Lack of Scientific Backing for Raw Diets

[LittleMonster]

Hello everyone,

I am relatively new to this board, and am interested in the raw diet. My dog has gotten an occasional raw pieces of food as treats, but never as a meal.

I wanted to do some research, but sadly I have found no scientific facts that back up any raw diets. All I was able to find was the same old arguments both for and against raw.

So, can anyone point me in direction of some research that is done on raw diets? For example, it would be nice to know exactly how "balanced" a varied raw diet is, or, what the true risk of pathogens are in irradiated raw food?

[pitgrrl]

Here's the trouble, who funds studies? Primarily dog food companies, which don't stand to make any money off looking at raw diets, so unfortunately, you may no find what you're looking for.

There are vets who have seen, through their own experience, the benefits of raw and/or homemade diets (and a few who have written books), and there is a ton of anecdotal evidence, but at a certain point it comes down to taking the plunge and seeing for yourself or not.

I think it would be amazing if there was long term study of raw fed dogs, but who's going to cough up the cash?

[kathryn]

I only feed raw as a treat... but just sort of common sense looking at the whole raw thing is that it's meat... and animals eat meat... so I would imagine that works good?

I personally feel a raw diet should not just consist of meat. Added vitamins and minerals with fruits and veggies are what I feel is appropriate for a cat or dog to eat.

I like Aunt Jeni's raw foods
http://www.auntjeni.com/


The risks of nasty germs from raw stuff is low when you buy the good stuff. Aunt Jeni's is all regulated and stuff. I trust them to give me a high quality product. You are a better chance of poisoning your pet with grocery store kibble then with raw (in my opinion and observances).

i work at a pet supply store and we sell raw and all kinds of natural kibbles and canned foods. Alot of people swear by raw. My boss/owner of the store thinks it's all good stuff too. He's been in the healthy pet food business for over 40 years so I'm pretty sure whatever he says is right

[pitgrrl]

Originally Posted by kathryn

I personally feel a raw diet should not just consist of meat. Added vitamins and minerals with fruits and veggies are what I feel is appropriate for a cat or dog to eat.

Just so it's clear, a diet consisting of just meat would in no way be appropriate to feed. Any raw diet should consist of a variety of muscle meats, organs, and bone in proper ratios. Veggies, fruits, etc. are debatable, but it's important to that those basics be included whether one is feeding prey model raw, a BARF diet, pre-made raw, etc.

[clm]

I wonder if some of the vetrinary colleges have done studies on raw diets. That might be worth looking into.

Cindy

[woof99]

I always say that not all dogs are created equal, some dogs do amazing on raw, some do better on good quality canned food, some do better on good quality kibble... Just like people dogs have different backgrounds, some were domesticated 10,000 years ago, some only a few 100 years and there will be a difference in how they respond to the different type of diets.
I work in a clinic as a tech and dogs are my life.
I have done raw, kibble, canned... and have found that it really depends on the individual pet and client.
I currently have a 17 year old cat, a 14.5 year old GSD mix and a 12 year old Border Collie. Everyone is doing well and are very healthy.

I think the tough issue as to is one better than another is that dogs will live to be around the same age when fed quality kibble vs raw.
If dogs fed raw lived significantly longer, then vets would pay attention, but they do not. They do live longer than pets on Kibbles and Bit and Old Roy but people that feed those diets do not really care I think.

My pets are all on Medi-Cal/Royal Canin diets.
I get comments daily at local dog park on how amazing my dogs look, their coat quality, their teeth, their activity level...
I switched to raw several years ago when I had a cat block on Hill's diet several times. However one of my dogs refused to touch it, which is weird I know!! So I researched through fellow vet clinic staff members, basically found out what the oldest pets seemed to be eating and Medi-Cal pets seem to live much longer than others, the vets believe it is because of the high levels of antioxydants that help to prevent cancer, meat meals that have the highest bioavailability and grains are ground to 0.5mm diameter which increases the digestibility of grains to upwards of 80%.

I know many of you are medi-Cal haters but after visiting their new plant in Guelph, seeing the quality control that goes into having every bag made and most importantly seeing how amazing my lovely pets are doing I am convinced.

