Cities mull forced neutering of pets & Runaway pit bull neutered by SPCA

[Choochi]

Originally Posted by erykah1310

The COE I signed for my TM's is pretty strict and much like what Choochi has described.
It would be wonderful if more enforcement went along with it, but the breeders who want to do things right are the ones signing. BYB dont give a hoot if they're in a breed club or not, they dont even really bother to worry themselves about registration half the time but instead will show copies of the parents papers which buyers are not educated enough to look ot see if parents are on non breeding or not.
Someone not related to dog/cat breeding would have to be enforcing said COE. Registries couldnt be bothered, they want their money. And breed clubs would never allow millers or byb in so their COE mean nothing to said people.
Great idea that everyone follow a COE, who would inforce? Government? Could they be bothered. If its not banning a breed it is clear that animals arent on the top of their priorities (here atleast)

Dear gawd I wouldn't want the government any where near this!! I don't have much faith in the registries, as I have heard so many stories of CKC breeders doing some very rotten things, being reported to the CKC, and the CKC simply doing a lip service to the investigation and then simply sending a renewal application and asking for another membership cheque. They are borderline bankrupt, and I think have showed where their interests lie when they opted to sign the lease on their pretty new building. The CKC cares about the CKC, and nothing else, make no mistake about it.

Breed clubs on the other hand still have a more personalized feel so to speak, and I think in general care more about the dogs of their breed. They are more hands on and are usually ran by people still heavily involved in the breed or who at least were at one point.

No, something like this would not solve the issue of the mills, the bybs, and the people who do not research and go out and buy a puppy the day after they had a thought they would like to have one because they saw a cute commercial on tv. To some people, a pet will always be just like another piece of furniture and the decision to get one will be taken just as lightly as buying another coffee mug. You will never change that. However.. drinking and driving has become socially unacceptable over time, which has put social pressure on people not to do it, even if they personally don't think it's a big deal.

If social norm in the breeder industry with the help of some consequences would change to better reflect ethical practices, even with market forces those new standards could begin to affect the byb's. Right now, there are many people who see reputable breeders as obnoxious and too much work to deal with then the easy breezy, here's my money thanks for the puppy transaction that byb's offer. If the reputable breeders stood for something much better, had a solid COE to obide by and actually stuck to it, their breed clubs could easilly take up a marketing campgain that from a pure market point of view would tell consumers: puppies from our members cost the same, and come with XYZ guarantees you couldn't dream about from a non-member (byb) breeder. That will never happen right now because breed clubs knows that not all members behave up to ethical par and wouldn't want to promote them all and possibly be responsible when something goes wrong.

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by erykah1310

The COE I signed for my TM's is pretty strict and much like what Choochi has described.
It would be wonderful if more enforcement went along with it, but the breeders who want to do things right are the ones signing. BYB dont give a hoot if they're in a breed club or not, they dont even really bother to worry themselves about registration half the time but instead will show copies of the parents papers which buyers are not educated enough to look ot see if parents are on non breeding or not.
Someone not related to dog/cat breeding would have to be enforcing said COE. Registries couldnt be bothered, they want their money. And breed clubs would never allow millers or byb in so their COE mean nothing to said people.
Great idea that everyone follow a COE, who would inforce? Government? Could they be bothered. If its not banning a breed it is clear that animals arent on the top of their priorities (here atleast)

Here, for you to be a member of the Victorian Canine Council, and to be able to register dogs, you must agree (and sign) to abide by their rules and regulations AND the Code of Ethics. This is policed strictly and is a good little money earner for the Canine Councils, as well as making breeders behave, because with each misdemeanor they get a worse fine and/or period of suspension. (Why wouldn't the Govt. like that money ?) Doesn't work for the byb or puppy farmer but at least our VCA members are seen to be doing the right thing. Oh, you get fined too if you don't register every pup, and we are not allowed to breed specifically for the pet market. Reputable breeders are quick to point out to the Council who might be doing the wrong thing.

[Chris21711]

Funny how this thread "s-t-r-a-y-e-d" into a thread all about breeding practices etc.,

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Chris21711

Funny how this thread "s-t-r-a-y-e-d" into a thread all about breeding practices etc.,

Nice play on words mf. But you are oh so right.

[erykah1310]

yeah it has strayed quite a bit, but is remaining quite civil suprisingly

[14+kitties]

In all due respect, I fail to see how monitoring the "reputable breeders" is going to help an issue that is caused by bybs, millers and "breeders" who are only in it for a fast buck. IMO if you breed the dog be responsible for the dog for it's lifetime. It doesn't matter what breed - take it back if things don't work out.

