Hunter killed

[MyBirdIsEvil]

However, if you think that most hunters have this at heart, I have to say you'd be wrong.

I can't say what people have at heart, I'm just going by what most people DO around here. Plenty of people LIKE killing deer and not debating that, I'm just debating the fact that grocery store meat is lower impact than hunted meat.

I don't get how you think hunting is fun, or a sport. If it's the only way to eat, great. But as I said earlier, all of these proponents of the natural food chain: I don't see you laying out your kids (or yourself, if you're weak) in front of one of our natural predators to keep the chain going. There's something to be said for being civilized, IMO.

I don't get how people thinking hunting is fun or a sport either
As long as someone isn't going around poaching or destroying things in the process I don't really care what enjoyment they get out of it, you can't MAKE people hate killing deer if they like it. What people think while killing something is their own thoughts, I'm not going to harrass them for thinking something or enjoying doing something. If they're not breaking the law or causing a huge impact on the land and the animals it's their personal choice to enjoy it or not enjoy, though I don't understand how it would be enjoyable
As far as the food chain, I see kind of what you're saying, but how is raising something specifically to kill it better? Civilization doesn't necessarily cater to the health of wild animals, even by not hunting, so I don't get the comparison.
Being "civilized" isn't necessarily a good thing depending on which way you look at it. Whether something is civilized or not largely depends on the opinion of the observer.
If you eat meat, whether it's hunted or not, SOMEONE is killing on your behalf, and I just don't see the point of criticizing the hunter or butcher because you're not the one doing the horrible task yourself.

[Golden Girls]

Originally Posted by MyBirdIsEvil

If you eat meat, whether it's hunted or not, SOMEONE is killing on your behalf, and I just don't see the point of criticizing the hunter or butcher because you're not the one doing the horrible task yourself.

I agree. And speaking of butchers or people working in slaughterhouses you'd have to either be made of steel or not care but cutting up animals is just not something I think most people can do. I refer them to like people in Texas Chainsaw Masacre

[chico2]

Well guys,nothing anybody says will make me change my mind about hunting:sad:but that's ok,no hard feelings..
We once stopped at a red light,somewhere in Pennsylvania on our way south,a pickup truck pulls up,it was loaded with deer,must have been at least 20..hoofed legs and beautiful heads hanging off the truck:sad:
My husband thought it might have been roadkill,judging by the 3 people in the cab,I'd say they were hunters, I was sick for the rest of the trip.
As for roadkill,the highway through Pa,WV and Virginia are a horror-story,beautiful scenery,the best roads,but one year I counted 150 dead deer+numerous dogs,cats etc..
The BIG hunters dressed in their camouflage(sp??)many with beagles running all over the road,is enough to give you nightmares.
What 2Beagleboys,told us,makes me sad for those two little adorable pups,I've seen enough of what happens to these dogs if they do not perform and where they end up:sad: Not all hunters love their dogs,most are penned outside,until one day when they are of no use and will have the same fate as the deer or whatever the owner hunted.
Sorry for ranting,just when we were having a cool off period

[Maya]

Originally Posted by MyBirdIsEvil

I'm not saying my b/f doesn't enjoy shooting, but the only reason he goes to get a deer is for meat.

So he doesn't hunt for the shooting/killing part but he enjoys it? Do you think he would go if he didn't enjoy the shooting? Maybe there wouldn't be so much debate on this topic if hunter's admitted they do it because they enjoy it. The people that eat supermarket meat usually admit they like to eat it and that they are hypocritical for doing so.

Originally Posted by MyBirdIsEvil

Many people around here aren't very well off. They save up plenty of money to buy a deer tag and bag a deer, but the thing is it would be more expensive for them in the long run to go to the store and buy beef (or any other meat for that matter) per pound.

That doesn't make sense because if you can save up plenty then you are doing okay (maybe not great) but okay. Poor people or the not well off can't save up any money, they can't even go into debt because they don't have credit.

Originally Posted by Prin

When I used to print pics in a photolab, I got the "undoing" of the deer and moose pics all the time at this time of year. It was so horrible. I really hope they took the pics for educational purposes and not for entertainment..

Ya um it was education.

Well off I go to get some grain products that at one time were providing shelter to cute little rodent families on the field until that big tractor came along. :sad:

[MyBirdIsEvil]

And speaking of butchers or people working in slaughterhouses you'd have to either be made of steel or not care but cutting up animals is just not something I think most people can do.

Well most people can reap the benefits of what the slaughterhouses do without so much as thinking about the animal that died, so who is the bad guy? Slaughterhouses are catering to the customers, meat eaters pay them to kill animals for food.

If you're sitting there eating meat you're distancing yourself from the animal a lot more than someone who is butchering the meat or skinning the animal and everything. That person KNOWS it's an animal, it doesn't mean they get some sick pleasure out of it, most don't. As you said, most people wouldn't choose to work in a slaughterhouse, most people do it because they have to work and make money, or sometimes it's just what their family has always done. Slaughterhouses smell bad, they reak of blood and fecal matter, it's a nasty job, and if you eat meat I think it's hypocritical to criticize those people for putting food on your table.
I'm not saying no butchers or whatnot enjoy their job, because many do, but it's usually because they're good at their job, not because they get some sick pleasure out of killing or cutting up dead animals.

[Golden Girls]

I used to but haven't eaten meat since being educted regarding factory farming. It'll be 3 years and although I still haven't found a medium yet to replace some dairy products I will in time.

My comment wasn't really about butcher's get sick pleasure just one would need to have a certain mentality is all.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

That doesn't make sense because if you can save up plenty then you are doing okay (maybe not great) but okay. Poor people or the not well off can't save up any money, they can't even go into debt because they don't have credit.

How does budgeting money to make a necessary purchase make you well off? If someone is buying food from the store they're having to budget that money no matter how much they make. If someone is using deer meat to feed themselves they're having to budget money for the tag and everything, I don't get what you're saying.

So he doesn't hunt for the shooting/killing part but he enjoys it? Do you think he would go if he didn't enjoy the shooting?

Yeah, I think he would still go. If he couldn't go I would be out doing it, and I don't in ANY way enjoy killing something. It's not fair to share in everyone elses deer meat and not share any of your own. For those of you that don't eat wild meat that's not a problem, but I do.
My b/f enjoys being able to shoot and bring home his own food, he doesn't enjoy having to kill, that's not what he's out there for. I'm not saying no hunters are, but we personally don't enjoy death, we get deer to feed ourselves and share with everyone else.

If I'm fileting a chicken from the store, or cutting up beef to make stew, what is the difference between that and cutting up a whole deer? No matter what I know it was an animal, the only difference with grocery meat is that I don't have to see where it came from, but I still KNOW. I don't get sick enjoyment out of seeing something dead, but I definately like the taste of the meat like any meat eater does .
Butchering deer isn't exactly a fun job, it's tedious and takes several hours depending on the size. It's nice to know that YOU were the one who put the work into it, you know where it came from, and it makes it more enjoyable when you have the final benefit of consuming the deer.
This all may seem gross to some of you, but just because you don't have to see this happening at your slaughterhouse before you eat the meat doesn't make it better.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

My comment wasn't really about butcher's get sick pleasure just one would need to have a certain mentality is all.

I would agree with that,though there are plenty of people who work in slaughterhouses yet don't eat meat because it's pretty gruesome, I just think that's interesting. My grandmother didn't eat pork for a long time after working in a processing plant.
Maybe if more people had to slaughter their own meat they would be eating veggies instead . Personally I'm not grossed out by cutting up meat like many people are, it's just a task I have to do if I want to eat it.

If I don't do it myself someone else had to put the work into it before I could eat it, so I don't see much of a difference.

[coppperbelle]

Not sure if this guy is a hunter but you guys are going to love this one.

www.pressrepublican.com

This guy lives a few miles from me in the country. I saw the suspect deer on Saturday and noticed how beautiful he was.

[Maya]

Originally Posted by MyBirdIsEvil

That doesn't make sense because if you can save up plenty then you are doing okay (maybe not great) but okay. Poor people or the not well off can't save up any money, they can't even go into debt because they don't have credit.

How does budgeting money to make a necessary purchase make you well off? If someone is buying food from the store they're having to budget that money no matter how much they make. If someone is using deer meat to feed themselves they're having to budget money for the tag and everything, I don't get what you're saying.

I said "doing okay" if you can save money, not "well off". You are very lucky that you don't understand what I'm saying. People who do not have money cannot budget. If you go to the store and you were only able to purchase a few vegetables and half dozen eggs for the week but couldn't afford to even buy meat than you don't have money to budget or save. I'm just pointing out that the argument that people hunt because it's cheaper or saves money is weak. You'd have to have insurance, gas money, guns, licence, good clothing energy time, doesn't sound like you'd really have a need to go hunting unless it was for the activity itself.

[2beagleboys]

What 2Beagleboys,told us,makes me sad for those two little adorable pups,I've seen enough of what happens to these dogs if they do not perform and where they end up Not all hunters love their dogs,most are penned outside,until one day when they are of no use and will have the same fate as the deer or whatever the owner hunted.....

To Chico2... your insinuation about my pups couldnt be more wrong..:sad:
Oh yes I hunt and look forward to it each year, and I own 2 beagle pups.. putting 2 and 2 together I can see why you think that..but you are wrong..

Ive seen hunters run with packs for yrs.. and seen many lost to the hunter because they are either to young or training was of thier own doing..its very sad..the hunter cant keep up..its as simple as that..or they dont come back to the call or signal..

I pondered over a few breeds of dogs before deciding on the beagle, it was appropriate for me and my family..Ive had small and larger dogs..the choice was right..I do apoloigize for some things said.

Id like to give my comment on the topic at hand(first post) to bad there wasnt more said about this hunt..for I see the 70 yr old man to propably not be the hunter he used to be..he eyes would not be what they used to be..and the one who took the shot..needs to get his eyes checked too..for maybe he was as old as the man shot.. whos knows...I feel bad for the families..
I would like to know if this was private land or crown land..who was allowed to be there..?? the man dead or the shooter?..or both..I dont hunt crown land for those reasons alone..to many hunters..and some not responsible enough to be there..the man taking the shot should have seen orange it is the LAW here and some just dont wear it..pitty for them.. was he?
Yes plain stupid for the shooter to take a shot that MIGHT get him a deer..Most avid hunters will only take a shot if they know he is going to go down..Bow hunters.. mainly..Ive never missed a deer..and have let many go if the shot is not there..that is the challange of the hunt and the respect we give the animals..
Do I think about the life of the deer I just took..yes I DO.. I give him all the credit he deserves.. how lovely he is and still is..Ive only one trophy on my wall..Ive shot many deer but only one buck hangs here.. the rest go for donation and to family
hope you all dont run me down because of what I have said..

[Frenchy]

You guys posted 2 pages in a half since last time I was here I did read all the posts, and I have to tell you, except for one person (who has left for another forum ) I got to tell you , you are all being pretty civilized I tought this was going to get ugly but no. I understand both sides (one a bit less than the other ) I think we are the first one to blame. Surconsommation (sorry don't know that word in english) over consumption ? The slaughter houses, hunting. Over population by these animals are not true ,they just don't have enough space anymore. We are building and building over their natural habitat.... does that make sense? ( that's why I don't usually get involve in threads like this, It's hard for me to translate what's on my mind ) And the fact that I hate guns

[Frenchy]

Oups,I was wrong on one point....

[MyBirdIsEvil]

You'd have to have insurance, gas money, guns, licence, good clothing energy time, doesn't sound like you'd really have a need to go hunting unless it was for the activity itself.

You're assuming everyone that hunts spends the same amount of money on everything.

Gas money - what makes you think everyone drives miles and miles to go hunt? Some people do, and those people aren't saving any money, but I'm talking about myself and the people I know.

Guns - Wow, someone must really be an idiot if they have to buy a gun to go hunting every year. Guns are usually a one time purchase, and are many times passed down between people. Sometimes families get money together just to buy a rifle for a child to use later when he's old enough to hunt.
Also, an ok gun to go hunting around here doesn't necessarily cost that much compared to it's use.

Good clothing - How many people buy coveralls every single year. Here you don't even necessarily need anything but your normal clothes because it's not always cold. You need an orange vest and hat, which oftentimes you can get cheap or free, and that's not an everytime purchase if you don't have much money. Up there where it gets really really cold it may be necessary to put a lot of money into hunting, but not here.

energy time - That's relative.

doesn't sound like you'd really have a need to go hunting unless it was for the activity itself

- I'd be happy to actually add up all the costs of us hunting and compare it to the price of beef or chicken at the store, it's lower for us and the people that hunt like we do.

I said "doing okay" if you can save money, not "well off".

Well someone who spends the same amount of money to hunt as we do is going to have a lot less money if they buy the same amount of meat at the store. Like I said, I can add it up for you if you want. We already figured up what it costs to hunt vs what it costs to get the same amount of meat at the store.
Just because you're spending less on each purchase of meat at the store doesn't mean you're spending less overall. The cost of food is also different depending on what region you live in so that will effect how much cheaper or more expensive it is to butcher up a deer instead.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Over population by these animals are not true ,they just don't have enough space anymore. We are building and building over their natural habitat.... does that make sense?