That being said, some dogs/cats do not do as well on Medi-Cal and seem to do better on other diets... I would love for the raw food makers to have studies done, I know we would love to have more info for clients.

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by LittleMonster

I wanted to do some research, but sadly I have found no scientific facts that back up any raw diets.

How about the ultimate scientific fact, which is that cats and dogs survived and thrived eating raw meat over millions of years. There are no Hibachis in nature.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by sugarcatmom

How about the ultimate scientific fact, which is that cats and dogs survived and thrived eating raw meat over millions of years. There are no Hibachis in nature.

I know cats are made to have a raw meat diet, just have to look at the fact that they need taurine which is destroyed when cooking meat. Look at their digestive systems, very short and slightly acidic to keep bacterial growth to a minimum, their teeth are made for chewing bones and pulling meat. Also, they are very inefficient drinkers and are meant to get their water with their meat, cooking evaporates the water.

[AmericanBullMom]

Originally Posted by sugarcatmom

How about the ultimate scientific fact, which is that cats and dogs survived and thrived eating raw meat over millions of years. There are no Hibachis in nature.

Lmao, I always say the same thing when people ask me "Well what about bacteria?"
"You dont see Wolves cooking their meat over a camp fire do you?"

Welcome to the forum!

Dogs and cats are MEANT to be omnivores. Wolves eat the stomach contents of the prey they kill, and so they do get some plant material.

When doing Raw, it might be best to start with one of the pre-made raw foods, and read all the ingredients in it. Get a feel for how much your dog needs to stay a healthy weight. Going raw isnt A LOT of work, but you do have to devote the time to make sure your dogs is getting the variety of meat that it needs.

Vets want you to buy dry kibble, they make money from it. My vet told me to put Patrón on SCIENCE DIET!

Hope you find all that you're looking for!

[kathryn]

Originally Posted by pitgrrl

Just so it's clear, a diet consisting of just meat would in no way be appropriate to feed. Any raw diet should consist of a variety of muscle meats, organs, and bone in proper ratios. Veggies, fruits, etc. are debatable, but it's important to that those basics be included whether one is feeding prey model raw, a BARF diet, pre-made raw, etc.

Some people actually don't know this! When people come into where I work and ask about raw they don't understand it one bit. They think they just go to the supermarket and buy a steak and throw it to the dog

[Jim Hall]

Some people actually don't know this! When people come into where I work and ask about raw they don't understand it one bit. They think they just go to the supermarket and buy a steak and throw it to the dog
__________________
yumm

[Blackdog22]

I think raw is great as long as you research heavily and take serious precautions in preperation.
My pup was weaned onto raw and as far as I know many of his siblings are still thriving on it. My boy eats Orijen, I find it to be the closest dry food to raw on the market....that is of course my personal opinion and I cannot back it up with fact (well I probably can, but Im lazy )

I chose not to feed raw due to a bad experience with it.
Years ago I attempted to feed my female raw. Everything was fine for the first little while until one fateful afternoon. I put down her food as usual and walked away, for some reason I lost track of time and didnt return to the dish for 20 minutes. As a rule I would throw away any food not eaten within 10 minutes. Anyway, I was too late. The food had been sitting out for too long (only by a few minutes too!) and my young dog had eaten it.

Later that night she began having symptoms that seemed to mimic parvovirus though they were mild(Im talking about the more passive symptoms, like lethargia and deppression), no need to rush to the vet.

The next morning the situation went from bad to critical, we rushed her to the vet. She was so very weak......on the way to the clinic she urinated on herself, too weak to even care. She was vomitting at a horrible rate and had projectile diarrhea, laced with blood. The vet ran tests for parvo as soon as we got to the clinic and it was soon determind parvo was not the cause. To make a long story short, she had a Gastric Enteritis. The exact cause is not known however it is speculated that it was indeed caused by the food.

She is 100% fine now and was back to herself after a less then a week of being home but while it was happening, it was the most horrific thing that has ever happened to me. I thought she was a goner for sure. I cannot imagine being responsible for my dogs death because of negligence!