I think now we should be trying to figure out a way to come together as a whole to work to get laws changed in Canada. The guys that sit on their ivory thrones and never see the horrific conditions these poor puppymill dogs have to endure need to join us in the real world long enough to change those laws. They need to start earning the tax money they insist they need. Heaven knows we pay enough of it. I wonder what would happen if we refused to pay those taxes until the laws were changed?

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by Chris21711

Funny how this thread "s-t-r-a-y-e-d" into a thread all about breeding practices etc.,

good one, chris

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

In all due respect, I fail to see how monitoring the "reputable breeders" is going to help an issue that is caused by bybs, millers and "breeders" who are only in it for a fast buck. IMO if you breed the dog be responsible for the dog for it's lifetime. It doesn't matter what breed - take it back if things don't work out.

It is not going to 14+K, but what it will do is weed out the breeders that are umbrella'd by the CKC. The CKC does not monitor the breeders at this time very well, but it may push them into doing so.

My point in all this (though we have really strayed away from the main topic) if reputable breeders would pitch in and help those in shelters, we would be in a better situation in regards to rescues taking on the non breeds. The purebreds are almost ALWAYS the first pick to go which leaves behind the mutts (in particular the black dog) which are at risk of being destroyed.

If the breeders took on a more active roll in turning in bad breeders, helping with the rescues more actively and start monitoring the dogs and the breeders breeding them, we may have less in the system.

One would think that breeders trying to ensure that their breed is well represented...they would take on a more active part to provide solutions in shutting down BYBs and other clandestine places.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by BenMax

One would think that breeders trying to ensure that their breed is well represented...they would take on a more active part to provide solutions in shutting down BYBs and other clandestine places.

One would think. Can't see it happening. Unfortunately we have already seen lots of signs that once dogs are sold they remain sold. Courtrooms are filled with people suing breeders because their puppies got sick shortly after they bought them and breeders refusing to pay up.
The problem will go on.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

One would think. Can't see it happening. Unfortunately we have already seen lots of signs that once dogs are sold they remain sold. Courtrooms are filled with people suing breeders because their puppies got sick shortly after they bought them and breeders refusing to pay up.
The problem will go on.

Maybe for now 14+K, but the movement against petstores, byb's and mills is getting bigger. It is only going to take one special person who is very intelligent, very driven and very determined to carry this all the way home. A leader and spokesperson is needed and there is someone out there, somewhere who will take over this campaign.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by BenMax

Maybe for now 14+K, but the movement against petstores, byb's and mills is getting bigger. It is only going to take one special person who is very intelligent, very driven and very determined to carry this all the way home. A leader and spokesperson is needed and there is someone out there, somewhere who will take over this campaign.

Oprah's giving up her day job!!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Yes, you are right. Things are slowly turning around. Let's hope it speeds up. Maybe we could get Ellen to do a continuing piece on her show about not buying from millers, pet stores, etc.

[erykah1310]

Originally Posted by BenMax

if reputable breeders would pitch in and help those in shelters, we would be in a better situation in regards to rescues taking on the non breeds. The purebreds are almost ALWAYS the first pick to go which leaves behind the mutts (in particular the black dog) which are at risk of being destroyed.

If the breeders took on a more active roll in turning in bad breeders, helping with the rescues more actively and start monitoring the dogs and the breeders breeding them, we may have less in the system.

My first thought when I read that first paragraph was "Gah, most of us do already" but then I thought a second, I have spoken to and dealt with many breeders over the years, even if just for inquiries on what they're breeding ect. And come to think of it, my one mentor only has a yard full of her dogs, retired and current breeding ones. I dont forsee her taking in any rescue really, but would take back her pups fast.
Another of my mentors, same situation.
I think the sad thing for many (not all) breeders is they fill up on available space for breeding dogs only.
Here, I will always have a spot open for a rescue, if one of mine passes on, that spot will not be filled with a TM but more for someone in need (be it a TM then that would be who came but breed or mix doesnt matter)

As for the second paragraph, many of us do turn in bad breeders, but really CKC doesnt seem to care as long as said breeder is paying their dues, and like said either earlier in this thread or another one, when we do call places like the SPCA on the miller on the next road, nothing happens, they have their basic needs met, food and shelter.
So who else do we report to? Until our province/ COUNTRY gets tougher on what is acceptable and what is not everyones hands are tied.

