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Old April 10th, 2010, 01:07 AM
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Unhappy Walnut and Roscoe are dead....

I don't have many details yet. It appears that someone poisoned them. Whatever killed them did it within a couple of hrs. Bheka got the least of whatever it was and is in stable condition at the emergency vet.

We let them outside in our backyard and then went out (please don't flame for this if you're against doing so, it's a moot point now, 2 of my dogs are gone, I feel guilty enough as is ), when we came back Roscoe and Walnut were on the ground convulsing, their tongues were purple and they were breathing very heavy and were paralyzed. We rushed them to the vet here in town (our normal vet is 45 min away) and they died within 10 mins of getting there.
Bheka was acting mostly normal but kind of shivering. Vet gave her fluids and she improved immediately.
I NEVER keep chemicals around my yard (don't even use them for gardening, I'm mostly organic), and I obviously never keep anything like rat poison around (even if I had a rodent problem I'm a live capture advocate, don't believe in making even pests suffer....). We searched the yard and didn't find any poisonous plants or anything either (plants do not generally kill that quickly anyway).
I know most of my neighbors and don't know anyone that would do anything like this. In fact we watch each others yards which is part of the reason I felt comfortable leaving them out. All of my neighbors have dogs and other pets.
But, the vets (the one in town, and the normal vet whose emergency clinic bheka is now at, who is a wonderful knowledgeable person), said that whatever it was had to of been a quick acting nerve toxin such as strychnine (but they didn't show exact symptoms for that) or some kind of rat poison.
Bheka tested a slight positive for ethylene glycol (antifreeze), but antifreeze even in large amounts generally kills within 12 hrs at soonest, and causes other symptoms they did not have. Either way, she's being treated for that just in case.
Roscoe tested positive for late stage kidney failure. When they looked at his stomach contents there was really nothing there, but we collected any vomit in the yard and anything else suspicious to be sent off to a lab. Walnut I'm not sure about since I wouldn't let anyone touch her, she was like my baby, I couldn't let someone cut her open . I had her since 6 weeks old and she was only 4 1/2. Roscoe was only 5. Bheka is only 8 months old but she's 91 lbs, so we think either she didn't get as much or her sheer weight saved her (roscoe was 20 lbs, Walnut 55).

So yeah, I'd appreciate comments, condolences, or whatever . If anyone has any ideas as to what could cause such symptoms, other than something like rat poison (I'd really rather NOT think someone poisoned them, because if I find out who it was...well...) I'd like to hear it. 2 of the dogs are gone, but at the least it could help with Bhekas treatment and from something like that happening again. There will be people watching and treating her for the next 48 hrs at least, and she's in good condition.
Bheka had a slightly elevated white blood cell count, but not really out of normal range, and slightly elevated phosphorous level. Her kidneys and liver tested just fine, thank god.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 02:42 AM
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Oh God, I am so very very sorry. This is just terrible.
((HUGS HUGS)) I can't imagine the pain u are going thru. I feel sick. Those poor sweet animals.

The only thing I was thinking of was antifreeze as I know it only takes a small amount to kill an animal.

You don't have any Yew trees around that they could of eaten some needles?

I will be saying prayers that Bheka will recover and be ok.

Debbie
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Old April 10th, 2010, 03:02 AM
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I read this with tears in my eyes. Those poor dogs. Such a terrible thing for you and your family to go through too. I dragged out a dog book to study and the only things I could see to cause convulsions and or paralysis were aspirin in large quantities,Chlorinated hydrocarbons,(gives a list of flea rinses for that), lead poisoning(paralysis mentioned), snail bait, insecticides, strychnine and 1080. Does anyone use 1080 where you are? It can kill in 2 to 12 hours and is used here to bait foxes. for Bheka.
I had a friend who lost her fox terrier from lead poisoning just because it had been climbing up on some old wet weatherboards off the house next door, which had been painted with lead paint. He'd come inside and lick his feet dry.
Oh, there are lots of poisonous plants too but I don't know what symptoms they cause. I did notice in the garden part of this forum that people were warned about certain plants when they said they grew them but lobelia was mentioned and nothing was said. It is very poisonous, my husband once lost a dairy cow after it ate lobelia. Oleander is another thing that I think can kill quickly, a friend had a mare die after she probably just picked up a leaf whilst grazing in their driveway.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 03:07 AM
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Oh my god, that is every owners worst nightmare .
I am so very, very sorry that this has happened to your family . I am glad that Bheka seems to be okay and major healing vibes going out to her .