That being said, it was not the BARF's fault, it was entirely my own.
But perhaps if you are a forgetful person like myself, a premium quality kibble with supplements would suit you best.

I just thought I would share my experience, in case other like me(forgetful folk) were considering BARF. I think a persons realistic capabilities are often overlooked when dealing with the wellbeing of loved ones.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by Blackdog22

That being said, it was not the BARF's fault, it was entirely my own.
But perhaps if you are a forgetful person like myself, a premium quality kibble with supplements would suit you best.

There is no known cause of Gastro Enteritis, could be virus, bacterial, or parasite so don't be too hard on yourself, may not have had anything to do with the raw diet and how long it was left out for. You did do the right thing to take your dog to the vet right away.

[luckypenny]

Because of lack of scientific info, I did extensively read up on it before I decided to switch my dogs over to raw. And that included all the pros and cons.

What was the deciding factor that convinced me? It wasn't any of the research I did on my own; it was an experience. One of our dogs never did well on kibble, whether it was vet prescribed or one of the high quality brands. We tried just about everything but he always had diarrhea, vomiting and could never put on much needed weight. After many tests, we even tried medications which would only work while he was taking them and the diarrhea/vomiting returned shortly afterwords. Then, two summers ago, we went camping for three weeks. He did his own hunting . For the first time in almost a year, perfectly formed stools, no diarrhea/vomiting, and he finally started to gain weight.

All three have now been fed raw for 1 1/2 years and have had no health issues since.

[pitgrrl]

Originally Posted by woof99

I think the tough issue as to is one better than another is that dogs will live to be around the same age when fed quality kibble vs raw.
If dogs fed raw lived significantly longer, then vets would pay attention, but they do not.

... I would love for the raw food makers to have studies done, I know we would love to have more info for clients.

I think framing the question as 'what diet will make a dog live longest' is kind of flawed. I don't think a raw diet is a magical anti-aging formula which will make my dogs live to be 110, nor do I think feeding kibble, of any kind is likely to result in my dogs dieing at age 4. Clearly dogs are adaptable creatures and can survive a long time on diets as bad as Ol' Roy.

The issue, to me and I'd guess a lot of people who have chosen to go with raw or homecooked diets, is not my dogs surviving, it's a question of thriving. They may very well die at a totally average age, their less than stellar genetic material will likely have an effect on how long their lives are, but for however long they're around I want them to be in the best shape possible.

Originally Posted by luckypenny

Because of lack of scientific info, I did extensively read up on it before I decided to switch my dogs over to raw. And that included all the pros and cons.

I think this brings up an important point. Feeding raw is not free of risks, but then neither is feeding a kibble diet. I think it comes down to an individual weighing of risk vs. benefit. In cases like LP described, and my own, feeding kibble means having an unwell dog most of the time, so perhaps the choice is easier than for a dog who genuinely does quite well of a decent quality kibble.

[TulipRoxy]

Originally Posted by clm

I wonder if some of the vetrinary colleges have done studies on raw diets. That might be worth looking into.

Cindy

Unfortunately I doubt any vet college would ever do a study on raw as almost all of them are funded by pet food companies. The only study I have ever seen on raw is one that proved that dogs fed raw shed more bacteria in their feces than those fed kibble.

I would love to see a study done on raw feeding, it would be nice to have some scientific evidence to back up belief with.

The bottom line is people will do what works for them. My pets are all looking better than they ever have, but time will tell I guess. There are some kibble diets out there that dogs do well on. And provided you brush their teeth they'll probably live a long time. To each his own.

[TulipRoxy]

Originally Posted by Jim Hall

Some people actually don't know this! When people come into where I work and ask about raw they don't understand it one bit. They think they just go to the supermarket and buy a steak and throw it to the dog
__________________
yumm

That's scary! I've actually seen recipes online that fail to mention that the dog needs to get bones or a calcium supplement. What if someone followed that? Then everyone else who feeds raw or homemade gets a bad rap because one person didn't research properly! There is so much misinformation out there, no wonder vets are so against raw!

