, so no need.
As hard as this is for me...... :sad: :sad: (typing in tears)
I Really think her best option is to find another home......someone who can give her as much love as I love her. I am not going to give her up easily. Has to be an exceptional home....
I do not think it is fair to euthanize her is the option to take the trigger way is there....
Am I doing the right thing...I can not even work, I am so sick to my stomache :sad: