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  #31  
Old April 17th, 2011, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mummummum View Post
S'arighty then ... errrrmmm...I was actually waiting for you to begin. Nothing like pseudo-philosophy to kickstart the ol' pre-frontal cortex.

Sooooo, sew-sew...Is the above your stated position? Perhaps you would like to elaborate a little. And if I may, a little clarification on your statement:
"we didnt create ourselfs, so how on what grounds are we better then insects"
would not go amiss. Further, is this a pure creationist perspective, intelligent design....?
i guess i should have been more sensitive to peoples beliefs.
i, believe in god, so i believe god created humans, animals, insects, bugs, etc..etc..

so in respect to that, i believe that im not better then the insects i've killed over the years, or the animals i've taken in for that matter. so thats really the center of where these thoughts and feelings are coming from.

i wonder what an atheist or someone with other beliefs would say about relationship between humans and other beings...?

im trying to be more sensitive to the fact that my superiority to animals and insects isnt an excuse for me to treat them badly (not that i do) or to think of them and their purpose in life lightly.
i've stopped eating meats because i do not condone the way animals are slaughtered. this is something that saddens me, because kuwait is an islamic country, and islam has laws and ways in which you slaughter animals, and no ones implementing them.

hope that answers your question mummummum. btw, i like spelling your name
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  #32  
Old April 17th, 2011, 11:17 AM
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So sew-sew, if I understand you correctly, you believe that your god created humans as superior to all other creatures on the planet. That you are at the top of the food chain, as it were, and that creatures exist to serve you in whatever way you see fit.

I assume you base this belief solely on your faith that your god exists or are you able to explain and support this belief system with examples from nature and science? Aside from man's obvious capacity for expropriating the lives of others and use of enslavement and torture as "the means to an end" that is.

Good topic for discussion btw
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  #33  
Old April 17th, 2011, 01:52 PM
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I underatand your curiosity in my beliefs, but i'd much appreciate it if we could stay on track with this thread. You know, about bugs and insects, if people believe they have rights just like animals and humans do?

If you want to talk about religion I'd be happy to dicuss my beliefs with you through pm .
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  #34  
Old April 17th, 2011, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sew-sew-steve View Post
i guess i should have been more sensitive to peoples beliefs.
i, believe in god, so i believe god created humans, animals, insects, bugs, etc..etc..

so in respect to that, i believe that im not better then the insects i've killed over the years, or the animals i've taken in for that matter. so thats really the center of where these thoughts and feelings are coming from.

i wonder what an atheist or someone with other beliefs would say about relationship between humans and other beings...?

name
seems like you were the one who wanted to discuss religion!

I personally don't think bugs, insects have a place in religion...and some insects are benefial and others are down right nasty...and each of us has to do what we have to do to survive the great outdoors just my
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  #35  
Old April 17th, 2011, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sew-sew-steve View Post
I underatand your curiosity in my beliefs, but i'd much appreciate it if we could stay on track with this thread. You know, about bugs and insects, if people believe they have rights just like animals and humans do?

If you want to talk about religion I'd be happy to dicuss my beliefs with you through pm .
Actually sew-sew, I'm not the least bit interested in your religion and if you have read what I've posted I haven't referred to religion once. However, I believe you have several times.

I've simply asked you to establish the framework for your ideology of hierarchy amongst species and how that relates to nature and science. As you subsequently mentioned a belief in a god and wondered out loud what atheists believe about insects and their "place in the order of things" as it were, I simply asked you to establish that framework whether it be creationism, intelligent design or...

Were you to describe yourself as Judeo-Christian, Pagan, Satanist, Muslim, Wiccan, Humanist, Agnostic, Athiest ~ it's all really quite irrelevant to me in a philosophical or ideological discussion and I've not asked you to provide that particular label to me. So your inference that I am "off topic" is mystifying. A misunderstanding perhaps.

However, if you are discomforted by a higher level of discussion so be it. It's not for everyone.

So, let me put it more simply then... are bugs here for your* purpose, your use, is their very existence determined by you?

* "you" and "your" here is used as equivalent to "human" reflective only of how you sew-sew, see yourself as a human in relation to what you describe as lesser species.
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  #36  
Old April 17th, 2011, 03:35 PM
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I guess it boils down to morals. What I ment was not that I wanted to discuss religion. But what people believe is ok and what people believe isn't ok with bugs and insects... And Beliefs effect it to a certain extent.

For example, I as a Muslim, believe that god created everything. So despite being the superior, I don't believe I'm better then an insect because I didn't create myself. I never decided I did or didn't want to be human and the same goes for the insect or bug.

I doubt an atheist or someone with a differed background in belief would say the same thing.