I could explain and educate to those millers till the cows I dont have came home and they would never see the moral or ethical side of why they are creating a problem, all people like them see is the dollar signs, they're not just going to stop pumping out these little dogs because of shelters, euth rates, or anything because it has been rewarding for them to produce like this.
Until people stop purchasing from them or our government places animals a little higher in importance and protects them more, these people will not stop.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by erykah1310

My first thought when I read that first paragraph was "Gah, most of us do already" but then I thought a second, I have spoken to and dealt with many breeders over the years, even if just for inquiries on what they're breeding ect. And come to think of it, my one mentor only has a yard full of her dogs, retired and current breeding ones. I dont forsee her taking in any rescue really, but would take back her pups fast.
Another of my mentors, same situation.
I think the sad thing for many (not all) breeders is they fill up on available space for breeding dogs only.
Here, I will always have a spot open for a rescue, if one of mine passes on, that spot will not be filled with a TM but more for someone in need (be it a TM then that would be who came but breed or mix doesnt matter)

As I said before - kudos to you if you do that. Unfortunately we have proof right in this thread that not all breeders do and, so to speak, right from the horses' mouth. Read back and you will find it I'm sure.
Maybe part of the answer to your breeders' spaces filling up would be to not breed as much or as many. Then you would not have so many breeding dogs you can't bring in any rescues you may have to. Basically what I am suggesting is to leave that space, or two, for unforeseen incidents. As you yourself said - if you are breeding quality dogs you should not have to take any back for health reasons. Or words to that effect.

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

As I said before - kudos to you if you do that. Unfortunately we have proof right in this thread that not all breeders do and, so to speak, right from the horses' mouth. Read back and you will find it I'm sure.

Erykah1310 wrote
Here, I will always have a spot open for a rescue, if one of mine passes on, that spot will not be filled with a TM but more for someone in need (be it a TM then that would be who came but breed or mix doesnt matter)

The relevant words being IF ONE OF MINE PASSES ON, so obviously she has a limit to what she can do too. Same goes for you, 14+, you were begging for food coupons and wanting your cattery registered and funded so you do know darn well that no-one's money can stretch as far as they'd like it to. Not every ordinary person could expect such help.

Maybe part of the answer to your breeders' spaces filling up would be to not breed as much or as many.

Can you cast aspersions without even knowing how many pups people breed over what period of time, or how many need rescuing, how good a job breeders might make of finding the right homes,how financially capable they are of taking in extra dogs?

Then you would not have so many breeding dogs you can't bring in any rescues you may have to.

Why do they HAVE TO? They are looking after their dogs, not asking you to, and as it's been pointed out, the problem with all these unwanted dogs is due to byb's and puppy farmers, so shouldn't they be made to rescue their dogs too? Wanting to penalise reputable breeders for something they haven't done is not going to stop the byb and puppy farmer. If your energy went into figuring out how to stop the puppy farmers it'd be wiser.

Basically what I am suggesting is to leave that space, or two, for unforeseen incidents. As you yourself said - if you are breeding quality dogs you should not have to take any back for health reasons. Or words to that effect.

I defy any breeder to breed THE perfect litter, especially when a breed is as young as my two are, and the important thing is that the breeder is(or should be) willing to take any back that owners aren't happy with, isn't it? Brings to mind that saying ' charity begins at home.'

I think what you need there, as someone pointed out, is an outspoken leader who can inspire people to do the right thing and get Government on side. Here it was Dr Hugh Wirth, dare I say "My hero" . Last I heard he was head man in the RSPCA, a wonderful caring man, passionate about animals and very outspoken. The public love him.

[erykah1310]

Really off topic... do you have any Himalayan or siameseish kitties 14+? I still have a kitty "spot" available since Booger found his home

[GateKeeper]

This thread has gone far off the original topic, while it's great to see healthy polite debate it is turning into a bash thread. Can we politely get back to the topic at hand please?

If you have an issue with another member or a specific post there is the Ignore Button and the Private Message system for you to use.

If you know what you are writing is going to be deleted, don't post it, send a private message.

GateKeeper

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by erykah1310

Really off topic... do you have any Himalayan or siameseish kitties 14+? I still have a kitty "spot" available since Booger found his home

In all due respect there are plenty of shelters in your area that will have lots of kitties that need help. There are no Himmies or Siamese here. Mine are more the common garden variety. They are the ones that get thrown out like yesterday's garbage more so than pure breds.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

In all due respect there are plenty of shelters in your area that will have lots of kitties that need help. There are no Himmies or Siamese here. Mine are more the common garden variety. They are the ones that get thrown out like yesterday's garbage more so than pure breds.

14+K is correct..the purebreds have purebred rescues to take. It's the black and black and white that really have no chance of survival. There are so many you can help in shelters and high kill pounds.

As for this thread itself, we have collectively learned alot about the issue at hand, how not cut and dry it is or isn't and about breeders.
BDMLuver has direct contact with this shelter and is the one that can provide direct insight. I think she sumed it up well.

I support what they are doing, and I hope that more municipalities take on this action regardless if an animal is a purebred or not. I stand by this belief and support them 100%.

[14+kitties]

Same goes for you, 14+, you were begging for food coupons and wanting your cattery registered and funded so you do know darn well that no-one's money can stretch as far as they'd like it to. Not every ordinary person could expect such help.