Is it possible that some mushrooms have sprouted that they might have eaten? Some are very toxic and might cause the symptoms you described.

Again, I am so sorry .... my heart breaks for you and you will be in my thoughts and prayers .

Rest easy sweet Walnut and Roscoe, you will definately be missed .
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Old April 10th, 2010, 03:09 AM
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apparently arsenic can turn a tongue black, but I have found nothing on anything turning a tongue purple except a lack of oxygen.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 03:38 AM
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eating rhubarb leaves can cause convulsions.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 05:27 AM
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Thank you for your comments and condolences everyone

There aren't any poisonous plants in my yard that I could find (looked them all up and I'm very careful never to plant anything like that. And none that I could find would cause such sudden and painful death . Any that would don't grow in this region as far as I know. My yard isn't very big so it was easy to look around.) Also looked for mushrooms, and no none have been popping up yet. Also, Walnut was very unlikely to eat anything like that. Very picky eater and wouldn't eat a lot of people foods, much less odd plant matter (Roscoe would, but not her). The only thing I've ever found remotely poisonous in my yard is polk weed, which grows wild around here, but not has come in yet, and yet again, mostly causes stomach upset, not the same symptoms as a strong neurotoxin. No lead paint on outside or inside of my house, was inspected when we moved in, and again, much more prolonged symptoms except in VERY high quantities.

Antifreeze, from what the vet explained, would have to be in VERY large amount to cause death within 12 hrs, much less 2. And they also didn't have the exact symptoms (both vets have seen many cases of antifreeze poisoning and agreed it didn't fit). I don't even have antifreeze at my house anyway, so yet again would have had to been given to them. There are things like propylene glycol as preservatives in some stuff that can cause a false positive on an ethylene glycol test though, which could explain the slight positive that Bheka had.

As far as pesticides like flea killer and such that I would have in my house, all is locked up and none could have been gotten to. I also never use that kind of stuff in my yard. If they got pesticides it would have had to be given to them somehow.

Everything leads me to believe someone gave them something. I told my neighbors to keep a very close watch on their dogs, search their yards and keep an eye out for anyone or anything suspicious. Hopefully no one else has this happen to them . Neurotoxin is about the most painful way to die I can think of. The muscles seize up and there are very painful convulsions until death. Whoever did something like that is a very very sick psychopathic person.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 05:49 AM
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How absolutely horrible.
Sincerest condolences MBIE, and not that makes anything better or different, you are right on about anyone who would deliberately do this being a psychopath.....not a whit of conscience there.
for Bheka
for Walnut and Rosoe
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Old April 10th, 2010, 06:48 AM
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I pray that whoever did this is caught and is severely punished.

Speedy recovery for Bheka

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Old April 10th, 2010, 07:11 AM
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How horrible.

Have you asked your neighbours if they use rat poisen? They may have ingested dead mice or rats that have eaten it. I know it sounds unbelievable, but our last dog who was the pickiest eater in the world, would eat voles or mice that stray cats killed in the yard. Of course we always tried to check to make sure there were none out there when we discovered that he would eat them.

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Old April 10th, 2010, 07:26 AM
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You must be devastated. My heart breaks for you.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 07:50 AM
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I can't imagine how you must be feeling I am so very sorry for your loss
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Old April 10th, 2010, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by clm View Post
How horrible.

Have you asked your neighbours if they use rat poisen? They may have ingested dead mice or rats that have eaten it. I know it sounds unbelievable, but our last dog who was the pickiest eater in the world, would eat voles or mice that stray cats killed in the yard. Of course we always tried to check to make sure there were none out there when we discovered that he would eat them.

clm
Thanks again to everyone else that replied

None of the neighbors I talked to use it (since we all have animals), but there have been a few dead mice around the house lately and we thought about that last night. We assumed cats were just killing them and bringing them in the yard since there are lots of cats around here. I think it's unlikely that all 3 dogs got sick so quickly from this, but if I find any today I'm going to have them sent off just in case to be tested.
I'm pretty sure no one has actually been setting bait outside because I haven't seen any dead squirrels, but my husband mentioned that mice can wander pretty far, possibly out of someone's house before they died. If they wandered that far though I find it odd that they'd have enough poison in them to kill 2 dogs within a couple of hrs and get another sick though.