[rhartjr]

Originally Posted by TulipRoxy

There is so much misinformation out there, no wonder vets are so against raw!

Yeah, I've recently been having an e-mail discussion with my vet on nutrition and diets lately. She's a great vet but is vehemently opposed to raw.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by TulipRoxy

That's scary! I've actually seen recipes online that fail to mention that the dog needs to get bones or a calcium supplement. What if someone followed that? Then everyone else who feeds raw or homemade gets a bad rap because one person didn't research properly! There is so much misinformation out there, no wonder vets are so against raw!

You are right about that, plus some people don't practise good hygine when dealing with raw meat. I was talking to a vet that said for some dogs, too much fat can cause pancreatitis very easily, so if you don't have the correct proportions, it can be dangerous to your dog.

You know what would be nice, is if vets, instead of simply stating raw shouldn't be fed, should do up pamphlets of proper recipes and hygene to train people properly.

[woof99]

Medi-Cal used to offer homemade recipes and even gave away to clinics free of charge vitamin and mineral premix... for those pets that didn't do well on their diet. However after the melamine recall, they stopped offering it. They had clients that were making up their own recipes using the premix, then pets were coming in sufering from hypercalcemia, which is quite dangerous... bottom line people weren't following the recipes and so Medi-Cal discontinued it. It sucked, they had been offering it for free for over 20 years then because of a few stupid idiots that didn't follow the recipe, they had to discontinue it. I imagine they were told to do so by their lawyer.

In the meantime there are veterinarian nutritionists that people can get a consult with and for a charge they will make up a homemade recipe based on the ideal needs of the individual pet. This is were we send clients that want to do homemade. petdiets.com I believe is the site. There is also Dr Beltran in Ottawa at the Blair Animal hospital. I have never met him but clients drive 2 hours from MOntreal to see him and they adore him, he is a holistic vet.

[TulipRoxy]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

You are right about that, plus some people don't practise good hygine when dealing with raw meat. I was talking to a vet that said for some dogs, too much fat can cause pancreatitis very easily, so if you don't have the correct proportions, it can be dangerous to your dog.

You know what would be nice, is if vets, instead of simply stating raw shouldn't be fed, should do up pamphlets of proper recipes and hygene to train people properly.

Yeah that would be nice. But vet's are so poorly educated on it to begin with that they wouldn't promote it. Besides it doesn't benefit them in any way monetarily. Even if a vet is pro-raw, which are few and far between, time is money, and spending time with a client educating them about feeding a diet when he won't see any of the profits is pointless. Just to demonstrate the power of pet food companies we recently had a speaker from Purina come in to talk to our class who went on for 2 hours about how corn and by-products were actually excellent protein and carb sources, and she was even kind enough to offer everyone a laminated fancy "Dangers of Raw Food Diets" poster.

I did a project on raw food diets, and when I talked to my teacher, who is a vet about it, she agreed that some dogs do do very well on the diet, and that it does clean their teeth. But she said that vets can't reccomend the diet because of liability issues. If your dog chokes on a bone or your child contracts E.coli from exposure to feces the client could sue the vet for reccomending the diet in the first place. I can see her point, but at the same time this doesnt stop the vets from feeding dogfood that has been known to cause kidney damage and death. Sort of a double standard, dontcha think?

[erykah1310]

Originally Posted by LittleMonster

For example, it would be nice to know exactly how "balanced" a varied raw diet is, or, what the true risk of pathogens are in irradiated raw food?

This "balanced" concern everyone has for animal foods drive me insane honestly.
I mean, NO person eats a completely balanced diet day in and day out their entire lives, no wolf, coyote, cougar, elk, buffalo ect ect ect does this either.

I do not understand when it comes to dog and cat food we feel it must be perfectly balanced EVERY SINGLE MEAL. Some days here with raw feeding the dogs may be getting more meat than offal, or more bone than meat ( by ratio) but the next day it may just "balance" itself out by getting more of the one thing that was lacking.