Catch my drift?
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  #37  
Old April 17th, 2011, 03:46 PM
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No, I don't actually sew-sew.

An atheist or an agnostic or a wiccan or a pagan, perhaps even those of judeo-christian beliefs, do not necessarily believe in their moral or their innate superiority to other life forms.

So, let me ask you the same question from a different perspective.

What makes you think you are not a parasite ?
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  #38  
Old April 17th, 2011, 03:56 PM
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What makes me believe that I am not a
Parasite is the fact that I ultimately depend on myself for survival and not on anyone else.

Are you saying humans aren't superior to insects or bugs?
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  #39  
Old April 17th, 2011, 03:56 PM
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I dont think superiority has anything to do with religion, rather with personal belief as to the order of species in the world. I am personally an atheist and i dont think any species is 'superior' to another. In nature, each species has its own purpose and unique skill/ability that helps their survival. I dont think that human being are very superior at all... evey day i see more and more examples of such utter stupidity and senseless violence and waste, that i dont see how we can be so 'superiorr. we have certain strengths other species dont have, but we also have weaknesses that other species dont have...
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  #40  
Old April 17th, 2011, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sew-sew-steve View Post
What makes me believe that I am not a
Parasite is the fact that I ultimately depend on myself for survival and not on anyone else.
But humans slowly consume the earth's resources for their survival... we consume them at such a rate that we are slowly killing it off.... just like a parasite...
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  #41  
Old April 17th, 2011, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sew-sew-steve View Post
What makes me believe...?
Thank you again for what may become a very invigorating discussion and I appreciate your intent to relieve this discussion with the heavy-hand of the "need to defend one's religion".

So, let's take this in two easy parts then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sew-sew-steve View Post
What makes me believe that I am not a
Parasite is the fact that I ultimately depend on myself for survival and not on anyone else.
If one depends only upon one's self for survival then that must by reductive logic mean...

you do not eat, you do not drink, your biological waste does not exist or disappears without a trace, you do not breathe, you are not clothed, you are not housed, you have no need for heat or cooling, you have no need of the "bugs" that live on the soles of your feet and your eyelashes or in your gut. In other words you do not exist.

With me so far? As Masha has rightly pointed out, we live on the planet and we live only because of the planet. Once the planet stops, so do we.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sew-sew-steve View Post
Are you saying humans aren't superior to insects or bugs?
Am I?

I'm fairly "well-travelled" ~ so, I try not to make distinctions amongst cultures. Human or animal.

I, and we as a species, do not yet understand and have no or few ways with which to communicate with those who do not speak "our" language. Be it vocal, sounds or physical signs. My earlier point...we humans, have a capacity for expropriating the lives of others and use of enslavement and torture as "the means to an end" ~ is that a good thing? Is that what it means to be a "superior" being?

Is that what it mean to be human? To see a hierarchy of what can be killed without regret and consumed.

Last edited by mummummum; April 17th, 2011 at 09:06 PM. Reason: splelling as usaul.
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  #42  
Old April 17th, 2011, 07:33 PM
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On a semi-related note, check out what amazing architects and farmers ants are: http://www.huginn.com/knuth/blog/200...nt-ant-colony/
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  #43  
Old April 18th, 2011, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mummummum View Post
Thank you again for what may become a very invigorating discussion and I appreciate your intent to relieve this discussion with the heavy-hand of the "need to defend one's religion".

So, let's take this in two easy parts then.



If one depends only upon one's self for survival then that must by reductive logic mean...

you do not eat, you do not drink, your biological waste does not exist or disappears without a trace, you do not breathe, you are not clothed, you are not housed, you have no need for heat or cooling, you have no need of the "bugs" that live on the soles of your feet and your eyelashes or in your gut. In other words you do not exist.

With me so far? As Masha has rightly pointed out, we live on the planet and we live only because of the planet. Once the planet stops, so do we.



Am I?

I'm fairly "well-travelled" ~ so, I try not to make distinctions amongst cultures. Human or animal.

I, and we as a species, do not yet understand and have no or few ways with which to communicate with those who do not speak "our" language. Be it vocal, sounds or physical signs. My earlier point...we humans, have a capacity for expropriating the lives of others and use of enslavement and torture as "the means to an end" ~ is that a good thing? Is that what it means to be a "superior" being?