Well, raising livestock, grain, and veggies for us to eat doesn't give them back any habitat, so what do you propose?

Humans overbreed, overconsume, overbuild, etc., I don't think anyone is debating that.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

In any case you guys, I enjoy arguing, but I think I quit until tomorrow.

[technodoll]

MyBird... respectfully i must say that absolutely *nothing* you have said, argued, and counter-pointed today has changed my views on hunting one iota i have always hated the entire concept and always will - and I am proud of that. now my two brothers live in a completely opposite world (yes i have hunters in my family and we just don't "go there" ) so you can imagine i've seen and heard all of this before... but still. I just can't endorse hunting in any way, shape or form... sorry.

[erykah1310]

Originally Posted by Maya

Is it really just to save money, eat ethical meat, save the environment etc. How would it save money if you factor in time and other costs involved, you'd have to be doing okay to afford to go hunting in the first place.

Not necessarily, for us here, hunting is waking up early in the morning and heading into our back yard...
No real expenses there, just the licence, and butcher fee's. For a freezer full of food its very reasonable.
Personally I dont go hunting... why??? because I know I would break into hysterics when the animal was shot. Yes , I enjoy the burger but dont want to see the cow die! So many of us are like this.

I dont expect anyone to change their opinions about hunting, either you are alright with it or your not.. thats it.

And Yes techno, majority of the hunters around here save the bones and organs for thier dogs. Or atleast give it to someone who has dogs.

Dont get me wrong, we have our fair share of poachers around here to but honestly there is nothing more insulting to a "real" and ethical hunter than a poacher, and most of the "good" hunters wouldnt think twice about reporting a poacher. Our neighbour when i was a kid was accused of poaching, I came home from school to 4 OPP cruisers and 2 MNR trucks ( with dogs) parked infront of my house. I was terrified that something horrible had happened to my dad. They removed the neighbours guns, meat, ammo and truck.. He was being charged!!! However he hadnt poached and the whole ordeal was sorted out in a few weeks. His meat was gone forever but he regained his rights to hunt. Had he actually have poached he was facing jail time!
It is taken REALLY serious.

I dont think of hunting as a "sport" for if one has that mentality only about it then yes there is only a " thrill " behind the kill.
Where as ethical hunters also get a " thrill" but dont only go out to seek it. If they shoot then they are thrilled but if they dont... better luck next year!

[technodoll]

and let's not even TALK about those organized, fixed "hunts"... rich people paying to chase a drugged bear in a rigged environment, accompanied by dogs and a troup of aides with hi-tech weapons, hunting that poor animal down into terrorized exhaustion, in which a bullet to the head is actually a relief to the whole ordeal - that is not only SICK and ILLEGAL but it happens in our own country... :sad:

[meb999]

Originally Posted by chico2

Well guys,nothing anybody says will make me change my mind about hunting but that's ok,no hard feelings..

That's what I like about you Chico....you're very sweet, even when you're arguing your point of view

[erykah1310]

Originally Posted by technodoll

and let's not even TALK about those organized, fixed "hunts"... rich people paying to chase a drugged bear in a rigged environment, accompanied by dogs and a troup of aides with hi-tech weapons, hunting that poor animal down into terrorized exhaustion, in which a bullet to the head is actually a relief to the whole ordeal - that is not only SICK and ILLEGAL but it happens in our own country... :sad:

I whole heartedly agree with you there TD... that is sick!
That is NOT hunting!

[Maya]

Originally Posted by MyBirdIsEvil

energy time - That's relative.

Everything is relative.

Originally Posted by MyBirdIsEvil

You're assuming everyone that hunts spends the same amount of money on everything.

No I hadn't thought about the different amounts people spend. I know that I've not been able to afford a car or enough food to stay healthy(literally), so I do see some level of wealth needed before you are able to go hunting e.g. able to eat regularly at least. It wouldn't be possible for me to purchase meat from the store on a regular basis or go hunting and if I was able to I don't think I could bring myself to hurt anything directly. I am guilty enough because I prepare meat for my b/f sometimes.

Originally Posted by erykah1310

Not necessarily, for us here, hunting is waking up early in the morning and heading into our back yard...
No real expenses there, just the licence, and butcher fee's. For a freezer full of food its very reasonable

Fair enough and relative, people with low incomes rarely have big freezer's unfortunatley. Part of the problem with a very low income is that you don't have enough money to purchase anything in bulk and end up spending more on certain things in the long run.

