Cesar Milan vs Brad Pattison

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by bendyfoot

I agree. IMO there is no single "correct" way to train a dog or to address behavioural issues. You need to work with the individual needs and personalities of each animal. I have used some techniques with one of our dogs that I would not use with another, because it is neither needed nor would it be particularly effective. Anyone who thinks there is a "one size fits all" training approach should give their head a shake.

Amen to that. Thank you Bendyfoot (PS - nice to see you back).

[pattymac]

I agree, there is NO one way. Just like with people, some people need a soft touch other's need a bit of push to get them motivated. Then there's others where you pretty much have to run them into a wall to get through to them! Not that I know anyone like that. Seen a few horses like that though!!

I think alot of this boils down to not wanting to take the time to do it right. So much of what we do and see today is instant gratification. Push a button and tadah!! What do you mean sit down and actually read a book, take notes. Commit to 6 or 8 weeks of classes and then actually do the training at home OMG!! Then take the training to the next level. Ok I want more than just a pet from my dog. I have cats, I don't expect them to do much but even they're well behaved and come when they're called.

Sometimes training is frustrating...oh boy!! I tend to go ok that's not working, gotta go find something that does work. Whether it's changing a treat, collar, my signals or just saying ok we'll do something you know well and give that one a rest for a week or two and then try again.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by NikonF6

Both these guys use the application of pain to interrupt action they don't like, and both like to put the dog in situations that trigger a response so they can punish them. And yes, he does cause pain, or possibly injury. The lack of vocalization is not indicative. Dogs have been known to break legs during competition, suffer massive injuries during fights without any apparent discomfort. These situations would be comparable to Millan's marketing term "red zone." Strictly speaking he is using punishment to suppress behavior, problem is that it only works as you continue to punish and as long as the punisher is present because dogs associate it with the handler.

Millan's and Pattison's ignorance of wolves is important and should be addressed. They have taken what they wrongly believe is true about wolf social dynamics and directly applied it to dogs.

Millan has not educated himself a lot with modern wolf behavior or language. Pattison on the other hand is VERY well educated and has a lot of knowledge about wolf behavior. Part of his training is to actually bring his students to the Wolf Park in Indiana, which is an amazing experience in itself.
There is a huge difference in their education backgrounds, so it's unfair and completley untrue to say that they both have ignorance of wolf theory.

I have also never, EVER seen Ceaser inflict pain on an animal...and I'm not talking about the dog being 'quiet' while Ceaser innterupts unwanted behavior. There is a difference between 'touching' the dog to redirect the dogs focus, and hurting it. Using the example that a dog won't exhibit pain while in a dog fight doesn't hold any water with me because for one thing: a dog in a fight is usually extremley vocal as it is. I would love to see a video (actually I wouldn't) of an example where two dogs are fighting silently.
I have seen him use innteruption, and there is a huge difference. Anyone who says that innterupting a behavior is the same as inflicting pain, has no knowledge on the way redirective behavior training is carried out - or is doing it wrong. Period.

You seem to remind me of a certain banned user...funny how that works, hmm?

[luckypenny]

A wolf park imo is not indicative of how wolves live in their natural habitat (Murie 1944, Mech 1999, Grandin & Johnson 2009). As is Milan's "pack," wolves in captivity become a forced pack, forced by humans who put them there. In the wild, wolves don't live in packs, they live in families, usually consisting of dad, mom, and pups. This is one one of the biggest misconceptions people have of the behavior/lives of wolves.

Having said that, how Pattison's training methods, or Milan's for that matter, relate in any way with the natural behaviors of wolves, or even dogs in this case, is totally beyond me.

[marko]

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This thread will now be closed. Please PM me if you have any concerns.

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Marko
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