Let's try this again. I do not believe what I did was "begging". What I suggested was that if anyone had coupons they were not using that they pass them on to other members who could use them. NOT just for me. Where is the begging?
Also - registering is a lot different than getting funding. Registering is something you do when you want to register a business - at least in Ontario. That means you pay to have your business under the name of your choice. It is not cheap. There is no funding available for private cat shelters here. Any funding that my sanctuary would get would come from my direct efforts. That would mean garage sales, bake sales, dinners, etc to help raise money and make people aware of the problem. Hardly funding.
Last thing - A "Cattery" is defined as either a boarding facility or a breeding facility. I do neither. Boarding suggests I would be getting paid for keeping these cats. I do not. Breeding - that is the last thing I would be doing when there are so many dying. My paycheque every single week of the year goes directly to my cats. I am just about tapped out as far as credit. What would you suggest I do?

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by BenMax

14+K is correct..the purebreds have purebred rescues to take. It's the black and black and white that really have no chance of survival. There are so many you can help in shelters and high kill pounds.

I know purebred cats are at a shelter for only a matter of days then they find a home.

As for this thread itself, we have collectively learned alot about the issue at hand, how not cut and dry it is or isn't and about breeders.
BDMLuver has direct contact with this shelter and is the one that can provide direct insight. I think she sumed it up well.

I support what they are doing, and I hope that more municipalities take on this action regardless if an animal is a purebred or not. I stand by this belief and support them 100%.

I also support this law. I don`t believe the `top breeding stock`dogs will end up in the shelter, more those who are owned by careless owners, or those who are waiting for their dog to turn a certain age before neutering.

It would be interesting to see the stats on how many of the dogs that the shelter takes in as strays are not altered.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

so obviously she has a limit to what she can do too. Same goes for you, 14+, you were begging for food coupons and wanting your cattery registered and funded so you do know darn well that no-one's money can stretch as far as they'd like it to. Not every ordinary person could expect such help.

She doesn`t have a cattery, she provides shelter, food and vet care for cats who have been thrown out like garbage. She is an angel to all the strays in her area. I don`t recall her `begging` for anything and I pretty much read every one of her posts. We, on this forum, help out as this is a very close knit `community` and it is was close knit communities do for each other. What she does is the ultimate in selflessness.

[Winston]

Same goes for you, 14+, you were begging for food coupons and wanting your cattery registered and funded so you do know darn well that no-one's money can stretch as far as they'd like it to.

GoldFields this is a totally unacceptable comment and if I were on the receiving end I would feel pretty bad!

The issue above came to light from many other members here as well! so to center one member out is completely ignorant. Thats just my I bet you would be really surprised to see just how many of us cut coupons! so what? if I can save money why not? or if 14+ or anyone else can benefit from a free bag of food here and there why not?

I just got 2 bags of free cat food for my mother who is on a pension and finds it very tough to make it sometimes? so anyone who wants to say something to me about coupons go right ahead! I will laugh right back at ya!

You know my mom volunteers at a food bank and she tells me how heartbreaking it is for her to have many folks ask for cat or dog food because they cant afford to buyt it? isnt that sad! people do what they have to do to take care of their pets and I think its unfair for any of us to be judges of one another!

I did want to say how impressed I am with this thread for the most part! I learned some things I never knew. I cannot comment because I really dont know enough to comment.

This thread stayed reasonably civil for the most part anyway, and now I think its lots its purpose

Cindy

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by Winston

Same goes for you, 14+, you were begging for food coupons and wanting your cattery registered and funded so you do know darn well that no-one's money can stretch as far as they'd like it to.

GoldFields this is a totally unacceptable comment and if I were on the receiving end I would feel pretty bad!

The issue above came to light from many other members here as well! so to center one member out is completely ignorant. Thats just my I bet you would be really surprised to see just how many of us cut coupons! so what? if I can save money why not? or if 14+ or anyone else can benefit from a free bag of food here and there why not?

I just got 2 bags of free cat food for my mother who is on a pension and finds it very tough to make it sometimes? so anyone who wants to say something to me about coupons go right ahead! I will laugh right back at ya!

You know my mom volunteers at a food bank and she tells me how heartbreaking it is for her to have many folks ask for cat or dog food because they cant afford to buyt it? isnt that sad! people do what they have to do to take care of their pets and I think its unfair for any of us to be judges of one another!

I did want to say how impressed I am with this thread for the most part! I learned some things I never knew. I cannot comment because I really dont know enough to comment.

This thread stayed reasonably civil for the most part anyway, and now I think its lots its purpose

Cindy

Well said.

[Blackbear]

This thread has run its course and will now be closed.