I think in the end it really comes down to the spiritual and ethical aspect more than anything else.

[Maya]

Originally Posted by technodoll

drugged bear in a rigged environment

That is truly awful.:sad: I didn't know about that.

[Prin]

Originally Posted by technodoll

and let's not even TALK about those organized, fixed "hunts"...

Remember the kids' book "Danny Champion of the World"? Love that book. They steal all the pheasants from this fenced in area where rich people go to "hunt"...

[technodoll]

Remember the kids' book "Danny Champion of the World"?

never heard of that book.. but it sounds lovely...

[Prin]

It is. It's by Roald Dahl (same guy who wrote Charlie and the Chocolate factory, only this one's not fantastical). The father and son give drugged raisins to the pheasants, and they go up into the trees to sleep and as they pass out and fall out of the trees, they collect them all and set them free when they wake up.

[Bushfire2000]

I'm a Johnny come latlly to this topic. But for what it's worth here are my thoughts.

1. I don't allow deer hunting on my land.
The reason: my brother in law was almost shot by a hunter. My brother in law was carrying "chop" pails across the corral(sp) and had to hit the dirt because someone shot (probably towards the rise of a hill) and just missed him.

2. I know many people who hunt and as far as I can tell all of them take due care and attention. Using all the parts of the animals.

3. Slightly off topic but relevent(sp) to the theme as a farmer I'd like everyone to know that most cattle are very well kept and fed, etc. because a sick or mistreated animal wont get a good price at market.(sad but true)

And here's somthing I've always wondered about: for those who would like us to stop raising and eating cattle. What do you think would happen to the cows if they were not eaten?

Their reason for being is to provide food for humans, without this purpose they would not be at all. They would not be let lose to roam freely.

Sorry about the farming thing when we are talking about Hunting but I couldn't help puting in a word in my defence.

There are always going to be good and bad in all things.
There are bad farmers who treat their animals cruely.
And there are hunters who for example when denied hunting permision, cut fence lines, open gates letting farm animals lose, cut ropes holding dugout pumps (depriving the farm house it's water supply). All of which I've had first hand experience with.

[t.pettet]

The hunters around here treat the season more like a 'red-neck' macho drunken get-together than a necessity to fill the freezer. They get all fired up with their baying hounds, cases of beer, expensive rifles and the latest tracking devices, including 3 and 4 wheelers. It is a far cry from a lone hunter living in the wilderness waiting for hours in the bush to nab one deer to put on his family's table. These goofs ride around with the slaughtered creatures hanging out of their pick-ups making sure everyone sees how brave and skilled they are. It reminds me of little boys comparing sizes of their private parts. I detest the whole concept and double the feed rations I put out daily for the deer that hang around my property during the hunting season just so they'll be more inclined to stay within the safe confines of this area. Have seen the yahoos stopping to watch the deer on my property so I have posted no hunting signs all over. The majority of them know that if their dog's wander on here they're usually never seen again and many have show open hostility for my animal rights views. After having witnessed these beautiful, graceful creatures grazing or watching their fawns playing or all settling down for afternoon naps I cannot fathom how anyone could not feel some remorse over killing them.

[coppperbelle]

Feeding of wild deer is prohibited in New York state. I hear that there are even helicopters that fly over looking for piles of carrots left by hunters to lure deer to their property.
I put up posted signs to keep hunters off my land and my dogs wear orange vests from September to December when they are outside. When I take walks I talk to the deer and tell them they will be safe on my land.
Although I am not a fan of hunting I do understand why people hunt and respect their right to do so.


Nobody commented on my article but a neighbor of mine in the country was killed on Sunday by one of his deer. Apparently he kept the deer to train beagles. I have passed many times and wondered why he kept them. He entered the deer pen on Sunday morning and was attacked by his buck. He later died in the hospital.

[chico2]

Copperbelle,I did not comment on the article,don't really know how I feel about it,or enough about the victim.
I don't like to see anybody die,but in this case maybe karma kicked in,deer are wild animals and like with any other wild animal kept in captivity,this kind of thing can happen.

2Beagleboys,If I was wrong about your 2 pups,I apologize.

TPettet,your view of most hunters,unfortunately mirrors mine
The half a dozen or so,that we know,are certainly not in need of meat for their families.It's macho male bonding and partytime