Is that what it mean to be human? To see a hierarchy of what can be killed without regret and consumed.
so you believe humans aren't superior to other life forms. interesting...

as wonderful as this is -- or is getting to be -- i still havent gotten what i wanted, what i started this thread for in the first place. which is what people believe is ok or isnt ok with bugs and insects, and where to draw the line with what deserves humane treatment, and what doesnt...
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  #44  
Old April 18th, 2011, 05:17 AM
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On a semi-related note, check out what amazing architects and farmers ants are: http://www.huginn.com/knuth/blog/200...nt-ant-colony/
wow, thats pretty amazing.
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  #45  
Old April 18th, 2011, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Sew-sew-steve View Post
s i still havent gotten what i wanted, what i started this thread for in the first place. which is what people believe is ok or isnt ok with bugs and insects, and where to draw the line with what deserves humane treatment, and what doesnt...
I find it quite ok to kill those darn deer flies that are biting painfully at my neck when I want to go outside peacefully sit and enjoy my yard. And yup, I am quite fine with killing those flies that want to lay their eggs that create maggots in my garbage can. And yup, should I ever get bed bugs, don't mind killing them so they can't feed off my body and give me stressful nights sleep. And finally, I don't mind killing those spiders that come down into my face when I walk out my door at night. And those darn fleas and ticks that come on my cats, yup, kill every single on of them too, hopefully before they give my cats tapeworm or some evil bacterial infection. I don't know if cockroaches live in this climate, haven't seen one in any of my houses, but I would kill those too.

However, I would not go out of my way to kill anything that leaves me alone, such as bees, butterflies, moths, etc, etc. I have the live and let live kinda attitude. You leave me alone, I'll leave you alone.
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  #46  
Old April 18th, 2011, 01:32 PM
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If it's in the house, good chance it'll get killed, either by me or the cats or the dog. Outside, fine, stay outside! You wanna come in my house bug, do it at your own risk
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  #47  
Old April 18th, 2011, 02:28 PM
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I think this is a fascinating topic!
Personally, i feel bad when i kill bugs. I don't do it often but when i do I often feel guilty for a sec or two, then it passes. I feel bad because I think that life is precious even when it is a cockroach's life.

Usually i just catch the bug if I can and bring it outside. But If I feel it might be a health thing (and I think that killing it might stop some breeding/spreading) I have stepped on creepy crawlies. I might also swat any insect that is biting me, I don't feel bad.

I doubt I'd ever kill a higher life-form though (reptiles, mammals etc,)...and so i do think this makes me a hypocrite in some way. Because... I am judging which life is more important....I'd like to believe we are all equal though I realize this is not at all true from a practical point of view. (we need to kill to live - period.)

There are MANY religious groups that never kill bugs because they believe (afaik) that god is present in ALL living things and 2 groups that come to mind are Jains and many Buddhists. Personally - I find those goals to be excellent but very difficult to live by.

Another point to all of this has to do with how we are taught to think about bugs when we are children... When you watch your dad kill a bee or a fly it means that doing this is okay. This is a HUGE mistake. You can bet that David Suzuki never taught that to his kids - lol.

so that's my take on this - lol.
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  #48  
Old April 18th, 2011, 02:39 PM
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Whenever a deer fly or a horse fly takes a chunk out of my neck, they become a target for me to whack. All other insects definitely have their purpose and right to life.
Other than that, insects in my house like bumble bees, moths and such are always safely caught and released back to the outdoors. Oh, but I will use the vacuum on spiders if I need to.
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  #49  
Old April 19th, 2011, 12:32 AM
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thanks for the answers guys, especially marko! your post was EXACTLY what i was looking for, and to add to it, i feel the same way!

i guess what i've learned from starting this thread is that the rules of survival apply to all beings, big and small. and everything has its territory. if you step on an ant hill, they're going to attack you, if you disturb a bees nest, theyre going to attack you... so in order for us to be all equal, i guess it means its you can treat any intruder as an intruder, whether its a bug, a human, or a bear.

but has anyone noticed, its a lot easier to catch and release then it is to vacume or kill? i mean, who wants to deal with cleaning a stain after you've forced yourself to endure the disturbingly creepy job of killing a spider or some gross looking bug?
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  #50  
Old April 19th, 2011, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Sew-sew-steve View Post
but has anyone noticed, its a lot easier to catch and release then it is to vacume or kill? i mean, who wants to deal with cleaning a stain after you've forced yourself to endure the disturbingly creepy job of killing a spider or some gross looking bug?
I would love to be ablet to catch and release spiders... but i am physically incapable... i end up screaming and jumping involuntarily.... and usually take off in the oppsite direction... which make is hard to turn around and get so close to it to catch it in a cup and carry it with me anywhere

I find vaccuming certain bugs is a very effective tool for my sanity... especially when a spider hangs out on the ceiling right above my head in bed...
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Old April 19th, 2011, 07:47 AM
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but has anyone noticed, its a lot easier to catch and release then it is to vacume or kill?
I don't know about that, those darn deer and horse flies aren't really affectionate while I am kindly holding them in my hands asking them nicely to please go away .