One of my neighbors I haven't talked to (mainly because I kind of suspect someone that goes to their house to be honest....) and I don't think they'd give me honest answers about anything anyway. I don't see them personally having done something, they have a couple of dogs and though they don't take great care of them they don't seem to be the type of people that would just outright poison something. The people that hang around their house though, I dunno....

But I don't wanna just go around accusing people unless I have some type of evidence.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 08:23 AM
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On a lighter note though, did you guys know the treatment for antifreeze poisoning is Everclear (190 proof alcohol)?

I found this out from the emergency vet last night. Since Bheka is being treated for it just in case, since she got a slight positive, she told us the treatment would make her seem kind of drunk. Well when we went to say goodbye to Bheka for the night we saw a bottle sitting on the counter and my husband goes "Oh my gosh, tell me that's not the treatment..." kind of laughing. And the vet goes "Well actually, yes..." and explained how it worked (you can look it up, it's pretty interesting). We were like "Well no wonder she'll be acting drunk, she IS drunk "

Liquor, what CAN'T it do, haha.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 08:28 AM
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MBIE,I am so very sorry

There are evil people out there,who would get a kick out of poisoning animals

Walnut,Roscoe beautiful pups
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Old April 10th, 2010, 08:30 AM
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Walnut

Roscoe

MBIE, I am truly sorry for your loss.

Bheka, is in my prayers for a speedy recovery. Please keep us posted on how she does.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 08:34 AM
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I'm so sorry MBIE . What a nightmare .

I'm just reaching here but, is there any animal, rodent, snake, insect, etc., that can be poisonous if eaten or if bit/stung by one? Like there are poisonous plants, can there be poisonous 'living' things in your area?

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Old April 10th, 2010, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
I'm so sorry MBIE . What a nightmare .

I'm just reaching here but, is there any animal, rodent, snake, insect, etc., that can be poisonous if eaten or if bit/stung by one? Like there are poisonous plants, can there be poisonous 'living' things in your area?

Walnut & Roscoe
None in this area are that toxic. In fact I don't think there are any snakes in the U.S. venomous enough to cause such a quick and horrible reaction. Even most of the exotic bugs and snakes aren't nearly that venomous or poisonous and at the least wouldn't be venomous enough to inject 2 healthy dogs and quickly kill them.
Also, there are no highly venomous exotics found around here because we are not far enough south for them to survive. This would be a valid concern somewhere like Texas or FL but not this far north.

Also, I'm into biology (specifically herpetology(reptiles), ichthyology (fish), and some entomology (insects)) and I can only think of a few scorpions, spiders and snakes around the WORLD that would cause such a reaction. None of them would be found around here. I looked the ones I couldn't think of up, and even the most toxic would be unlikely to be able to have enough venom to bite 2 dogs and kill both quickly. Certain poison dart frogs also come to mind, but none of the very highly toxic ones would ever be found here (other than in zoos possibly), they would never even be imported as pets. There are a few very toxic fish (such as the fugu (pufferfish) eaten in asia, which has tetrodotoxin), and obviously nothing like that was consumed.

In addition, we checked for bite marks just on the off chance and found none on any of the 3 dogs.

Last edited by MyBirdIsEvil; April 10th, 2010 at 08:46 AM.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 08:49 AM
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Ok, I should be done editing that last post, haha. Still a few mistakes that I can see, but hopefully none of you are hardcore biology researchers and won't notice....
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Old April 10th, 2010, 08:52 AM
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Oh how heartbreaking!! You must be beside yourself with such a turmoil of emotions. I hear you on what may occur if you find out who....I know what would occur here. Pray you find out what happened for your own peace of mind--this is the stuff of nightmares.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 08:57 AM
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I am so lost for words...MBIE and your hubby are such animal lovers...and having met Walnut, I am so sorry. Walnut welcomed Shasta last summer and gave her some happy times and for that I am truly thankful to your family. I don't know how you are coping with all this but know your family is in our hearts and we feel your pain.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shirley1011 View Post
I am so lost for words...MBIE and your hubby are such animal lovers...and having met Walnut, I am so sorry. Walnut welcomed Shasta last summer and gave her some happy times and for that I am truly thankful to your family. I don't know how you are coping with all this but know your family is in our hearts and we feel your pain.
Thank you.