When we feed raw full time ( ie, fall, winter spring months) the dogs do not get any vegetables or fruits. And in 3 years or so of feeding this way there has never been a problem with it.
I don't believe that everyone should feed prey model like we do here, but its just not right to be stating that all dogs NEED this in their diet. Yes I feed tripe here and there and in a sense they are getting their "veggies" this way ( grass) but atleast it's far more natural ways of getting it than forcing them to eat apples or potatoes with their meals.

Raw is amazing once you have a comfort level with it and the confidence and research to have faith and knowledge in what you are doing. I hope to one day be a 100% raw feeding household, the difference I see in my dogs after taking the plunge and trying it out is all the research evidence that I need.

HOWEVER, I do have one dog who does not do well on any grain free diet He's our "freak of nature" so to speak. It doesn't matter if its kibble raw or cooked, that boy needs his grains for some reason. He doesn't get ill with out them, but I feel he preforms at his best, looks his best and has the greatest energy with grain in his diet.
Trial and error, thats the only way to know what works for your dog and what doesn't.

[totallyhip]

I agree with someone who said the key is doing the research.
Do tons of research and ask people for advice who feed it.

We feed all 3 of our dogs raw and they are thriving on it! We initially started b/c Luke had head tremors about 20 mins. after eating kibble. No vet could give us a proper explaination for it. I researched the tremors and someone suggested raw diet. So we figured why not? It actually costed less than the high end kibble we were feeding. He hasn't had a head tremor since. Before we switched he was also going to the vet 2 or 3 times a months for something or another. He hasn't had a vet visit since. We take him in for a yearly check up and the vet gives him !!! We have a great vet who supports the diet. Personally I agree too with the other person that said you are taking risks no matter what you feed.

We never leave our dogs unattended to eat by themselves. Even if we fed kibble or just meat. Sometimes our dogs gulp so fast. But we always sit with them and watch them eat. They have never choked on a bone.

It takes us longer to prepare it but its worth it to us. We just take precautions with raw meat. Much like we do when we prepare a meal for ourselves (of course we cook our meats but you know what I mean).

Its a personal choice really. But it does take time to learn it and research it. I wouldn't have it any other way

Here are some sites to look at:

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.barfworld.com/
http://www.njboxers.com/
http://www.rawlearning.com/

[MerlinsHope]

I just have to get in on this conversation as well.

To the person who is asking about scientific studies regarding raw. No, currently there are no real published scientific studies with the exception of the work done by Dr. Tom Lonsdale of NZ, and by L. David Mech, PhD of California.
I'd like to point out that all the scientific studies done on kibble didn't about to much either. Look at what kibble has done to dogs.

What is important is that you understand the nature of your pet and not humanize it but over applying human values.
Your dog is not a human being. It's nutritional needs are different.

To the person who claims to have left their meat out too long so their dog got sick;
- sorry, that's absolute poppycock. A dog's stomach is 50% hydrochlorlic acid. Your dog could easily eat 3 week old, sunbaked road kill and STILL wouldn't get sick.
There is a good chance that your dog was ill to begin with and would have gotten sick anyways.

This is another caveat that many people have to understand is that, they come to Raw BECAUSE their dog is stick. Many come to raw as their last resort to try and solve pre-existing problems, so naturally they often do not get the results they are looking for, because in fact their dogs are sick to begin with.

To the person who suggested trying pre-made raw food.
- that is exactly the same mentality that led people to feed their dogs poor quality kibble in the first place. If you think that kibble is poorly regulated by our government, not fit for human consumption raw meat is even less regulated. Don't you want to know what you are putting into your dog's mouth? You certainly don't with premade raw. You think you do , but you don.t. - also it's more expensive than regular meat , and contains additives- many that are unwanted.

Feeding a dog raw food means going to a store, buying a variety of fresh meats and feeding it to your dog.
In many areas there are now organized groups who group purchase whole rabbits and chicks and other types of meats.

If we stick to Mother Nature's mentality, rarely do we go wrong. You dog needs 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% offal in their diet. It's really that simple. They may not need these ratios in every single meal, but they need a generalized version of that rule.

Tomorrow if your dog caught a rabbit, it would only have two kidneys, one heart, one liver and a bunch of meat.