Masha, I wouldn't be able to sleep , thinking the spider was going to come down while I'm sleeping with my mouth open
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Old April 19th, 2011, 08:14 AM
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I'll kill things that I know are harmful--ticks and skeeters, for instance--with no qualms. But I don't like to kill anything just because it happens to be in my house--so I'll trap and release anything that I want to get rid of. And if I do have to kill it, I'll be as humane and quick about it as I can--even with bugs! They're living creatures and suffer on their own scale, I'm sure, and it's no fault of their own that they're on my elimination list. For that reason, I won't even vacuum up lady bugs unless they're dead--the thought of them suffocating in the dust inside the bag actually makes me sad (Which, I might add, makes the asian lady beetles a real conundrum--too many to catch and release one-at-a-time and I won't vacuum up live ones--so we end up with lots of 'em crawling around the house at certain times of the year... )

I don't know that it's easier, per se, to catch-and-release than vacuum-and-kill, but release doesn't make me feel as guilty as killing.

Spiders used to give me the heebie-jeebies, but then I met ticks.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 02:50 PM
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I'll kill things that I know are harmful--ticks and skeeters, for instance--with no qualms. But I don't like to kill anything just because it happens to be in my house--so I'll trap and release anything that I want to get rid of. And if I do have to kill it, I'll be as humane and quick about it as I can--even with bugs! They're living creatures and suffer on their own scale, I'm sure, and it's no fault of their own that they're on my elimination list. For that reason, I won't even vacuum up lady bugs unless they're dead--the thought of them suffocating in the dust inside the bag actually makes me sad (Which, I might add, makes the asian lady beetles a real conundrum--too many to catch and release one-at-a-time and I won't vacuum up live ones--so we end up with lots of 'em crawling around the house at certain times of the year... )

I don't know that it's easier, per se, to catch-and-release than vacuum-and-kill, but release doesn't make me feel as guilty as killing.

Spiders used to give me the heebie-jeebies, but then I met ticks.
well said! i feel the same way!

but theres certain insects or bugs i dont mind holding, or observing while they rest on my finger (like lady bugs!).
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  #54  
Old April 19th, 2011, 03:16 PM
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I used to like lady bugs--but the asian ones bite!!! And stink... Still...I just can't bring myself to vacuum them up.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 04:18 PM
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---interesting discussion/reading. I am with those who live and let live "outside" and keep the creepy crawlers OUT of my house - as I wouldn't sleep at night knowing they were going to crawl over me or into my ears etc. I DO feel bad even when I squash a pill bug in my basement.... for me, the basic decision is: can I live with myself when I kill "anything" I am able to without going to jail (eg my neighbour)!!
I definitely feel I am bringing an end to the life of an insect, but have to weigh the pros and cons and my concience. For sure, everyone has an opinion - and no-one (no-one) knows whether it's right or wrong - until that day we all meet up in "another place" - where maybe all these "mysteries and miseries" of life will be explained.
I remember reading a long time ago that earth is "inhospitable" to humans and that bugs and disease are, basically, out to kill us (such as eboli): but don't remember who said it.... anyone know?
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Old April 19th, 2011, 05:26 PM
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Inthedoghouse Inthedoghouse is offline
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The bug still dies !

..just had a thought: is there a difference if a bat kills a mosquito and eats it, or I swat and kill a mosquito? The bug still dies. If I eat it, does it ex out my action?
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Old April 19th, 2011, 07:18 PM
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Masha Masha is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inthedoghouse View Post
..just had a thought: is there a difference if a bat kills a mosquito and eats it, or I swat and kill a mosquito? The bug still dies. If I eat it, does it ex out my action?
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Old April 19th, 2011, 10:15 PM
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I'm not eating any ticks to see if it exes out my actions, Inthedoghouse! Just sayin'...

But that is a very unique way of looking at the question!
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Old April 20th, 2011, 12:25 AM
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Sew-sew-steve Sew-sew-steve is offline
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good question!


this is how i look at it... the bat is doing it as a means of survival, we do it as a means of comfort...? ok, wait... they could have malaria or some kind of disease, but that doesnt really scare me when im in kuwait or canada because the water here and there is predominantly clean.

so again, it comes down to the reason as to why it died.... so i guess if you ate...it, it would make things more "ok" and weird at the same time :P

the only time we ever vacumed a bug was when we had a grasshopper in our house, and we could not get close enough to catch it.... either that or i was too chicken to go up to it haha. yeah, i think i was too chicken... but i really did feel bad about it. still do, actually.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 12:43 AM
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My answer to bugs, higher life form or not...





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