Walnut was the most wonderful dog I've ever met, and everyone that met her loved her. The vet techs at our regular vet cried when they heard the news. They got very attached to her when she was up there for awhile being treated for her HGE last year. The whole family is very distraught, she was like our child and she loved anyone and almost any animal . When we'd take her out to places like the fair all the little kids would crowd around her and give her hugs and she loved it. She didn't have a mean bone in her body and thrived on attention from absolutely anyone. She was also one of the smartest dogs I've ever had the pleasure of being around.
I'm actually more distraught at the moment about the WAY she died rather than the fact that she's gone. Obviously I didn't want her to go so young, but the LAST thing I ever wanted was for her to go painfully, she didn't deserve that at all, nor did Roscoe, or does any animal

All I can say is the sick people that did this will get theirs some day, even if it's not from me. People like that really don't deserve to be called human.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 09:22 AM
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I wish there was a small Walnut tree I could plant over her grave. Doesn't appear to be any that stay smallish though.

Any other suggestions as to what kind of tree to plant? (30 ft tall at most)
Something flowering would be nice. And something without a massive root system since I don't have a huge yard and they might grow into the pipes in the ground, plus make it hard to plant other stuff. I was thinking maybe a wisteria (not a real tree but very beautiful). Also must be non toxic to animals obviously.

Either way I want to plant something. I don't care for grave stones, I want something living that will bloom every year and will be hardy.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 09:23 AM
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I am so sorry for your loss....Have you contacted the police and SPCA? I hope these turds that did this suffer in their next lives or burn in hell... to you, and again I am so sorry....
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Old April 10th, 2010, 09:24 AM
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What a nightmare, MBIE Thank God that Bheka didn't get as much!

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Old April 10th, 2010, 09:27 AM
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BTW, I'm not leaving Roscoe out, my mother in law is just very insistent that he be buried at her own house since he was partially her dog. She's going to pick his body up when they're done examining it. He was over there all the time and slept in bed with her every night (she lives alone and has 2 other dogs, but they are too big in her small bed. He was like her baby). I took him home every day while she was at work.
Her old dog just died a few weeks ago at 14 and now this, so obviously she's heartbroken.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaykeija View Post
I am so sorry for your loss....Have you contacted the police and SPCA? I hope these turds that did this suffer in their next lives or burn in hell... to you, and again I am so sorry....
I haven't done anything yet. We were at the emergency vet yesterday until about midnight. I will definitely be doing so. I also alerted the local message board of what happened.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 09:29 AM
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MBIE, I am so, so sorry. I hope your vet is able to find out the cause to ease your mind. It's hard enough to lose one baby much less two at the same time.
Walnut and Roscoe
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Old April 10th, 2010, 09:30 AM
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Is it possible they got into something that morning or inside the house before you even let them out? That could account for the seemingly short time frame.

Did you report this to the police? They may not necessarily be of any immediate help but if they ever come across a similar case in the future knowing of your incident would be helpful, plus having a police report filed at least could possibly help in the future.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Choochi View Post
Is it possible they got into something that morning or inside the house before you even let them out? That could account for the seemingly short time frame.

Did you report this to the police? They may not necessarily be of any immediate help but if they ever come across a similar case in the future knowing of your incident would be helpful, plus having a police report filed at least could possibly help in the future.
Nothing in my house for them to get into. I checked anyway and still found nothing. I leave Bheka in the livingroom to sleep at night and she's only 8 months old so I'm very careful. There are locks on all the cabinets and all meds are up very high or in closets (in any case, all meds have been accounted for). I also don't use any chemicals such as the blue toilet stuff.
Along with the dogs I currently have 11 cats (7 kittens) so I'm very cautious. The trash even has a lid and is locked in room they can't get to.
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