The next day if your dog caught a cow or a chicken or a fish, it would STILL only have one heart, one liver and a bunch of meat and some bone... so to properly raw feed you have to start thinking in those terms. We never ever use supplements, but we do ensure appropriate EFA's (Essential Fatty acids), by serving fatty fish several times a week (sardines/herring/salmon/smelts or anchovies)

To the person who said that wolves eat the stomachs of rumens, as observed for more than 25 years by world renowned reasearcher L . David Mech, wolves shakeout the stomachs contents before consuming them, so in fact, they do not eat alot of vegetables, this is not a true statement at all, and whatever vegetable matter is still in the stomach is pre-digested. That is why green tripe has become a relatively important component for raw feeders.

We are a rescue here and have been feeding raw to every rescue that comes in here. We've been doing this for over 10 years. We have kidney dogs here, liver dogs here, FSF dogs here, Amyloid dogs here, IBD dogs here, we have demodex dogs here, candidae alibans dogs here, and not once, not once have we regretted feeding them raw, or have seen any detrimental effect due to raw.

Our vet, is observing our feeding techniques, because this year alone we've brought him over 72 dogs in varying health conditions, from good to downright near death, and he gets to see them achieve wellness with virtually no drugs and other chemical intervention.

We have to feed a lot of dogs here. Shopping for our meat takes time, just like shopping for our families. It means you follow the specials, develop liason with butchers, hunters, taxidermists, and more.

A few weeks ago, I put an ad on freecycle.ca asking for freezer-burn or freezer aged meat and in less than 1 week we picked up over 300 lbs of meat.

The only time I've seen dogs not profit from a raw diet, is when it is entirely mis-applied or completely mis-understood by the feeder - or worse a feeder who consistently buys cheap, bony types of meats, tries to cut corners. I can't tell you how many people think that a raw diet means chicken necks and hamburger meat.

I think the bottom line with entry level raw feeders is that they have to make a conscious decision as to whether they ARE going to feed raw or not, but if they don't, don't come up with bizarre and weird excuses to try to exhonorate their feelings. You either DO want to feed raw or you don't . And if you don't.. fine, but then seek out as much as possible, quality commercial foods that hopefully add to your dog's wellness rather than take away from your dog's wellness.

You will find in the long run however, that a quality bag of dog food costs just as much, or more, than an appropriate raw regime.
So the moral of that story is GOOD NUTRITION is NOT CHEAP.


It has been my personal observation that people who complain about the cost of a raw regime do not purchase quality kibble either.
and that's just my personal observation to date.



OK off my soapbox now.
Cheers
MM

PS - Please vote for us!
Every vote counts
http://www.care2.com/animalsheltercontest/76306

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by MerlinsHope

What is important is that you understand the nature of your pet and not humanize it but over applying human values.
Your dog is not a human being. It's nutritional needs are different.

I think that's the most important bit of information all dog and cat owners must learn. Studying the anatomy of one's pet is a great beginning before reading up on raw feeding, if only to better inform oneself. The nutritional needs of different animals are indeed not the same as those of humans.

ETA: Merlin'sHope, can you share the name or clinic of your vet with us?

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by TulipRoxy

I can see her point, but at the same time this doesnt stop the vets from feeding dogfood that has been known to cause kidney damage and death. Sort of a double standard, dontcha think?

Thanks TuilipRoxy and woof99, I see your point on raw feeding and liability, better to have ignorant clients, than educated clients just incase they sue .

Vets don't have to take responsibility for what is in the food they sell, it is the manufacturer that would get sued.

[MerlinsHope]

Dr. R. Langill
www.liesseanimalclinic.com

[Jim Hall]

excellent post merlin thank you

[MerlinsHope]

Edit...


re the kidney damage food.
One has to understand the relationship between the commercial dog food industry and the veterinary industry and the consumer industry and the fact that vets are not nutrionalists and rely on the information provided to them by the food manufacturers themselves..

[BenMax]

For all those that do not Merlin's Hope rescue - I must tell you that they are one of the finest. Good people doing an amazing job! Hats off to you gals and guys at Merlin's Hope.